|
| Thread: The AI, Should it be able to cheat? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV |
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted August 25, 2014 12:07 PM |
|
|
|
Stevie, with HoMM 5 play maps with more than 1 opponent, and in case you haven't done so, try the RPE Mod, which has its own thread here. Pretty amazing work, that also comes with Alci's resource cost changes - and recently also with Quantomas' improved AI.
|
|
Sal
Famous Hero
|
|
posted August 25, 2014 12:10 PM |
|
|
I think it depends mainly of the map played. In H3 AI is not a threat anymore after beating the main, but on custom maps there are more than one AI main, waiting for you.
Also H5 has a computer resources problem, you can't make complex maps as in H3, comp will crash. So here you are.
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 25, 2014 12:25 PM |
|
|
So the, from a technical standpoint, you can't create a map with the RMG at Impossible difficulty and have the AI be a challenge for you? Is that it?
@JJ, I'm playing RPE with Quantomas AI and it's still not good enough. The only way I get a challenge there is if I give the AI another extra town or two.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 25, 2014 12:37 PM |
|
|
|
You mean RMG, one opponent?
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 25, 2014 12:44 PM |
|
Edited by Stevie at 12:45, 25 Aug 2014.
|
|
Yea, let's say 1 opponent. A duel map. Is it unable to beat me at Impossible difficulty even given cheats and all that? The way I see it is that an AI should be able to beat me AT LEAST 50% on 1v1 duel maps.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 25, 2014 01:13 PM |
|
|
What would be the purpose?
I mean, the AI is no real opponent, in the sense that it would matter - if it would beat you, the it was ONLY due to cheating, not while it would be "better" than you.
I mean - think about it: is the AI REALLY more than a game mechanism that is there to make you find your best game?
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 25, 2014 01:19 PM |
|
|
You cannot find your best game if the AI isn't a challenge enough to beat you most of the time.
See Civ 5. The AI at Deity simply murders you. And that's how it should be. Because the 1 time I win out of 10 is when I truly feel that I've stepped up my game. Why can't we get that with Heroes?
|
|
Sal
Famous Hero
|
|
posted August 25, 2014 01:25 PM |
|
|
|
This means nothing. CiV at deity receives 100 more of everything than Heroes at 200%. So some Heroes custom maps equalize that, then you get your AI assassin. Now for random maps it wouldn't make much sense, as they are mostly for 1vs1 humans.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted August 25, 2014 01:28 PM |
|
|
|
Games like Civ and Age of Empires are different. They are, compared to Heroes at least, much more lineer. In Heroes, the many ways you can use the spells and the variety, the weaknesses, immunities, the skill tree for each hero, the adventure map and knowing your way around it etc etc results in too many variables for the AI to have a fair fight with you.
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted August 25, 2014 01:50 PM |
|
|
JollyJoker said:
What would be the purpose?
I mean, the AI is no real opponent, in the sense that it would matter - if it would beat you, the it was ONLY due to cheating, not while it would be "better" than you.
I mean - think about it: is the AI REALLY more than a game mechanism that is there to make you find your best game?
Precisely, if AI get's constant undeserved bonus game loses fun.
I remember playing an H5 Map with a computer ally, I was using that Sylvian hero that starts with Enlightment and I had both Mentoring and Diplomacy. I moved him into my ally's territory to upgrade their heroes too and in the mean time I got some hundreds of mummies and death knights. As I had no need for them I passed them to one of his lesser heroes (now a powerfull hero with a quarter of my ubber main experience). After a few days he had growned thousands of each without any joinners and no dwellings.
After seeing this I almost never felt compelled to play H5 again.
If computer is improving just because then my strategies are useless. It is of no importance to take all his external dwellings so that he doesn't get extra growth, he get's it from no where. It doesn't matter if I killed all his peasants and flaged all his gold mines, he still has all the money he needs.
In this case the only thing that matter is if I'm able to trick him in battle but then it is funnier to just play duel mode.
Now, this could be manipulated other way. For instance external dwellings growth for AI is related to the level of difficulty or resource giving strutures provide extra income. In this case your gameplay quality still affects the development of the match while computer recives some vitamin suplements.
Note: This isn't a critic to Conquistador, Conquistador is part of WoG. BAI is ok when compared to the way Emerald Towers deal with AI, or the fact Death Chambers and Adventure Caves simply ignore it.
|
|
NACHOOOO
Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
|
|
posted August 31, 2014 01:47 PM |
|
Edited by NACHOOOO at 13:25, 01 Sep 2014.
|
It's cool to see that I've inspired a new thread! 
In MMH6 the enemy heroes would move into position just out of reach of your heroes movement (unless you had the grab ability, that was always funny). I swear they had extra movement too. Anyways, this is the kind of thing that really annoyed me because I'm unable to judge the same thing back accurately. Then you've got the whole subject of extra resources, upgrade discounts, yada yada yada.
I can let a little AI cheating slide, but when I solo hotseat, I don't want to feel cheated. Rather I'd like to play against an AI that is competitive and I enjoy pummeling into the ground. I think more options than easy, moderate and hard could also help
Edit: Feeling the bug, thought I'd give the H6 necro campaign some play time on hard difficulty. The last battle I had before quitting was fighting 3 stacks of melee creatures, sanctuary neutrals, who were behind a town wall. The AI decided the best option for them was to wait and then defend. I just used my ranged units and hero ability until all were dead, the whole time the enemy melee creatures stayed behind the town walls waiting and then defending.  What a joke
|
|
PyroStock
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted September 03, 2014 08:43 PM |
|
|
I won't go into whether something is a cheat or an advantage, but when it comes to AI cheats/advantages I think people forget about the human cheats/advantages they get. 1 example, only humans can cast certain spells - that's ok? That is exactly what you get in Heroes3 & Heroes5 (and likely other HoMM games) as the AI is completely unable to cast certain spells even if the AI has the requirements and those are the only spells in it's spellbook. Yet I've never read anyone disabling those spells when they play against the AI or even seen a thread on any forums asking the developers to let the AI use all spells. Worse, imagine getting a spell taking up a valuable slot in your mage guild that none of your heroes could ever cast, but if the enemy takes your town they could use it against you. Even Quantomas' improved AI & WoG don't change this fact. That's one example.
So sure the AI gets cheats/advantages... but so do you.
____________
|
|
NACHOOOO
Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
|
|
posted September 05, 2014 04:44 PM |
|
|
PyroStock said:
I won't go into whether something is a cheat or an advantage, but when it comes to AI cheats/advantages I think people forget about the human cheats/advantages they get. 1 example, only humans can cast certain spells - that's ok? That is exactly what you get in Heroes3 & Heroes5 (and likely other HoMM games) as the AI is completely unable to cast certain spells even if the AI has the requirements and those are the only spells in it's spellbook. Yet I've never read anyone disabling those spells when they play against the AI or even seen a thread on any forums asking the developers to let the AI use all spells. Worse, imagine getting a spell taking up a valuable slot in your mage guild that none of your heroes could ever cast, but if the enemy takes your town they could use it against you. Even Quantomas' improved AI & WoG don't change this fact. That's one example.
So sure the AI gets cheats/advantages... but so do you.
Do you have any spell specific examples out of interest?
My preference is that the AI can do everything I can do and that I'm not given advantages over the computer unless I'm playing at a lower difficulty setting.
Game breaking AI advantages to me are things such as extra movement points, double recruiting opportunities during the week and being able to take advantage of knowledge you don't have access to. I.e. Placing a hero just perfectly out of reach of my hero.
I can handle extra starting resources, lower recruiting costs etc, however I want the illusion that the AI I'm playing against is a worthy competitor on an equal playing field, is one that poses a challenge and that I enjoy beating. Playing a game that takes hours to play, only to steamroll over your opponent just feels like a waste of time. You look at games such as Civilisation and there are 8 different difficulty levels from memory. There is nothing like going, ok I beat 4 opponents on medium difficulty, let's see if I can beat 2 on medium and 2 on hard. Then when you beat them increasing the challenge a little more. I don't want to win unfairly, I like winning because I made better, wiser decisions than my opponent. If I knew the computer couldn't use certain spells my victory would have felt far less satisfying and my desire to play the game again would be greatly diminished.
Winning all the time is boring, losing all the time sucks. An AI is perfectly balanced when you can take advantage of certain situations such as two neighboring factions at war and you come in and take one of their cities while they are weak. You may not get that advantage the next time and then all of a sudden life is a lot harder. That's the kind of thing that would make me want to come back time and time again.
____________
Magic Bird, only a working
title. Phew
|
|
PyroStock
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted September 06, 2014 09:46 AM |
|
|
NACHOOOO said:
Do you have any spell specific examples out of interest?
Except for scripting or altering the AI, AI heroes will not cast the spells below. Give the AI heroes only these spells and all requirements (even master of all spell schools) & the AI still will not cast these:
Heroes 3
========
Beserk (and this is a very powerful spell even without Expert Fire)
Quicksand (good spell)
Force Field (good spell)
Land Mine
Fire Wall
?Disrupting Ray? (I don't remember)
?Counterstrike? (I don't remember)
Forgetfulness (great spell; the AI either never casts it or puts it on very very low priority - I don't remember)
Heroes 5
========
Fire Trap
Arcane Crystal
Blade Barrier
Summon Hive
?Summon Elementals? (I don't remember)
?Summon Avatar of Death? (I've had many battles where the AI with this spell refused to summon this, but maybe it was worried of it dying & losing all it's mana?)
Those are the ones off the top of my head. There might be more. Granted some of those spells may be hard to program, but it doesn't change the fact that only humans can use them.
I found an old H3 script to get the AI to cast Beserk, but the writer overlooked some things & left it incomplete. I modified it so it's better, but the AI still doesn't do a good job using Beserk. It needs someone who can script better than me.
____________
|
| |
|
|
