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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted January 29, 2015 04:16 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Have him return in 40 years.
What happens to the Lich if it perishes during combat? Is it then dead dead or it can return somehow?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 29, 2015 04:18 PM |
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dark-whisperer said:
What happens to the Lich if it perishes during combat? Is it then dead dead or it can return somehow?
Got one word for ya: Necromancy.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted January 29, 2015 04:21 PM |
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Ah, so Necromancer can return it to life so it can get revenge when swordmaster gets old. Got it 
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 04:33 PM |
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War-overlord said:
LizardWarrior said:
Still would get his @$$ kicked from an unupgraded swordmaster 
Have him return in 40 years.
Edit: @Genya, I never said Liches suck cause they ain't got no skull. I couldn't give a monkey's arse one way or another.
Good but i wasnt talking to you. I dont know if you were the last one to make that comment because i didnt bother checking who made it, since it happens to often
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 29, 2015 04:40 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
Good but i wasnt talking to you. I dont know if you were the last one to make that comment because i didnt bother checking who made it, since it happens to often
Oh, I assumed you were refering to the debate Stevie and I were having about a Lore-compliant way of having Skeletal Liches.
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted January 29, 2015 05:08 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
@Marzhin Oooh, I want more of these portraits
Lucretia looks like she's already a Vampire =P Already pale and already with green eyes.
Some people are predestined
Her very first portrait looked much younger and was eventually used as the basis for Zakera in Shades of Darkness.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 29, 2015 05:44 PM |
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Yo will there be any celebrity cameos in this one?
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted January 29, 2015 05:46 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Yo will there be any celebrity cameos in this one?
Not if we can avoid it. You'd be amazed how often you have to remind artists they are not supposed to copy-paste photos from Google Images ^^'
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 05:47 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 17:49, 29 Jan 2015.
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Just gonna return one moment to what you said about the idea of Skeletal Lichdom through Manticore poison being easy to counter.
War-overlord said:
Mind, that this can also be countered very easily. The simple statement that: "Yeah, a lot of people tried that and it goes wrong nearly every time. This convinced almost everyone that this is just a realy, realy stupid idea. Though every once in a while some lazy moron tries it again and dies horribly. In the end, Moander proved to be just very, very, very, very lucky." does away with the whole idea.
A very unlikely scenario first of all, and second of all it accomplishes nothing, it just creates more restrictions for no reason. Moander managed to live with a plan cooked up on the spot, drinking a vial of Namtaru venom from the Black Market, and actual Necromancers in a controlled environment, with access to the substance and to the story straight from the horse's mouth can't at the very least replicate the incident? Not convincing at all.
If there is one reason for which they won't introduce Skeletal Liches back it's because they're stubborn or even crazy. There is 0 reason not to. Even in this restrictive and stupid lore some fans from a community forum managed to figure out a way of introducing them back, and they, who have the means to do much more, can't?! Sorry but not buying it.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted January 29, 2015 05:52 PM |
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Stevie said:
A very unlikely scenario first of all, and second of all it accomplishes nothing, it just creates more restrictions for no reason. Moander managed to live with a plan cooked up on the spot, drinking a vial of Namtaru venom from the Black Market, and actual Necromancers in a controlled environment, with access to the substance and to the story straight from the horse's mouth can't at the very least replicate the incident? Not convincing at all.
But what do they have to gain from it? Unless being a Skeletal Lich grants you some extra power or advantage, but in Moander's case it didn't. If anything it might have ruined his chance to become a Vampire later on, since there's no flesh to rejuvenate anymore.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 29, 2015 05:52 PM |
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Don't come crying when they prove to be stubborn.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 06:07 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:13, 29 Jan 2015.
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Marzhin said:
Stevie said:
A very unlikely scenario first of all, and second of all it accomplishes nothing, it just creates more restrictions for no reason. Moander managed to live with a plan cooked up on the spot, drinking a vial of Namtaru venom from the Black Market, and actual Necromancers in a controlled environment, with access to the substance and to the story straight from the horse's mouth can't at the very least replicate the incident? Not convincing at all.
But what do they have to gain from it? Unless being a Skeletal Lich grants you some extra power or advantage, but in Moander's case it didn't. If anything it might have ruined his chance to become a Vampire later on, since there's no flesh to rejuvenate anymore.
Well, without adding any lore, they could achieve Archlichdom (the Heroes 6 equivalent) because that's the state you get to through drinking Namtaru venom and living beyond your preordained life. If you trigger that moment right then and there by drinking Manticore poison, not only you end up Skeletal (which is the entire point) but you could also explain that they skip the Lich state directly to Archlich.
Then with Moander let's not forget that he was a Human General in the Empire. He did not practice Necromancy, what he did was "might" oriented, and even after that incident and joining the Necromants he just resumed his duties as a General as mentioned in his bio.
And that's done without adding anything. Of course, the ones that write the stuff can invent something to explain it better. Or is there any reason for which they can't?
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 06:07 PM |
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@Marzhin:
Being skeletal may not give you any powers, but it just isn't fashionable amongst the dead. Any potnetial ladys would not go out with a lich, who still has skin on. I mean ewww, he almost looks like he's alive. Certainly unapealing feature amongst undead circles it seems 
When you step into Lich-dom (yes), you are expected to show some bones.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted January 29, 2015 06:27 PM |
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But if being a vampire is the next tier for a lich, why isn't vampire the upgrade of lich and we free a spot for a more interesting creature?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 06:35 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:37, 29 Jan 2015.
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LizardWarrior said:
But if being a vampire is the next tier for a lich, why isn't vampire the upgrade of lich and we free a spot for a more interesting creature?
Vampire is not the upgrade of a Lich. Vampire state is achieved through a ritual and even Heroes 6 mentions that. Ofc, there is a relation between the two states (which is utterly stupid), but the necessity doesn't follow. How much of a Lich was Ornella? She received the Kiss of the Spider Goddess ritual without being a lich.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 29, 2015 06:40 PM |
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as much as I don't think skeletal liches should be justified by having everyone get high on manticore milk, it's hard to ask us to design the perfect lore justification when we don't know what your limitations are and how your campaign story will go, lol
Sandro's bio says he achieved great revelations at the cost of his flesh, so having these liches be his nethermancer groupies is one possibility, (just as you're also saying the slave minotaurs of Heroes 5 represented only the Soulscar faction even though the whole Dungeon uses them because gameplay),
another way to do it is to say the namtaru venom is currently running out and not everyone gets to partake as Stevie suggested, really most of his improvised ideas so far are very solid
let's be honest, there have been more than a few ass pulls with those whole idea before just to do something cool, like the entire stories of Nicolai and Ornella, so let's not pretend we're violating something sacred here lol
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted January 29, 2015 06:46 PM |
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Edited by Marzhin at 18:48, 29 Jan 2015.
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@Stevie: you missed my point. Of course, we could find one thousand reasons why liches could become skeletons, just as we could find one thousand reasons for dragons to fart jolly leprechauns
But that's assuming that becoming skeletal is something Liches are actively seeking. Why would they want to look like skeletons -- beings they use as lowly slaves? Apart from "because some fans find it cool" or "for sexiness", I mean? These are both great reasons (OK, the first one at least ) but should not be the only reasons
There's also the question of numbers. In an army, you're going to have dozens, if not hundreds of Liches. So whatever the reason for them to undergo this transformation into a skeleton process, it is something the majority of them do.
These are real questions, by the way, not me trying to show you are wrong or something. As I said, anything's possible. But without answering these questions, it's not going to work.
So there are two possible reasons: either there is some sort of gain related to becoming skeletal. If we go that route, which is possible, we are adding something to the lore. It shouldn't be done carelessly.
OR it is something that happened to a large number of them without them wanting it. For instance, lots of liches started decaying faster than expected when Sandro placed his Void curse on the Mother Namtaru for instance.
What I'm trying to say is -- the lore is adaptable, and can be changed when necessary. It has happened before, and is likely to happen again. But it needs to be done with the long-term, in-universe consequences in mind.
Contrary to what some fans seem to think, the people in charge of the Might & Magic Lore are not that stubborn (at least not more stubborn than, say, the average Heroes fan ), but they need to maintain some balance and consistency, because this world is shared with other games than just Heroes. If all we had to worry about was pleasing Heroes fans exclusively, our job would be easier
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 29, 2015 06:47 PM |
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Marzhin said:
Not if we can avoid it. You'd be amazed how often you have to remind artists they are not supposed to copy-paste photos from Google Images ^^'
That's a relief I guess, if not a little boring.
Verriker said:
Sandro's bio says he achieved great revelations at the cost of his flesh, so having these liches be his nethermancer groupies is one possibility, (just as you're also saying the slave minotaurs of Heroes 5
That was canon then? Hold on, I need to write this down...
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted January 29, 2015 06:49 PM |
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verriker said:
the slave minotaurs of Heroes 5 represented only the Soulscar faction even though the whole Dungeon uses them because gameplay
Well, it also helps that the Soulscars were ruling the whole of Ygg-Chall at the time of H5.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 29, 2015 06:54 PM |
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Marzhin said:
OR it is something that happened to a large number of them without them wanting it. For instance, lots of liches started decaying faster than expected when Sandro placed his Void curse on the Mother Namtaru for instance.
H5 Liches explained by one line of text. 
Though woudn't Liches naturally degrade over time?
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
