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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 06, 2015 08:54 PM |
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Sligneris said:
GenyaArikado said:
(Vampires being able to be pretty decent, Tieru's spirit being able to conveniently in the world, Succubus abilities, Markal avenging Sandro's "death", etc)
Actually, vampires are known to become bloodthirsty monsters if they undergo Ritual of the Night against their will, many uneasy spirits are able to partially remain on the material plane if grounded by their emotions and Cyrus allied with CoH Emperor and killed Sandro prior to the events of Heroes 5.
About the only thing that is not explained is the exact extent of demons' ability to disguise themselves
Yes...and all that stuff was added in H6/Post H6 iirc.
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 06, 2015 09:20 PM |
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Ah, you mean that those things were explained. Okay, then I agree with you, these things had me puzzled as well. 
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Nuriel
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 07, 2015 12:15 PM |
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Edited by Nuriel at 12:15, 07 Apr 2015.
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LizardWarrior said:
Well... story is part of the lore. Isn't it obvious? Basically the story makes the lore, even if it may look otherwise, the lore serves the story
I think you're wrong here. It isn't right to equate "lore" and "story". Let me explain.
Story - it's just a plot. "Group of heroes try to rescue princess placed in dark castle by evil sorcerer. That's the story.
Lore - it's funny, but that part is variusly called in different fandoms. It's called a 'fluff' (like in Warhammer 40k and Iron Kingdoms community), 'verse', 'lore' but all of these terms are refering to the same one thing: setting.
If we take above example into account, we'll see that those simple story could be put into many different settings.
Change evil sorcerer to "Dark Lord of The Sith", dark castle to "Death Star", group of heroes to "Han Solo and Luke Skywalker" and we've had a Star Wars.
Change evil sorcerer to "Red Wizard of Thay" and we're in Forgotten Realms, change princess to "Asari Scientist" and we're in Mass Effect, change dark castle into "Kreegan fortress" and we're in old universe, change all thew above into respectively Kha Beleth, Queen Isabel and Sheogh and we have a fragment of plot from Heroes 5.
My point is, that subpar stories dooesn't have to indicate poor quality of the setting. The "setting", (ergo, the lore) is just the scene on which the action take place. Nothing more, nothing less.
Altough, the above argumnents and "Erwan Appreciation Thread" clearly indicates that you really haven't had good arguments for poor quality of Ashan 
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 07, 2015 01:13 PM |
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Nuriel said:
Altough, the above argumnents and "Erwan Appreciation Thread" clearly indicates that you really haven't had good arguments for poor quality of Ashan
They'll tell you otherwise, but most arguments I read were pure statements like:
"They manipulate",
"They divide the fanbase",
"Their creation is absurd and doesn't make sense",
Really, this sounds like H6's Haven campaign all over again. 
For me, none of these is a strong argument against Ashan. And no, the last one is not an argument, it's a thesis.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted April 07, 2015 01:46 PM |
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 07, 2015 02:30 PM |
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Nuriel said:
My point is, that subpar stories dooesn't have to indicate poor quality of the setting. The "setting", (ergo, the lore) is just the scene on which the action take place. Nothing more, nothing less.
Altough, the above argumnents and "Erwan Appreciation Thread" clearly indicates that you really haven't had good arguments for poor quality of Ashan
I totally disagree, because an atrocious storyline set in a particular world assimilates to become part of the lore of that world, and does influence its quality
whenever people describe the history of the Griffin Empire, they must forever recount that Isabel allowed the exiled criminal necromancer Markal to just walk right up to her face, that she almost immediately trusted him enough to invade the Silver Cities and murder Cyrus, that Markal successfully tricked her with the most lazy and obvious deception possible, and that Nicolai was then sent to invade Irollan of all places for no real reason
that trash is forever written into the setting now, and in fact is everybody's first impression of the setting, you can never wash out the stain, and it's so bad and nonsensical that I'd honestly prefer a blank slate lol
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 07, 2015 02:34 PM |
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Actually, wasn't war with the elves explained? They send forces to assist the Silver Cities and then allowed Griffin Empire's rebels on their lands?
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 07, 2015 02:46 PM |
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Sligneris said:
Actually, wasn't war with the elves explained? They send forces to assist the Silver Cities and then allowed Griffin Empire's rebels on their lands?
Lord Caldwell, the rebels and the young heir guy went off to hide in Irollan, but were on the retreat and didn't intend to fight back immediately, so we had King Markal already fighting three wars simultaneously and then starting a fourth losing one which ended up getting his general killed, the deepest lore lol
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 07, 2015 03:01 PM |
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verriker said:
so we had King Markal already fighting three wars simultaneously and then starting a fourth losing one which ended up getting his general killed, the deepest lore lol
doesn't sound to different from nazi germany...
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 07, 2015 03:08 PM |
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Biting more than they can chew in wars is kinda normal in evil rulers. At least this one was a necromancer and could get his troops risen.
verriker said:
whenever people describe the history of the Griffin Empire, they must forever recount that Isabel allowed the exiled criminal necromancer Markal to just walk right up to her face, that she almost immediately trusted him enough to invade the Silver Cities and murder Cyrus, that Markal successfully tricked her with the most lazy and obvious deception possible, and that Nicolai was then sent to invade Irollan of all places for no real reason
because stuff like that doesnt happen irl either, right Rasputin?
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted April 07, 2015 03:12 PM |
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IRL Rasputin was a necromancer. Hey, it makes sense right? 
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 07, 2015 03:24 PM |
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when did Fiona die again? like 20 years before Heroes 5? because he's had since then to formulate a master plan lol
which was, apparently, step 1: reanimate the king/emperor/whatever who conveniently died and murder the Wizard King in the process (which actually succeeded because Isabel was thick enough to listen), step 2: deal with Godric and the rebels, and become King (ditto), step 3: instead of consolidating his home front or crushing the remaining Wizards, chase after Caldwell and make bigger enemies out of the elves, step 4: get cornered by the pissed off elves, pissed off rebels and pissed off wizards, step 5: pray to god the Wizard King's son kills me with Magic Arrow and not Fireball
sigh, Asha uses all lol
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 07, 2015 03:54 PM |
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Quote:
Altough, the above argumnents and "Erwan Appreciation Thread" clearly indicates that you really haven't had good arguments for poor quality of Ashan
You seem to confuse the plot with the story itself. The plot is merely the skeleton of the story, it only draws the contour of a few character stereotypes, and these are mainly the primary ones, which the story revolves around. You cannot put an equal sign between the two. Let's start with the plot. It defines several events which are important to the story, yes, they are major and very relevant, but they aren't the story itself. Let's say that the plot is made from various "checkpoints", I shall demonstrate that with an example: One young man leaves his homeland in order to inherit his uncle's crown in a far away land. Pretty simple, right? Yes, it's the main plot, the subject of the story, but as you see it's not enough to define the story. The story relies heavily on details, these details may confirm that the story is actually and allegory and the subject of the allegory. The story relies on the tenor, which is the main subject of the story, this subject will be presented multiple times in different analogies as the story progresses. The plot doesn't always present the tenor of the story. In our little story we may say that the "young man's reign over his uncle's land" is the subject and that "inheritance" is the tenor of the story, but as I said it can be an allegory, for example: the journey to his uncle's land is an allegory for the maturation of the main character, as his traits develop along the way and the friendships he makes on the road are the actual tenor of the story (id est: friendship). Let's say that along the road he befriends a giant, or that a cunning man tries to trick him, or that he falls in love with a peasant girl in a village he stops in. Also he may face challenges along the way, like a bottomless chasm or that he has to fight a basilisk in a mountain pass. What I'm trying to say is that the plot is Character (Young man) goes from point 1 (his homeland) to point n (his uncle's kingdom), but the story is Character (young man), attribute 1(son of a lord), attribute 2(brave)... attribute n, goes from point 1(his homeland) where he meets character 1/2/3/n and does x/y/z to point 3(the borderlands) -''- to point 3(the haunted forest) -"- ... to point n(his uncle's) where he lives happily ever after. The plot may go from point 1 then jump to 5, then jump directly to point 9 in the end, while the story goes from point 1 to 2 to 3... to 9. Let's take a classical example now, Divine Comedy by Dante Alighieri ( I personally recommend it, even if you oppose religion, it's an interesting read). The plot goes like this Dante is taken by Virgilio in hell, purgatory and heaven, while he finally re-meets with his dead love, Beatrice. Yeah, the plot summarizes the whole action, but the story is much more deep: Dante is rescued by Virgilio from 3 wild animals in a dark forest, then he's taken to the hell's entrance and Virgilio presents him circle 1 of hell, where he sees Minos judging the dead, then a bunch of spirits running towards a blank flag etc.... circle 9 of hell, then circle 1 of purgatory... circle 9 of purgatory... circle 1 of heaven... circle 9 of Heaven. Of course the story is much longer, and even what I wrote can be considered just the plot, but you get the idea. You can define a story just by his plot, it's indeed very important, but not all of it, for example you can summarize 2 stories, but you can't put them on the same level if one of them is written bad, it's bland, it has no metaphors, no moral, no connotative senses, while the other one is written at a Dostoyevskyan level. The plot is just a chain of casualties, the important events of the story, while the story contains all little details and puts them head to head in order to form a chronological order of the events, even if they can be recalled via memories, which is known as narration within narration, but that's another story (pun intended)
Now it comes the bound between story and lore, yes, the plot may be interpreted in such a way to be put in any situation, I agree with you, you can have a robot/princess/scientist/convict which is saved by aliens/prince-charming/a dog/swat team. But that actually works as a counter argument to your statement, a plot is also "Queen Isabel fights the demons", a plot is also "Queen Catherine fights the demons". You see, the plot may be a little bland, but we can't define it as bad until we develop it in a state where we can a little bit more details, which is actually in the story. How are you going to define the details of the story? Using the background of course, in real world, this background is history, local color, geo-political events, real characters and so on, while the background in Ashan, is nothing else than lore. Now I also agree that the bad dialogues, the horrible presentation and the lousy cut-scenes play a big part in the negative reception of the story, but lore provides the details, the whole background of the story, it says who is who and what belongs to whom, it draws the borders, puts the conflicts on the table. The story/campaign is the materialization of lore, its projection, where am I going to find out what is the Silver League, or why the necromancers worship spiders, even if it's not part of the plot explaining these facts, it should come out from information gave out by the dialogues and altercations of the characters, even cameos or short texts or expressions used. The lore is made to serve the story, so it can have some logical and rational even (within the universe rules, for example, magic is normal in heroes). Let's take a look at Dante's Divine Comedy, if you read it, you will see that Dante and Virgilio meet a number of historical, political, religious and mythological figures, deities and creatures, as well as references of cities, cultures and countries. The target audience is also important, for example, Dante's contemporaneous were aware of these details so the background was already painted. But now we come to heroes, the creatures and heroes bios are rather vague and you need to know the actual lore in order to understand them, so the campaign should be the way to go, the campaign is poor, the campaign is projected by the lore, so therefore simple arithmetic says the lore is poor. Also, I shouldn't need to look out for lore on various sites on the internet, or to buy a special book so I can understand what's happening in the game, I doubt it's an immersive allegory so I need to check for an essay about it, the story/lore must come in package with the game I already bought.
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 07, 2015 03:57 PM |
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LW, please separate this post into paragraphs... It's unreadable...
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Okay, I read most of it, but it was still kinda a chore in this format:
Admittedly, we might all agree that the execution of the story was a failure, but we're defending the setting itself and concepts within it.
Problem is, I believe lots of things are wrong with fan reception - it's like dismissing whole universe of Star Wars, for example, because the plot one of the movies was bad.
I see plenty of reasons to improve the usage of this concept, but I have yet to see one good argument against the concept itself.
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verriker said:
when did Fiona die again? like 20 years before Heroes 5? because he's had since then to formulate a master plan lol
Exactly 40 years: 929 –> 969
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 07, 2015 04:05 PM |
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 07, 2015 04:10 PM |
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Sligneris said:
Okay, I read most of it, but it was still kinda a chore in this format:
Admittedly, we might all agree that the execution of the story was a failure, but we're defending the setting itself and concepts within it.
Problem is, I see many problems with fan reception - it's like dismissing whole universe of Star Wars, for example, because one of the movies was bad.
I see plenty of reasons to improve the usage of this concept, but I have yet to see one good argument against the concept itself.
yeah no worries, I know how you feel, I still have yet to see one good argument against bringing back Axeoth lol
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 07, 2015 04:29 PM |
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verriker said:
I still have yet to see one good argument against bringing back Axeoth lol
i have one.
Ubi would snow it up
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted April 07, 2015 04:33 PM |
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Sligneris said:
LW, please separate this post into paragraphs... It's unreadable...
I don't see what's wrong, it's nowhere near as cumbersome to read through as your average hero biography.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 07, 2015 04:36 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
i have one.
Ubi would snow it up
while I do fundamentally agree this is correct, given they've snowed pretty much everything else up at one point or another, it is still technically a matter of opinion and not a fact lol
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 07, 2015 04:41 PM |
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verriker said:
while I do fundamentally agree this is correct, given they've snowed pretty much everything else up at one point or another, it is still technically a matter of opinion and not a fact lol
doesn't make it less of an argument 
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This thread is pages long: 
