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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted July 09, 2015 01:23 PM |
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articun said:
you can't have a garden without water 
Please, visit Ashan's dwarven cities and see their "lava" gardens first.
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted July 09, 2015 01:27 PM |
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Galaad said:
articun said:
It should be Air to Haven and not Water since in Ashan[...]
Siiiiiigh
Galaad, no matter what we say, what we want, what we wish etc etc, we are bound for now in a specific world with specific rules and a specific lore (with some points fixed and some others ongoing) either we like it or not.
And in some cases such as this, we should abide by those rules. We can bypass it sure, but it is not something so major to pose a threat of any kind to the mechanics (i hope).
I may be of wrong thinking, i know, and most will say that is true, but still, i will try not to be a fanatic loyalist of specific previous Heroes games. 
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articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted July 09, 2015 01:31 PM |
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Avonu said:
articun said:
you can't have a garden without water
Please, visit Ashan's dwarven cities and see their "lava" gardens first.
My dear Avonu, a lava garden is vastly different from a forest garden (i hope).
Unless of course you want to carefully tend to the lava with water and end up with an obsidian garden that is
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted July 09, 2015 01:33 PM |
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Edited by Avonu at 13:41, 09 Jul 2015.
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Articun, as Cate, a human and a Dragon Knight of Malassa (Darkness) said in Heroes 6: everyone in Ashan has "inner" dragon in their heart (or something like that).
He or she can change his/her alligance if (s)he feel that this dragon is stronger then dragon in his/her veins.
Ergo - you are born as a servant of one dragon but you can change that, if you really feel it's better for you.
Not to mention Demon Cultists which all were servants of Asha but became serants of Urgash.
So even from Ashan lore point of view factions are not 100% fixed to magic schools. All you need is a bit of imagination. Sea elves for example worship both Sylanna (Earth) and Shalassa (Water), Sayama Nagas (water faction) live on desert and so on...
articun said:
My dear Avonu, a lava garden is vastly different from a forest garden (i hope).
Unless of course you want to carefully tend to the lava with water and end up with an obsidian garden that is
You wrote about a garden. You didn't mention if it is elven garden.
And Dwarves' "lava" gardens are created from molten rocks and obsidian, not lava itself.
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted July 09, 2015 01:51 PM |
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articun said:
you can't have a garden without water
You also can't have a garden without air, because plants breathe too 
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 09, 2015 01:51 PM |
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articun said:
Galaad, no matter what we say, what we want, what we wish etc etc, we are bound for now in a specific world with specific rules and a specific lore (with some points fixed and some others ongoing) either we like it or not.
And in some cases such as this, we should abide by those rules. We can bypass it sure, but it is not something so major to pose a threat of any kind to the mechanics (i hope).
I can understand some rules, but the amount Ashan enforces is ridiculous. Ashan feels too restrictive, too static and boring. Not to mention bending gameplay to the rules can be detrimental (Magic system suffers from that in recent Heroes, IMO).
With regards of the Magic Schools, there has been some good discussion here.
articun said:
I may be of wrong thinking, i know, and most will say that is true, but still, i will try not to be a fanatic loyalist of specific previous Heroes games.
This has nothing to do with being a member of the ECP or not
articun said:
Why are they in bold??? I did not select bold format!!! :'(
Galaad's post doesn't have a close bold tag.
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articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted July 09, 2015 01:57 PM |
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Wait a second... Obsidian is formed when lava is cooled very quick... why would you melt obsidian to make lava?
But, the majority of the individuals in each race has the corresponding dragon to their veins. Dwarves are mostly disciples of Arkath, Elves of Sylanna and so on.
That some individuals can be of something different or their soul attracted to something else, is not, i believe, the norm but the exception to the rule (again, probably).
Even so, and casting imagination aside (which i have a lot of ) we are talking about the archetypes of each faction and how well it could attune to the specific magic schools. My reasoning is that since Humans were created by Ylath they are (supposedly) more prone to be better attuned to Air, the school of their creator. But we see them becoming attuned to light magic as well that is the innate magic school of Angels.
The same is true for Dark magic school that is innate in the Faceless but the Dark elves became also attuned to it.
I don't mean that each race cannot or should not praise any form of magic, but in a level of Faction, there are some magic schools that are more attuned or less attuned to the Faction as a whole.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 09, 2015 01:58 PM |
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articun said:
It should be Air to Haven and not Water since in Ashan Humans are the creations of Ylath Dragon of Air, so their innate tendency is towards that element. And i do believe that Water should be one of the Schools for Sylvan... you can't have a garden without water
Well I think (traditional) Water fits Haven better: Bless, Cure, Prayer, etc. Of course if one wants to fit Ashan style better, I guess you could substitute Air and Water pretty much throughout to get the combinations they have.
I guess you could even say there's a certain logic in grouping Water + Fire as one group and Earth + Air as the other group, but I'd still prefer a grouping by theme like I suggested above.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted July 09, 2015 01:59 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 14:00, 09 Jul 2015.
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articun said:
Galaad said:
articun said:
It should be Air to Haven and not Water since in Ashan[...]
Siiiiiigh
Galaad, no matter what we say, what we want, what we wish etc etc, we are bound for now in a specific world with specific rules and a specific lore (with some points fixed and some others ongoing) either we like it or not.
And in some cases such as this, we should abide by those rules. We can bypass it sure, but it is not something so major to pose a threat of any kind to the mechanics (i hope).
I may be of wrong thinking, i know, and most will say that is true, but still, i will try not to be a fanatic loyalist of specific previous Heroes games.
Why are they in bold??? I did not select bold format!!! :'(
you are not of wrong thinking, galaad is being himself again...
if only galad knew how many sighs his posts create...
and avonu said "we just need imagination".
yeah ok one hero in necropolis could be attuned to arkath for some reason, like a skeleton could have one leg amongst hundreds of them. yet we see two legged skeletons, not a separate unit with 1 leg, because one skeleton had an accident while skiing.
same can be said about heroes. it' about the general theme of the faction they are in. I used my imagination and I acknowledge that there is a necromancer somewhere excelling in fire magic. good for him/her.
If anyone thinks it's gamebreaking not having a grandmaster fire magic with necros (just an example I must remind) then he is overreacting. Especially if a necro hero can have fire magic in his/her wheel at a lesser rank.
indeed some classes need a little more variety. but I think a sylvan magic hero will still be able to excel at master level in water magic. no need to grandmaster it. people act like only the grandmasters count and that the skillwheel will have only the 3 said abilities... relax people heroes 7 sucks, all hail heroes 3, ashan is the devil, nothing makes sense there, too overdone, too simple yada yada..
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 09, 2015 02:05 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
indeed some classes need a little more variety. but I think a sylvan magic hero will still be able to excel at master level in water magic. no need to grandmaster it. people act like only the grandmasters count and that the skillwheel will have only the 3 said abilities... relax people heroes 7 sucks, all hail heroes 3, ashan is the devil, nothing makes sense there, too overdone, too simple yada yada..
Actually I quite strongly disagree with this. Their new (rubbish) skill system binds us hand and feet on what skills we can learn and what level we can learn them on. In an attempt to make up for that (one would assume) they give us three classes of each kind to choose from in each faction, which is a good way to at least partially make up for the mess their skill system is. But to then give them all three the same magic school as grandmaster school is not only bad design, it's downright stupid, because it goes directly against the whole purpose of having multiple hero classes of each kind. And this is not just a minor point with regards to gameplay, what they do is they bind us completely so that we can never have grandmaster magic in any other magic school when playing this faction, which no matter how you twist and turn it is severely limiting on replayability.
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articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted July 09, 2015 02:06 PM |
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@Storm Giant
Restrictive or not, can you deny it is where we are now?
It's like being in Enroth and yet request the dynamics of Axeoth or vice-versa. Each world the franchise reincarnates in has some for of restrictions, archetypes and the likes. The amount of restriction is based upon the vision of the developers, the lore specified etc.
Also, thanx for the bold thing 
And ECP???
@LizardWarrior
Oh come on you know what i mean. Though under logic, i must agree with you, under Ashan and the customization purposes of the game, i am bound to provide thusly.
@alcibiades
No denying what you say, neither do i want to group magic schools and the like. I am merely proposing something that to me feels more appropriate.
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted July 09, 2015 02:11 PM |
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Edited by Avonu at 14:15, 09 Jul 2015.
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articun said:
Wait a second... Obsidian is formed when lava is cooled very quick... why would you melt obsidian to make lava?
"Lava" gardens, not lava gardens. Dwarves seem to don't know a difference between lava and stone - so their stone gardens (cretaed from molten rocks and obsidian) are caled lava gardens.
articun said:
That some individuals can be of something different or their soul attracted to something else, is not, i believe, the norm but the exception to the rule (again, probably).
Even so, and casting imagination aside (which i have a lot of ) we are talking about the archetypes of each faction and how well it could attune to the specific magic schools.
Yes, we are talking about archetypes. So why one class can't be a Fallen Knight with Dark Magic or why Dwarves, living on the North, can't have some kind of Ice Mage for example?
True, Demons and Faceless are hurt by Light Magic but even they have allies like Dark Elves or Cultists, who can use this kind of spells... from whatever reasons they may choose (fight fire with fire? Defeat enemies within?).
Humans in Holy Empire are most Light users but these living in Bull Duchy can be influenced by necromancers, these in Stag Duchy by Irollan, these in Wolf Duchy by Nagas, etc.
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 09, 2015 02:11 PM |
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articun said:
@Storm Giant
Restrictive or not, can you deny it is where we are now?
It's like being in Enroth and yet request the dynamics of Axeoth or vice-versa. Each world the franchise reincarnates in has some for of restrictions, archetypes and the likes. The amount of restriction is based upon the vision of the developers, the lore specified etc.
That doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
And I refuse to accept a system that hurts the gameplay so much, even more when it could easily be adapted to the game without altering lore (keep the 6-7 Magic elements, but group the spells into 4 Schools).
articun said:
And ECP???
Enroth Conservative Party, of course! 
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articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted July 09, 2015 02:18 PM |
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Edited by articun at 14:21, 09 Jul 2015.
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Storm-Giant said:
articun said:
@Storm Giant
Restrictive or not, can you deny it is where we are now?
It's like being in Enroth and yet request the dynamics of Axeoth or vice-versa. Each world the franchise reincarnates in has some for of restrictions, archetypes and the likes. The amount of restriction is based upon the vision of the developers, the lore specified etc.
That doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
And I refuse to accept a system that hurts the gameplay so much, even more when it could easily be adapted to the game without altering lore (keep the 6-7 Magic elements, but group the spells into 4 Schools).
articun said:
And ECP???
Enroth Conservative Party, of course!
Neither will i force anyone to accept anything. We are merely discussing, proposing and arguing, but never ordering or trying to manipulate.
For one, i find it strange that Dwarves are a fire faction. But hey, why not. Elves is earth... ok... earth = nature and so on.
I am trying to find logical connections to what we have.
@Anovu, you are right to what you are saying, but still, in a town or a land of a duchy, how many can be persuaded to follow a specific magic school? You are again talking about minorities in my opinion.
As for the demons, i do not accept the fact that they are primarily a fire faction. I consider them somewhat of a perversion to all the elements, so something in accordance to academy but with the use of the destructive aspects of the magic schools. Again this is not to say that a cultist can not use his/her previous tactics and magic.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted July 09, 2015 02:26 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 14:37, 09 Jul 2015.
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alcibiades said:
ChrisD1 said:
Actually I quite strongly disagree with this. Their new (rubbish) skill system binds us hand and feet on what skills we can learn and what level we can learn them on. In an attempt to make up for that (one would assume) they give us three classes of each kind to choose from in each faction, which is a good way to at least partially make up for the mess their skill system is. But to then give them all three the same magic school as grandmaster school is not only bad design, it's downright stupid, because it goes directly against the whole purpose of having multiple hero classes of each kind. And this is not just a minor point with regards to gameplay, what they do is they bind us completely so that we can never have grandmaster magic in any other magic school when playing this faction, which no matter how you twist and turn it is severely limiting on replayability.
how the absence of a single ability(grandmaster) is severy limiting on replaybility??????? again please do not overreact. that's all I'm saying. I'm not saying the new system rocks, I'm not praising ubisoft, I'm not saying the most absurd thing in the world. Just don't overreact. I would like more choices too, but if I can still have a different skillwheel with access to a school I can't excel, big whoop. It doesn't make the system stupid (for that reason at least)and my gameplay experience is not severely limited.
Especially with 6 classes per faction that I hope will have different skillwheels nomatter their grandmasters. If all 6 skillwheels have the exact same abilties (grandmasters aside) then yes it's limiting and stupid. IF not, don't overreact. It creates an over-reaction
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted July 09, 2015 02:40 PM |
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articun said:
It's like being in Enroth and yet request the dynamics of Axeoth or vice-versa. Each world the franchise reincarnates in has some for of restrictions, archetypes and the likes. The amount of restriction is based upon the vision of the developers, the lore specified etc.
well the dynamics of Enroth and Axeoth wouldn't conflict, they are not racist dynamics that insist humans or elves or dwarves are bound to be all the same and use any specific element, even when there is lore involved you can have genies learn fire magic and efreeti learn water lol
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 09, 2015 02:41 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
how the absence of a single ability(grandmaster) is severy limiting on replaybility?
Ok I'll admit, severely limiting might be pushing it a bit when it just comes to the GM ability. None-the-less, I still retain my statement that it's downright stupid to make three different classes to choose between, and then give them all the same skill as one of their two GM abilities. Of course I hope they'll manage to balance things enough to make us go for other builds than just GM-builds (even if I'm skeptic whether they'll succeed in this), but even if they do, I think having the option to play different factions with different GM-abilities should be desirable from a game-design pov.
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted July 09, 2015 03:27 PM |
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articun said:
As for the demons, i do not accept the fact that they are primarily a fire faction. I consider them somewhat of a perversion to all the elements, so something in accordance to academy but with the use of the destructive aspects of the magic schools. Again this is not to say that a cultist can not use his/her previous tactics and magic.
Actually demons use Chaos Magic, which is a part of Prime Magic (same in case of Void, which also is part of Prime). Demons are living in fiery realm of Sheogh, so Fire magic is their second favourite magic but Chaos/Prime is their... prime. 
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 09, 2015 03:49 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
how the absence of a single ability(grandmaster) is severy limiting on replaybility???????
On the other hand, having access to 9 skills total (aside from racial) and only 5 expert is a severe flaw in the system, which heavily limits gameplay.
ChrisD1 said:
again please do not overreact.
For the love of God, how can you accuse somebody of overreacting when you are the biggest drama queen out there. What a joke
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted July 09, 2015 04:36 PM |
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Was there a thread so long? I mean we just have 50 pages before the milestone.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
