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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted April 06, 2015 03:18 PM |
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Galaad said: You still didn't read my four parts did you?
Aw, now my post is forever stuck on the previous page . Anyway, no, I didn't read it. What I wrote now is mostly unbiased in that way that I take no other opinions into account, LizardWarrior's excluded). This is a brief outline of what I think, and it's up to anyone else what they think about that.
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 06, 2015 03:19 PM |
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Galaad said: You still didn't read my four parts did you?
Most of these have been challenged as soon as they were posted yet you did not constructively answer any single post from the opposition. Just because you make a long post, it doesn't make it some kind of ultimate evidence you can post every time someone doesn't agree with you.
Frankly, I explained Ashan's necromancers countless times and I did say I can do it again, yet there's no interest on your part.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 06, 2015 03:21 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 15:24, 06 Apr 2015.
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Dies_Irae said: Anyway, no, I didn't read it.
And how do you expect a discussion to be fruitful if you don't read already provided argumentation? Because here, you are just asking me to repeat myself.
Have you even read the OP?
Sligneris said: Frankly, I explained Ashan's necromancers countless times and I did say I can do it again, yet there's no interest on your part.
Would you be so kind to link me the part where you defend Ashan necros? I must have missed it.
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted April 06, 2015 03:32 PM |
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My post doesn't necessarily have to react to yours or to anyone's for that matter .
LizardWarrior stated in his first post:
LizardWarrior said: Do you think Ashan should go to the trash can?
so what's your opinion?
My answer is no, and my opinion follows that statement. I take into account his views regarding the Demons as plot-device, and to an extent the Dragon Gods as well. Since he asks for my opinion I give it, I share my view on the matter the same way as you have done. Now I can try to argue with you, but I can also light the fire myself by providing my own views which are then open for debate.
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 06, 2015 03:32 PM |
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 06, 2015 03:36 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 15:43, 06 Apr 2015.
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Dies Irae said: My post doesn't necessarily have to react to yours or to anyone's for that matter.
Oh, so you barge in an already +30 pages long thread, and post your ideas without having read through it. Good to know.
Sligneris said: I commented that it makes more sense for necromancers as 'people' to have some kind of ideology behind the atrocities they commit. Ultimately I dislike their lackluster portrayal in some games, but that's problem with the execution, not with the concept.
Your discussion with Verriker. I agree with Verriker, didn't think I needed to mention it tbh.
Sligneris editing after my reply said: revering the Spider Goddess is not a problem, failing to focus on their actions is.
Edit I misread you, could you expand on that?
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted April 06, 2015 03:42 PM |
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Galaad said:
Dies Irae said: My post doesn't necessarily have to react to yours or to anyone's for that matter.
Oh, so you barge in an already 25 pages long thread, and post your ideas without having read through it. Good to know.
Well, if I missed an update on the SC and there are already hundreds of comments, I ain't gonna read them all first. No, I post my stuff before taking time to read what others have written, and respond to that if I want to.
LW wants my opinion, he has it now, I have done everything that was asked of me in this thread. Discussions and debates etc is but a secondary thing, which appears automatically when opinions are brought together and clash.
Also, I think I'm on one side of the field and others, like you, on the other. There is a whole lot of ground to cover in a discussion and we might never even meet half-way simply because we are rooted in a very specific set of ideas.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 06, 2015 04:10 PM |
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Why are you even bothering answering to Galaad lol if you already know the thread goes both ways lol
Anyway let's do it Ubisoft
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 06, 2015 04:51 PM |
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Galaad said: Edit I misread you, could you expand on that?
I will sound a bit like Erwan here, but... will you be able to read through it?
Basics of necromancer's ideology is that they want to preserve their own consciousness - they seek eternal life, and eternal perfection. Spider is nothing but a symbol of that perfection and order - both of which are traits of their world's creator. Then, if you revere perfection, it's obvious you worship what you consider to be its embodiment.
Their timeless perfection however comes with a price - like Erwan said, they use venom of mythical creatures to essentially kill themselves, only to be reborn, but without basic human instincts or conscience. Because of that, and their own immortality, they consider life to be something fleeting, fragile and as such, insignificant - after all, when someone dies, their soul simply returns to Asha, only to return and be reincarnated. Little loss there, feel free to kill masses if it helps anyone.
Now, that's where the execution fails - there's nothing wrong or nonsensical with what we have established so far - I like that there is some kind of ideology there, rather than necromancers being evil just for the sake of it - instead, they simply lack empathy and are indifferent to suffering. But when we have a bunch of guys with literally zero regard of life, you need to show that. Their goals aren't evil, but their actions - binding people's souls in service to them, enslaving what was once human bodies - are.
They are fanatics, remorseless killers who won't think twice about slaughtering a city if it serves them, and then enslave the souls that lived in it. Their interpretation of Asha to other cultures is nothing but a blasphemy. But have we seen this? Was this clearly portrayed? Were atrocities they commit given any focus, were their ideas confronted? No.
That's why I don't like criticizing the lore itself - it's not at fault here. It's well-constructed, it actually gives a reason for necromancers to act like they do as a nation, something different than simply doing evil things for the sake of evil. What is terrible about it is that so far, developers literally failed to get this right.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 06, 2015 04:55 PM |
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Well... story is part of the lore. Isn't it obvious? Basically the story makes the lore, even if it may look otherwise, the lore serves the story
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 06, 2015 04:57 PM |
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Yet, story is made on the spot by development team, while lore was created back in the time of Heroes V. Are you just going to ignore that? Because it is your general assumption that "story makes the lore"?
I defended the concept of the Necropolis faction, because I heard complaints about the very concept. We might share notes about the concept's execution afterwards.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 06, 2015 05:01 PM |
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Like h5 campaign were any good The lore is reflected through the story (also excessively through the graphics now because ubisoft). You nail the story, you nail the lore.
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 06, 2015 05:04 PM |
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There are many other materials describing the lore, even games have much more content than these silly cutscenes. You're judging the very concept, while you think that game's story is all there is to it?
On a side note, I actually feel that Heroes V story was also pretty good, but again, terrible writing ruined it. I'd love to see it remade, but it'll probably never happen.
Galaad said: It would really help the discussion going further if you'd explain why you think this or that, a tad more objectively. Because right now, no offense, but it is potato, as the Panda says.
I... frankly don't know what else should be added. I described what Ashan's Necropolis is, I said why I like it and wouldn't want it gone completely, I mentioned that I dislike how some parts of it were underplayed in the game release. Could you give some examples on what else I should say?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 06, 2015 05:27 PM |
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Sligneris: It would really help the discussion going further if you'd explain why you think this or that, a tad more objectively. Because right now, no offense, but it is potato, as the Panda says.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 06, 2015 05:48 PM |
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Sligneris said: There are many other materials describing the lore, even games have much more content than these silly cutscenes. You're judging the very concept, while you think that game's story is all there is to it?
On a side note, I actually feel that Heroes V story was also pretty good, but again, terrible writing ruined it. I'd love to see it remade, but it'll probably never happen.
he has a good point though, because that is all there is to it, the part that makes it into the games is the part that counts and is ultimately judged
you can create an amazing piece of lore (which I really don't think they do lol), but unless it translates correctly to the game it's just a load of hot air on a website or in an overpriced compendium really, it doesn't affect or redeem what's in the finished product
we can't give the Ashan Necropolis a free pass just because the concept has "potential", especially after Erwin threw away a lot of great concepts with potential himself without much care lol
as for Heroes 5's story being good, I know this contravenes what Galaad advised above, but just no lol
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 06, 2015 05:55 PM |
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Ashan is snow until minotaurs replace dark elves in which case it'll be all right
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 06, 2015 07:11 PM |
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The story is good. Terrible told in H5 but good. In H6 the necromancers are pretty much called snowty desecrating corruptor by everyone unless it involves Svetlana or Anastasya. Even Kaspar is like "hell no" at the Plague Lamassus
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the minotaurs are the dark elves snowes. Deal with it
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 06, 2015 07:21 PM |
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GenyaArikado said: The story is good. Terrible told in H5 but good.
come on now, I'm supposed to have the monopoly on exploring whole new planes of sarcasm around here lol
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 06, 2015 08:20 PM |
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verriker said:
GenyaArikado said: The story is good. Terrible told in H5 but good.
come on now, I'm supposed to have the monopoly on exploring whole new planes of sarcasm around here lol
Inexperienced future queen Isabel amases an army using questionable means to help her future husband, King Nicolai, only to be betrayed, causing said future husband death. In the admist of a civil war, grief and pressure makes her ignore the better advice from the trusted knight Godric and follow the less than trustworthy Markal into a quest to revive Nicolai using necromantic artifacts, going through it despite said quest destroying the Griffin Empire relations with their allies, the Mages and the Elves. Godric eventually betrays them makes a last stand with the mages and the last artifact piece but they lose and he is imprisoned
On the other hand we have the demon Agrael whose deep cover mission to watch and retrieve Isabel, who unknownly to him was marked by the Demon Soverign to be the mother of his child; the Dark Messiah, has caused him to give in to his past mortal self ways and made him fall in love with his target. Hellbent (no pun intended) into overthrowing Kha-Beleth and guided by the mysterious Tieru, Agrael wages a necessary war through the Sylvan land to find Tieru and get himself cleansed from demonic taint. Returning to his former self, the dark elf Raelag, he goes on a quest to reunite the dark elven clains under one banner in order to stop Isabel's quest with the assassin Shadya as his ally. Regardless, Isabel ways are set and she heads for Nicolai's tomb.
Afterwards, Nicolai's resurrection as a souless vampire causes Isabel to break down and allows Markal to take over the Griffin empire, with masses of human refugees escaping towards the elven lands who accept them despite all the collateral damage caused to them by Isabel's war. Markal's retaliation to that act causes the elves get pushed to their own capital before they manage to regain the upper hand, at the cost of King Alaron's life. Afterwards the diplomat Findan goes to the Dragonmist Islands in order to seek council with Tiero, following Alaron's last words, only to find him murdered by Biara, the main agent of the Demon Soveraign and instigator of most of the big failures that the characters have come across so far. However Tieru spirit manages to tell him how to cleanse Isabel's taint before transcending. Needing to find the magician Zehir, Findan returns to Irollan to defeat the last bastion of the invasion, the vampire king Nicolai before going on with his quest.
Finally the archmage Zehir, whose father was killed during Markal and Isabel's quest, manages to retake the Silver Cities and in alliance with Findan and the now freed Godric to destroy Markal and cleanse Isabel. Joined later by Raelag and Shadya, they succeed into getting to Isabel, but as the ritual is prepared, Shadya reveals her true colors as Biara and abducts Isabel into Sheogh, the demon kingdom. After travelling there too, the apparently succesfully save Isabel from her future and foil the Sovereign plans. However at the last moment, the player sees how Isabel eyes flash an unnatural red.
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Looked from above like that, personally i think the story is good, a great story. However the way it's told in the game, the lame dialogues and Isabel overall coming off as an dimwitted annoying load causes the opposite, so in that sense i understand the people who say the story is bad. Looking from a post H6 perspective has also put perspective into some stuff that came off dumb (Vampires being able to be pretty decent, Tieru's spirit being able to conveniently in the world, Succubus abilities, Markal avenging Sandro's "death", etc)
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 06, 2015 08:43 PM |
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GenyaArikado said: (Vampires being able to be pretty decent, Tieru's spirit being able to conveniently in the world, Succubus abilities, Markal avenging Sandro's "death", etc)
Actually, vampires are known to become bloodthirsty monsters if they undergo Ritual of the Night against their will, many uneasy spirits are able to partially remain on the material plane if grounded by their emotions and Cyrus allied with CoH Emperor and killed Sandro prior to the events of Heroes 5.
About the only thing that is not explained is the exact extent of demons' ability to disguise themselves
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