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Buki
Hired Hero
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posted November 08, 2014 09:31 PM |
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Hello, for me is :
1 Hydra
2 Treant
3 Green Dragon
4 Seraphin
5 Titan
6 Sword Master
7 Arcane Eagle
8 nothing
9 Black Dragon .... I really hated them in H6 their model was very ugly and ass well was the Skeletal Dragon in SoD.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 08, 2014 09:41 PM |
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Kimarous said:
Awesome fur cape, now a regular red cape with an awkward tuft of fur, and the stuff around his waist? Multiple layers with multiple colours, all covered in this gaudy, overly-intricate pattern. Oh, and throw in some tiny chains for the heck of it! *snaps fingers* Two last things: make his boots glossy and enlarge his already overblown pauldrons. *steps back* PERFECT!
Ashan has the silly tendency to overdecorate. In that case more is less..
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted November 08, 2014 10:21 PM |
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Edited by Kimarous at 22:22, 08 Nov 2014.
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Elvin said:
Kimarous said:
Awesome fur cape, now a regular red cape with an awkward tuft of fur, and the stuff around his waist? Multiple layers with multiple colours, all covered in this gaudy, overly-intricate pattern. Oh, and throw in some tiny chains for the heck of it! *snaps fingers* Two last things: make his boots glossy and enlarge his already overblown pauldrons. *steps back* PERFECT!
Ashan has the silly tendency to overdecorate. In that case more is less..
True. Sure, sometimes the intricacies work out great; if this is what the Rakshasa is going to look like (and judging from the leaked unit icons, it likely will), that is infinitely better than the solid blue look from H5. That said, the more plain appearances can look at lot better as well; I'll take H7's Sister over H6's Vestal any day. Oftentimes, it comes down to the execution of the piece - sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and more often than not it's a mixed bag.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted November 09, 2014 01:01 AM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 01:03, 09 Nov 2014.
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I know it is nothing spectacular, but did you notice that Dragonsteel got a new icon on the November screenshots?
It did not. Sorry.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 09, 2014 01:29 AM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 09 Nov 2014. |
Edited by TD at 11:55, 09 Nov 2014.
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Why do I vote for Blade?(This is just my opinions/speculation based on info we've got and based on my experience with past heroes games)
Diversity:
Heroes games in the past have always had before heroes 6 distinction between factions and tiers. Different factions have had different balancing and focus between shooter/melee/caster/walker/flier types of units. Currently we have:
Haven: flier, 2 shooters, 5 walkers
Sylvan: 0-1 fliers, 2 shooters, 5-6 walkers depending on if pixie is real flier.
(Malassa's Thousand faces: flier, 2 shooters, 5 walkers)
So from existing factions we will have 3/4 so far with the same basic build. Remember heroes 6? They also tried to make factions from same generic basic build and used very different abilities on them. Result? I didn't feel them all that different, they all just felt bland copies of each other. If you felt factions of Heroes 6 very distinctive great teams, that's good for you! In my eyes the creature-types are the single biggest differentiator, next being abilities and stats quite equally.
Game-play:
So what does The Blade From the Shadows do different? The major difference is in unit-types and playstyle. It offers 1 flier and 2 teleporters that allow (and require) you to adapt and change tactics constantly. Instead of the generic build it gives you very skillfully demanding option. While it is not as easy to play as other options (it being so fragile) it can be so much more rewarding if you have what it takes to master it. It takes immense amount of skill and tactical insight to play blade as just positioning your units right is critical. Sometimes it will also mean that you have to be ready to sacrifice units and live with the decisions. This is very unforgiving line-up if you make mistakes (or let's just say have no foresight of things to come).
Another major difference is the use of strike and return units. This game uses a new feature called the flanking system. What it does is give you extra damage if you attack enemy from sides or great extra damage if you can hit enemy from the back. Why is this important? Unlike with shooters who have range and penalties, units that have strike and return can hit enemy in the back or sides and return to safety afterwards and deal full damage + bonus damage even if enemy has cover which only effects shooters. The flanking is a system Blade takes full use of. It has assasin with special skill for back-stabbing, 2 strike and return units, but also fliers who are great units to use with this system.
With fliers(I will refer to teleporters as fliers from now on also since by mechanic of teleporter is basically just "upgraded" flier) you also have another advantage. They are and always have been multipurpose units that play roles depending situation. The advantage of fliers cannot be overstated (as developers said during live demo while fighting fort battle). Another big feature of the game is the maze-like battlefields. Unlike in previous HoMM-games you don't have the "open" battlefields here. The fields consist of "routes/lanes" created by obstacles and this is the biggest advantage of fliers. It allows fliers to switch between "lanes" over the obstacles to either block, flank or dodge enemies as situation requires.
Because there are lanes blade can take full use of its entire roster. With lurker you can debuff and shoot enemies advancing to your location while weakening advancing enemies with strike and return units. Assasin is best kept hidden till you can get enemy close enough to strike from the back. Once enemy closes in you can block routes with minotaur(and hydra if you want to use it). With fliers you'll need to asses situation ever since start. You need to decide if you should: go after enemy shooters(if they exist), keep fliers available for defense(blocking or assist by flanking), go encounter advancing enemies or halt their reinforcements.
Sieges:
In sieges blade is a great line. It has great synergy between dragon and nightmare both basically having debuff-aura to effect several enemies at once. Faceless is more tricky unit to use as at times it may be beneficial to not leave it outside the walls as more units inside means less space to maneuver for the enemy. For you the space isn't as tight naturally since you have fliers inside so meat-wall doesn't bother you.
Blade also takes full advantage of the changes in magic. The dark priests(dungeon heroes) are masters of dark magic(unlike in the past HoMM-games where they used to be masters of destruction). To specify they are masters of illusions and deception, but also mind-controlling and life-draining spells. How does this relate to anything? This is very important to prevent you from being overrun inside enemy walls if you're against strong enemy army. Use of phantom forces/illusions takes turns from enemy troops to destroy AND it prevents them from flanking you by taking room. IF phantom forces works same way it does in heroes 5 it also allows you to deal great deal of damage and at best takes 3 attacks for each illusion. It also helps you with survival of troops with vampyrism. In case black dragon doesn't have magic immunity(not referenced yet) this could even be quite OP strategy, but I believe it will get it. Before you get inside the castle you can also take use of the dark-magic by casting spells like pupper-master, frenzy, blind and confusion to weaken enemy shooters or otherwise troublesome units. With Lurker I suggest using debuffs primarily since you won't do full damage inside castles at any rate if it's something you need to seperately "cast".
What of the other units then? I believe you should move closer to walls with minotaur, and skirmisher while keeping assasin a little behind them. Once a hole opens on the wall you can start using skirmishes inside also(so far we have not seen any kind of mot) or if enemy comes out you can weaken it with skirmisher and engage with minotaur/assasin afterwards.
Creeping:
As in the guerrilla tactic I described above blade offers great synergy straight off the bat. You can use lurker to shoot, skirmisher to back-stab while assasin waits for enemy to get closer. Once weakened by the skirmisher/lurker you can go behind with assasin also to do great damage to the enemy. It's very defensive strategy, but I believe it fits best the units. For shooters it's straight forward moving skirmisher half-way behind cover(unless it has same kind of range as blood fury that could cross whole battle-field) and with assasin you move from cover to cover if possible.
Elites are easy to incorporate to same strategy as explained before. I'd personally take nightmare as first of them as it seems more durable to prevent/lower losses from creeping. Naturally you can and should use the spells as in the siege with creeping also as you start gaining them. For example decay is a great spell to use early on as pure damage-spell.
Dungeon, what is it about?(in terms of game-play)
In the world of Ashan dungeon would best be described as faction of assasins. It uses stealth, speed, poisons and tactics to overcome the fact that it hasn't been that durable. It has or has had:
Poisoning units like Assasin and manticore
Tanking units such as minotaur and hydra
Fast-striking units like blood fury, skirmisher
Mobile heavy hitters such as grim rider and now nightmare
Very hard hitting and mobile black-dragon that has always at least had magical immunity.
Debuff has also been one of the points in dungeon and for that you have lurker(might be active or passive) and black-dragon/nightmare with auras
Units with high mobility/damage, poison abilities and "strike and return" -types I believe best describe what dungeon is about.
Problematic units in the line-ups lore/story/history-wise:
1) Nightmare. It's a corrupted/cursed version of what unicorns used to be. While it does have history with dungeon before Ubisoft took over from Heroes 4 I don't think it truly fits dungeon of Ashan. Kimmundi did state that they will make it as completely new unit, but heroes 5 has nightmare on inferno(roughly 100 years after h7). While you can explain that dungeon hero moves to inferno taking them with them it just doesn't feel right.
2) Troglodyte. This guy was never part of the world of Ashan. In heroes 5 you have two underground factions(dungeon and fortress), but you never see this unit or any reference to it. To me this is just a nostalgic unit, a handout to h3 fans to be honest that really doesn't fit the Ashan dungeon.
3) Strider. The unit has several problems with me.
3.1) it's a golem(well a construct, but don't get hung up on the word. We don't even know what kind of categorization the game has). There has always been this unwritten rule of golems belonging to academy.
3.2) it's made from the the very rare shadowsteel. Getting small piece of shadowsteel is going to cost ton of gold if past rare-prices/ratios are even close. Getting whole golem or golem "plated" with it for far less is inconsistency. What did they do, strap faceless in chains and bleed the guys half-dead for the shadowsteel? Faceless are supposed to be roughly equals to angels(not pure power)Would they really still help them by controlling them after all that? Besides faceless are dying race possibly so bleeding them out seems a bit sad(well they said their situation is not known, heck maybe in reality they even have secret nation and have infiltrated all the factions for all I know and betray dungeon at some point...).
3.3) Mind-control has always been only usable on living things, never on golems.
3.4) If golems are mind-controlled and enemy captures town, wouldn't the faceless be gone and these guys useless? I mean faceless would just take enemy form and escape...
3.5) If you consider them golems/automatons that can function without the faceless, wouldn't they fight against you, being "programmed" to fight for dungeon against others...?
3.6) No references to this unit in h5.
4) Medusa. Now this unit has at least story from h6 as renegade pearl-priestess. What I find sad about this unit is that if sanctuary gets added in expansions/dlc it has couple problems:
4.1) Having both pearl-priestess and medusa at same time will bring about two too similar units
4.2) If sanctuary loses "medusa" it loses very essential unit.
Also in 100 years however this unit has disappeared by time of h5 with all references missing.
Medusa is a very borderline unit for me as to can I accept it, but much better than strider and troglodyte.
Important notes regarding this text and important info generally:
1) These are my personal views and opinions. It's all speculation based on the info we have and also based on my past experience with HoMM-games.
2) Take note of the changes regarding magic in h7. You can only learn the best spell(s) (and skills I think) of your own "type" meaning dark-magic with dungeon. Unlike in the past where you could get best spells for all schools if you wanted, now you you will not get Implosion for example with dungeon (while it will be reserved for necro, the most likely prime-elemental team) What this means is that even if you want to go with "traditional" destruction magic-line that has been typical for past dungeons you will end up missing the most powerful spells. Each team will also be missing a spell-school(except academy) which will most likely be light for dungeon(being the opposite).
3) I believe:
Dragon will get terrifying presence(referenced as aura above) and magical immunity while they are not written anywhere.
Hydra will get multi-attack, referenced in description
Faceless will get "no retalation" and mind-control, referenced in description
Regarding troglodyte I don't count it as teleporter. The way marzhin explained the ability he made it sound like mini-teleport you gotta activate and it takes your whole turn not allowing you to attack afterwards. It seems good skill for changing lanes to block unit in a hurry, fitting the tank-role. He also confirmed you can move past walls with it.
4) All in all I just find Blade fitting my image of what ashan dungeon should be like the closest. It's line taken to rather extreme to me, which is not completely bad thing. I have always wanted to get a faction with some serious challenge to play, but still being fuctional. Shield I considered by units(except troglo and strider) to fit ashan dungeon as variant. To me Faces is just the generic "anybody/nobody"-faction with no real distinction. And as I said, these are just my opinions.
PS thank you for taking your time to read this.
Edit added to my profile on dev blog aswell)
PPS And the reason I wrote this is so people would stop the bashing and insulting of blade-voters. Blade offers valid tactics/line-up and has good reasons for existing. You're the ones always telling to trust devs, but at same time calling this line-up non-functional tells the opposite. I do not expect you to change your vote to blade after reading this as it's just my take on things. I do not believe blade has any chance against such easy line-up with classic creatures that faces presents to be honest. In my mind you might as well stop the voting already, at most I see the results changing by a percentile or two to either direction. I'd however hope and ask of you that you stop the hostility on the site.
The last PPS I just added to my profile and is in no way targeted to the heroescommunity here 
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted November 09, 2014 02:27 AM |
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Edited by Kimarous at 02:30, 09 Nov 2014.
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TD said:
3) Strider. The unit has several problems with me.
3.1) it's a golem(well a construct, but don't get hung up on the word. We don't even know what kind of categorization the game has). There has always been this unwritten rule of golems belonging to academy.
3.2) it's made from the the very rare shadowsteel. Getting small piece of shadowsteel is going to cost ton of gold if past rare-prices/ratios are even close. Getting whole golem or golem "plated" with it for far less is inconsistency. What did they do, strap faceless in chains and bleed the guys half-dead for the shadowsteel? Faceless are supposed to be roughly equals to angels(not pure power)Would they really still help them by controlling them after all that? Besides faceless are dying race possibly so bleeding them out seems a bit sad(well they said their situation is not known, heck maybe in reality they even have secret nation and have infiltrated all the factions for all I know and betray dungeon at some point...).
3.3) Mind-control has always been only usable on living things, never on golems.
3.4) If golems are mind-controlled and enemy captures town, wouldn't the faceless be gone and these guys useless? I mean faceless would just take enemy form and escape...
3.5) If you consider them golems/automatons that can function without the faceless, wouldn't they fight against you, being "programmed" to fight for dungeon against others...?
3.6) No references to this unit in h5.
4) Medusa. Now this unit has at least story from h6 as renegade pearl-priestess. What I find sad about this unit is that if sanctuary gets added in expansions/dlc it has couple problems:
4.1) Having both pearl-priestess and medusa at same time will bring about two too similar units
4.2) If sanctuary loses "medusa" it loses very essential unit.
Also in 100 years however this unit has disappeared by time of h5 with all references missing.
Medusa is a very borderline unit for me as to can I accept it, but much better than strider and troglodyte.
3.1) They are possessed combat proxies, not automatons. They are not golems.
3.2) "Shadowsteel pits are obviously rarer on the surface of Ashan than underground." They are not stated to be "very rare." Shadowsteel is also believed to be Faceless blood, and guess who's controlling them, hmm?
3.3) "Striders are possessed by the essence of a Faceless puppeteer, who controls it from the shadows." Sounds more like an "assuming direct control" situation, rather than the vague mind control of the H6 Faceless puppeteer. This also opens up the question on whether or not Striders can be influenced by Mind effects, unless the wholly mindless automatons of the Academy.
3.4) ...okay, fine. Gameplay and story segregation. Still, can't the argument be made for regular Faceless as well?
3.5) See the above two points. I don't consider them automatons.
3.6) H5 didn't reference a lot of things, and some stuff got outright retconned, like the Rakshasa origin.
4.1 & 4.2) Conjecture. Simply being a ranged naga female does not mean neither can exist simultaneously. Coral priestesses have healing magic and an electrical attack, while medusas are bow users with an unknown "mesmerize" ability. The difference in extra abilities alone are enough to make them distinct, and that's not even getting into the potential of weapon-based mechanics.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted November 09, 2014 02:45 AM |
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TD said:
Another big feature of the game is the maze-like battlefields. Unlike in previous HoMM-games you don't have the "open" battlefields here. The fields consist of "routes/lanes" created by obstacles and this is the biggest advantage of fliers. It allows fliers to switch between "lanes" over the obstacles to either block, flank or dodge enemies as situation requires.
Your welcome.
However, from where did you get the info that battlefields will be processed into lanes? The video we were shown as well as confirmation from the twitch stream seems to indicate most of the lane maps are prescripted and there will be generic maps (in fact, in my opinion, most will be, with just obstacles from adventure map interfering).
Also, where do you make assumptions such as this from?
Quote:
) Take note of the changes regarding magic in h7. You can only learn the best spell(s) (and skills I think) of your own "type" meaning dark-magic with dungeon. Unlike in the past where you could get best spells for all schools if you wanted, now you you will not get Implosion for example with dungeon (while it will be reserved for necro, the most likely prime-elemental team) What this means is that even if you want to go with "traditional" destruction magic-line that has been typical for past dungeons you will end up missing the most powerful spells. Each team will also be missing a spell-school(except academy) which will most likely be light for dungeon(being the opposite).
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted November 09, 2014 03:07 AM |
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Edited by Kimarous at 03:12, 09 Nov 2014.
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Absolutely not!
TD said:
3) I believe:
Faceless will get "no retalation" and mind-control, referenced in description
Conjecture and bullsnow! Look, you can "believe" as much as you want, but there's a line between "hopeful" and "delusional"! What description are you babbling about? We have two:
"Faceless/Faceless Assassin: teleporter with strike and return ability. Damage dealer."
"8. Faceless
The Faceless are the children of Malassa. Masters of infiltration, spying, and stealth, the Faceless are the most mysterious and unknown of all the followers of the Dragon Gods. What little can be said of them is that they are clothed in shadow and mystery; if they are perceived at all it is a fleeting image from the corner of the eye, an odd moment of déjà vu, a strange sense that one is being watched...
The Faceless move in the shadows: they enter one shadow and leave from another. The Faceless don't need to speak, they can communicate by telepathy, from mind to mind. They are poorly trusted by their allies and greatly feared by their enemies."
NEITHER of those suggest either mind-control OR no retaliation, and sure as snow not both at once! A teleporting, strike-and-returning, no-retaliation mind-controller is the most broken unit I can imagine, and that's not even going into how broken it would be to have TWO no-retaliation strike-and-return units in the same lineup! You'd have to make them as fragile as wet tissue to make them even remotely balanced, and that even worsens the lore issues with them being Elite units!
At best, you might get Faceless Assassins getting some mind control abilities on upgrade, but anything dealing with no retaliation should be beaten into mulch, set on fire, and thrown into the nearest abyss.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted November 09, 2014 03:27 AM |
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Kimarous said:
At best, you might get Faceless Assassins getting some mind control abilities on upgrade, but anything dealing with no retaliation should be beaten into mulch, set on fire, and thrown into the nearest abyss.
And yet, minotaurs have no retaliation 
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted November 09, 2014 03:39 AM |
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Edited by Kimarous at 03:40, 09 Nov 2014.
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TDL said:
Kimarous said:
At best, you might get Faceless Assassins getting some mind control abilities on upgrade, but anything dealing with no retaliation should be beaten into mulch, set on fire, and thrown into the nearest abyss.
And yet, minotaurs have no retaliation
With regards to the Faceless unit, I obviously meant.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 09, 2014 09:05 AM |
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Edited by TD at 10:02, 09 Nov 2014.
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Ok, I'll just tackle the things in order you asked them Kimarous/TDL/Kimarous
Kimarous:
3.1) As I said, don't get hung up on the wording since we don't even know the classifications of h7, the real message was about things like this belonging to academy. Nice to see you agree with faceless posessing things though.
3.2) Again, you missed the point and I do believe devs said it's very rare on the demo(anyway it was just to emphasize the value.)
3.3) Since it's direct control isn't this exactly what puppeteers do/did...? They had the mind flail or whatever they called it which put part of them/their consciousness into enemy and the whole reason they could only do it once, right?
3.4) The point here was really that faceless isn't really part of the army, but sure you are partially right on this one, I'll admit that.
3.5) Me neither, just had to put it still up as somebody would've said them to be that if I hadn't. Some of the "problems" are connected to each other while excluding some options.
3.6) Yeah, well this a problem for me as I hate retcon as idea in itself. When you decide to place game between two other games to be able to utilize them is also brings limitations. what are the missing numbers here: 3&4,4&5,x&x,6&7? Just saying it should reflect both ends, more so whichever is closest. If you can't do it you shouldn't choose the middle, but rather before h6/after h5 or start over at another universe/world. Each bringing ups and down. I'm quite sure you wouldn't want h3 being retconed or am I wrong? No different for me with h5 being my favourite game and somebody saying "never happened". It's disrespectful for fans of game in question and it's developers. They also retconed gremlins with copyright/trademark problems. For me retcon should be the last option ever to be used in games/series and really, it's just the easy way out.
4.1&4.2) As I said, naga is the borderline case for me. I can see it being part of dungeon, but I wouldn't wanna see another core priestess at sanctuary as result. I just don't want similar units(they are still both shooter nagas...) It's no different for me even with kappa and troglodyte if they decided to use h4 troglo for some reason. It was basically standing kappa with spear though in reality they are totally different creatures. I just rather see some new creatures than similar/ almost copied creatures. And some factions really are much easier to re-new than others. Haven you can always say it's another duchy, inferno another sect/cult/or area they are from this time, sylvan doesn't have h6 ties so it would've been easy, same with academy. Dungeon on the other hand is much harder as it's struggling to survive and it's tied in both ends again(you get the point...)
TDL:
I believe the info regarding "lanes/routes" was from Igromir. The actual wording was "paths", but I just used more suited wordings as the path just sounded wrong/plain. It was on same info where we were told the same guy who did faction balancing on h6 was joining h7 also for the same job and I think it was Igromir. I don't speak russian, I just translated it with google-translate, but so far all the maps seen do seem to support this and what has been said. The obstacles mainly do form "routes" and also bottle-necks which seem to be one of the bigger features/changes in the game.
The magic thing: I think most of it was from the live stream, but I'm always putting bits and pieces together from what devs say here, on dev blog and in the news/writings/interviews. About dungeon being dark it's in the description clearly and it seems somewhat natural since they are making them the assasin-type faction. I actually preferred destructive kind hero, but I get where they are going with this as it fits the theme. Part of text was just my guessing:
a) About you getting the best skills for your magic-type, it just seemed natural that you would be best at both.
b) Necro being prime, also seemed natural choice, but they could also be dark-magic faction. I assume here they don't want two dark-types however.
c) I consider implosion spell as THE prime-magic spell along with time-stasis(hopefully never returning or getting nerfed at least). Again it could be that implosion is fire for example, it is my view on the strongest spell. Same with armageddon being strongest fire-spell reserved for inferno, my view as how I see them.
I do hope/expect Kimmundi and/or marzhin correct me on this as with other things if incorrect.
Kimarous:
Dude, chill...
Only part of those things I "believe" I used in any part was mentioning dragons terrifying presence(only debuff I can think of it having atm, especially considering how much h6 they've used).
As for the faceless: "if they are perceived at all it is a fleeting image from the corner of the eye" does sound like reference to "no retaliation" in my ears.
As for mind-control: "Striders are possessed by the essence of a Faceless puppeteer" it could be that they still get the ability as clearly it's not lost(no, don't get hung up on the puppeteer having actually been that as unit in h6 as it could be more like the skill in this game). And as I said, it's just speculation as is everything till otherwise is revealed/denied.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted November 09, 2014 02:57 PM |
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AFAIK, they spoke about the adventure maps featuring bottlenecks and a more lane-like linear path structure iwth potential bottlenecks rather than the combat map. And even though I loathe the fact (I am sure there will be enough decent mapmakers to circumvent this) that the map is restricted, as long sa the generic combat map is not clumsily filled with various limiting factors, I am good to go.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 09, 2014 04:07 PM |
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Kimarous said:
NEITHER of those suggest either mind-control OR no retaliation, and sure as snow not both at once! A teleporting, strike-and-returning, no-retaliation mind-controller is the most broken unit I can imagine, and that's not even going into how broken it would be to have TWO no-retaliation strike-and-return units in the same lineup! You'd have to make them as fragile as wet tissue to make them even remotely balanced, and that even worsens the lore issues with them being Elite units!
At best, you might get Faceless Assassins getting some mind control abilities on upgrade, but anything dealing with no retaliation should be beaten into mulch, set on fire, and thrown into the nearest abyss.
Strike and return usually is paired with no-retaliation. In H6, nearly all strike and return units had this, bar one. (Glories, Light elemental, Dark Elemental, Upgraded Harpies) in H5, the unit with strike and return, much like the Harpies, were upgraded to obtain no-retaliation.
As funny as you write about strike and return units being overpowered, think a bit about Shooters. Their attacks allow them to A) strike, B) stay in initial position, and C) not get hurt by the enemy from retaliation. Essentially, no-retal strike and returns are basically alternates to shooters. Which are usually wet tissue paper, unless they are more like Titans.
Even still, because of the strike and return making a unit as a pseudo-shooter, Dungeon would have three shooter-like units. This bears a striking similarity to pretty much all Wizard Factions ever, and H6 Necro. Yes, these are powerful, but, I think that's the point, they want Dungeon to be powerful. What makes them not totally over powered? The fact that they are easily ripped to shreds in close combat, bar their champions/top tier, the usual Titan and the Spinner, which had ways of fighting in close combat. That was their purpose, to act as both. Notice, though, that Dungeon does not have a top-tier shooter. Which means these pseudo shooters most likely aren't the best at defending.
Even still, you say that "strike and return, no retaliation, and mind control" is horrendously over powered. I'd tell you to take a look at H6, where the Faceless Puppeteers were... strike and return, no retaliation, mind controllers. And they weren't overpowered. They were pretty good, but, yes, they were tissue paper against might-units and light attacks.
Personally, I still dislike Blade, mostly because I think "strike and return" was once a pretty unique skill that made only a few pseudo-shooters, but with H6, it was getting over-done. With Blade, yes, there will be 2 strike and returns, which makes the ability to me less interesting.
But you know what this is really similar to, tactically? H3 Dungeon, with 2 shooters and the only pseudo-shooter in the form of Harpy. So, yeah.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted November 09, 2014 09:30 PM |
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I would say that with the flanking system strike-and-return, no retaliation, units are more powerfull than shooters. They can abuse the flanking system and have unlimited ammo. Furthermore they have high movement speed, so they can easily reposition to use obstacles in their advantage.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted November 09, 2014 09:46 PM |
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Steyn said:
I would say that with the flanking system strike-and-return, no retaliation, units are more powerfull than shooters. They can abuse the flanking system and have unlimited ammo. Furthermore they have high movement speed, so they can easily reposition to use obstacles in their advantage.
Indeed. I rewatched the Twitch stream from a while back and they explicitly said that they considered adding "no retaliation" to all rear flanking attacks, but they didn't because they knew it would be overpowered. I imagine that's why the Faceless Assassins probably won't have that ability - it would grant that overpowered nature to them and them alone. At least with Skirmishers, the fact that they are running on foot would limit the ability to exploit that advantage, as having the ability to run all the way around a target would likely eat up most of the movement points, meaning you'd have to be dangerously close to the assailant. This is exactly the reason why I was so opposed to the notion in my earlier post.
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jeremiahemo
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted November 10, 2014 02:21 AM |
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I wish they change Arcane Birds to Garuda or something.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 10, 2014 06:56 AM |
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I am quite chuffed.
Thousand Faces won and is winning round two as well (so far).
The Tree Island town is also winning in Town vote.
Nice.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 10, 2014 12:15 PM |
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Kimmundi online. New vote's on it's way  Hope I'll be around to create the new poll thread. If I show no reaction someone else can take over.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted November 10, 2014 12:31 PM |
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got a quick question for kimmundi (or Marzhin): is there a possibility for Medusa to get a petrification ability as it's a signature thing?
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Kimmundi
Hired Hero
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posted November 10, 2014 03:10 PM |
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Stevie said:
Kimmundi online. New vote's on it's way Hope I'll be around to create the new poll thread. If I show no reaction someone else can take over.
Hey hey, i'm being stalked. Indeed I'm preparing the second part of the Sylvan Townscreen vote as we speak, I'm thinking to post in 1 hour and a half or perhaps a bit later.
kiryu133 said:
got a quick question for kimmundi (or Marzhin): is there a possibility for Medusa to get a petrification ability as it's a signature thing?
I'll let Marzhin answer this one if he can, it's out of my skillset  (but he is not in the office today, tomorrow is a bank holiday in Paris, he may have taken a day off.)
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
