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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 06, 2014 09:01 PM |
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lokdron
Famous Hero
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posted September 06, 2014 09:09 PM |
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Edited by lokdron at 21:17, 06 Sep 2014.
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I vote no honestly I rather like Ashan and the factions/dragon god and going by the first story entry on H7 I would say they are finally developing it into something more interesting.
Personally I really liked reading the timeline and some of the things I found academy doing was rather shocking and not surprising why necropolis turned dark and ruthless in H5. I disagree none of the factions are actually friends.
Haven spends majority of their time campaigning against necropolis, dark elves (dungeon) and that whole war with the sylvan. That caused the creation of the dungeon faction.
Plus necropolis and academy have huge sparks between each other going by the timeline.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 06, 2014 09:20 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
You say things and bring no arguments, you are one of the people you hate. This has no logic, so please contribute to the discussion or stay silent.
I'm Actually willing and preared to give you argumets, but I don't feel like you would treat them as equal. In your OP the two arguments I was talking about are 2 and 3. The political scheme you purposed does not applie to all at all times it is a lot more complicated in such a way that older games look like a line compared to them. And the plotlines may be Clishe, but only as Heroes plotlines go Since they are here from game 1. And even as Clishe as Ashan is, so was Enroth at it's time, and some part of Ashan Lore are actually interesting.
Storm-Giant said:
Doesn't games develop the setting? Isn't the setting developed through different games?
That would be the case in games who develop their world through individual games. As you know, MaM games are applied to an existing setting.
Storm-Giant said:
IMO H6 has a lot to do with Ashan, just like H5; and way more than the spin offs.
Heroes VI would still be a bad game even if there was no Ashan. Therefore the setting does not influence its quality. On the other had, each spinoff makes Ashan a slightly better setting, but this will not make H6 a better game.
Storm-Giant said:
You should realize Heroes is the flagship of the series, and there are a lot of people who only plays Heroes and doesn't care about the spin offs. You can't blame them for playing the game they are interested in (because they are interested in Heroes, not in the setting).
If they are not interested in the setting, but in the game. Why do they need to care if the setting stays or goes?
Storm-Giant said:
It's Ubisoft fault to fail to reproduce the setting from a better perspective in Heroes games.
No coment here. Ubie does have a very bad way of telling the stories.
Storm-Giant said:
To me it seems you are judging very fast here, and see any criticism to Ashan like "mindless hating" and you bash them as fast as those who you despise so much
The difference is, that I see the flaws of Ashan, Boaring Haven/Dungeon factions, Ripping of WH in designe etc. . But I also see the good things like I trie to do on other games as well.
verriker said:
so, if your whole argument is founded on the basis that others suffer from nostalgia and ignorance, I'd say 1) back up the accusation of nostalgia, and 2) point out specific examples of the ignorance, instead of just spewing out disrespectful remarks which serve no purpose
Not an easy task you gave me, But I will try.
1) It is hard to point out one single thing when backing up an opinion which was created in a long time period, but I'll try to do it this way: Try to look at the people who take part in a discussion. Some of them will never acknowledge anything good about the new setting, and anything bad about the old one. Nostalgia blinded people are for me those who can't see a single good thing on a thingt they hate, and can't see a bad thing on a thing they like. Not noticing how similar they are.
2) Slightly easier than the first one. I already painted those out in this post I'll just highlight one of them. Calling the Ashan setting a one of "Uneven sides" only shows how few the writer actually wanted to show of it. It is hard to call any sides uneven when all participants have at least 2 "alias" that they would kill on sight, and that would do the same to them
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted September 06, 2014 09:42 PM |
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Quote:
I'm Actually willing and preared to give you argumets, but I don't feel like you would treat them as equal. In your OP the two arguments I was talking about are 2 and 3. The political scheme you purposed does not applie to all at all times it is a lot more complicated in such a way that older games look like a line compared to them. And the plotlines may be Clishe, but only as Heroes plotlines go Since they are here from game 1. And even as Clishe as Ashan is, so was Enroth at it's time, and some part of Ashan Lore are actually interesting.
Yes, but the MAIN theme is still the same Asha vs Urgash and they did this in all their games, the demon eclipse is like all the older games would have used the Armageddon's Blade. Urgash=Inferno, Asha=other factions. I didn't said that there aren't conflicts, it's just the main overused conflict present in every game
Quote:
I'm Actually willing and preared to give you argumets, but I don't feel like you would treat them as equal.
And you think that insulting would gain you some respect? The fact that you are rude it's a perfect reason to ignore your arguments, but I won't as I'm not like you.
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Heroes VI would still be a bad game even if there was no Ashan. Therefore the setting does not influence its quality.
I wasn't too skeptical about Ashan before h6.
Quote:
If they are not interested in the setting, but in the game. Why do they need to care if the setting stays or goes?
because in h6, lore affected too much of the gameplay/factions
Quote:
No coment here. Ubie does have a very bad way of telling the stories.
Ashan is ubi's story. It's not the game itself, it's a story. That's what you all don't understand... maybe if Ashan was a better story I'd be okay with it.
Quote:
The difference is, that I see the flaws of Ashan, Boaring Haven/Dungeon factions, Ripping of WH in designe etc. . But I also see the good things like I trie to do on other games as well.
Then why just state the good things instead of acting rude?
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Not an easy task you gave me, But I will try.
1) It is hard to point out one single thing when backing up an opinion which was created in a long time period, but I'll try to do it this way: Try to look at the people who take part in a discussion. Some of them will never acknowledge anything good about the new setting, and anything bad about the old one. Nostalgia blinded people are for me those who can't see a single good thing on a thingt they hate, and can't see a bad thing on a thing they like. Not noticing how similar they are.
2) Slightly easier than the first one. I already painted those out in this post I'll just highlight one of them. Calling the Ashan setting a one of "Uneven sides" only shows how few the writer actually wanted to show of it. It is hard to call any sides uneven when all participants have at least 2 "alias" that they would kill on sight, and that would do the same to them
1) It's an opinion thread, I stated it before. But Ashan was mutilated by the bad story-telling beyond repair. "Nostalgia blinded people", can't I say "Ubisoft Fanboy"? It's as wrong as that
2)Already answered this
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted September 06, 2014 09:43 PM |
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Edited by Raelag84 at 21:44, 06 Sep 2014.
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War-overlord said:
Raelag84 said:
Would it? People complain a lot about Ashan here (including me sometimes), but that doesn't mean there isn't a whole big customer base out there that's accepting of Ashan, if not enthusiastically supporting it.
People not realy caring about the setting that much, that I can believe. But people defending Ashan is something you rarely see here, or on CH. Where are these people then?
Quote:
Besides whenever Ewrin makes references to the old Might and magic universe it doesn't make people happy. It may have been wrong to create Ashan, but attempts to bring back the old just makes the lore seem Schizophrenic.
Who ever said anything about going back?
First
When I said "if not enthusiastically supporting it" I meant it literally. People are not supporting it, except on this thread a few are. Count me as one of them.
Secondly. How many times have we seen people claim they want to see Lizard people fortress back, or old dungeon back, or threatened to stop buying the game because the universe was changed? Even on this thread someone compared pictures of Ubi sylvan units to NWC rampart units, and expected us to see that NWC's units were better.
Thirdly. Ubisoft has a sales department that knows the businesses better than any of us. Lets not claim we can do it's job.
Anyways, the bottom line is, Ubisoft should just make the best game it can. If that means some voices are ignored then so be it. God knows my voice was.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted September 06, 2014 09:49 PM |
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People take this too serious. It's just a videogame for God's sake! I'm just asking if you would like to replace Ashan or stay with it, it's just a question. There's no right or wrong, it's just your opinion
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 06, 2014 10:07 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Heroes VI would still be a bad game even if there was no Ashan. Therefore the setting does not influence its quality. On the other had, each spinoff makes Ashan a slightly better setting, but this will not make H6 a better game.
The way the setting is presented in the game influences in its quality, because the story is part of the game.
Dave_Jame said:
If they are not interested in the setting, but in the game. Why do they need to care if the setting stays or goes?
You can't be serious. You know the current setting limits the game in:
- Number of factions (only nine possible, all well known).
- The story of the game. If they didn't like the story in previous Heroes on the same setting, it's logical they won't look to it with good eyes...
Those two are big deals
Dave_Jame said:
The difference is, that I see the flaws of Ashan, Boaring Haven/Dungeon factions, Ripping of WH in designe etc. . But I also see the good things like I trie to do on other games as well.
And I'm happy to hear that, because I believe is stupid to judge things as complex as what we are discussing as white or black.
But if the OP decides to open a thread discussing if the setting has to be scrapped, you won't expect to hear arguments in favour of the setting, do you?
Coming with rude comments like you did just generate bad mood and ruins the thread. Instead, why don't you bring arguments in favour of Ashan? This is a forum, we are here to discuss, not to hate each other
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 06, 2014 10:07 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Yes, but the MAIN theme is still the same Asha vs Urgash and they did this in all their games, the demon eclipse is like all the older games would have used the Armageddon's Blade. Urgash=Inferno, Asha=other factions. I didn't said that there aren't conflicts, it's just the main overused conflict present in every game
The Main theme of H5 is Asha(Order) vs Urgash(Chaos) Yes
The main theme of H6 is Angels (Light) vs Faceless (light)
The Main theme of H6 SoD is Void vs Reality
LizardWarrior said:
And you think that insulting would gain you some respect? The fact that you are rude it's a perfect reason to ignore your arguments, but I won't as I'm not like you.
Well you did just insult me indirectly with that last line. so pleas, where is that differenc you speak of ;-).
Btw the other parts of my post were for Storm Giant not You. but when you replaid.
LizardWarrior said:
I wasn't too skeptical about Ashan before h6.
But still the things you point out apply more to H5 then to H6. So when did exactly H6 destroyed your opinion on Ashan totaly?
LizardWarrior said:
because in h6, lore affected too much of the gameplay/factions
Did it? Or was it the other way around and the gameplay/factions design affected the way the lore was depicted. Since Ashan is a setting that is applied to a game both options are valid.
LizardWarrior said:
Ashan is ubi's story. It's not the game itself, it's a story. That's what you all don't understand... maybe if Ashan was a better story I'd be okay with it.
The story we know, should not influence the stries we don't know. As much as the core story is bad a settig is a platform and only writters influence how well it is used.
LizardWarrior said:
Then why just state the good things instead of acting rude?
Because I'm tired of it :-(, I trie to point out the good things, but topics like this, and the fact that I see both good and bad thigs, make my contribution seam like a drop in the sea.
LizardWarrior said:
1) It's an opinion thread, I stated it before. But Ashan was mutilated by the bad story-telling beyond repair. "Nostalgia blinded people", can't I say "Ubisoft Fanboy"? It's as wrong as that
The question would be, what is a Fanboy? Is it somebody who loves something and will pationatly deffend it, or a person who knows something and is willing to defend it against all odds?
I don't "LOVE" Ubies games, I Love H2 and MM6. I "KNOW" Ubies games but not a single one of them has a special place in my heart.
Storm-Giant said:
You can't be serious. You know the current setting limits the game in:
- Number of factions (only nine possible, all well known).
- The story of the game. If they didn't like the story in previous Heroes on the same setting, it's logical they won't look to it with good eyes...
Those two are big deals
I'll just point two things out
1: Where is written in stone that there can't be any new factions. You could say this back at the time of H2 but still H3 brought 3 new factions. We have a world to build on and we just explored one part of it. Who says that down south there are not large H3 style lizard towns or Inteligent insect nations. This can all come in the future.
2: Heroes is a game known for its addictable mechanics rather then good story telling. It the same as in many FPS games. The story may be bad, but that is not the reason you bought the game. Or is it?
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted September 06, 2014 10:28 PM |
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Quote:
The Main theme of H5 is Asha(Order) vs Urgash(Chaos) Yes
The main theme of H6 is Angels (Light) vs Faceless (light)
The Main theme of H6 SoD is Void vs Reality
H6 still had the overused Haven centered story and the demons present too. I stated that SoD was a step forward before.
Quote:
Well you did just insult me indirectly with that last line. so pleas, where is that differenc you speak of ;-)
That wasn't an insult, isn't true that you ruined the thread with your rude behavior?
Quote:
Did it? Or was it the other way around and the gameplay/factions design affected the way the lore was depicted. Since Ashan is a setting that is applied to a game both options are valid.
Not quite, for example look at some creatures like liches. This was mainly an aesthetic influence but...
Quote:
The story we know, should not influence the stries we don't know. As much as the core story is bad a settig is a platform and only writters influence how well it is used.
The setting is part of the story.
Quote:
Because I'm tired of it :-(, I trie to point out the good things, but topics like this, and the fact that I see both good and bad thigs, make my contribution seam like a drop in the sea.
I'm sorry, but that doesn't excuse anything.
Quote:
The question would be, what is a Fanboy? Is it somebody who loves something and will pationatly deffend it, or a person who knows something and is willing to defend it against all odds?
You called me a "blinded nostalgic", so I asked you if you'd like to be called an "Ubifanboy". I was just pointing it out, also a fanboy is someone who would defend something blindly without bringing actual arguments (exactly what you did at the beginning)
Quote:
1: Where is written in stone that there can't be any new factions. You could say this back at the time of H2 but still H3 brought 3 new factions. We have a world to build on and we just explored one part of it. Who says that down south there are not large H3 style lizard towns or Inteligent insect nations. This can all come in the future.
They stated it, it's official.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 06, 2014 10:40 PM |
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I vote No.
Personally, it doesn't matter too much which world the game is placed in, and Ashan seems to me no worse than what we have before (I would even say in some ways better). I think the factions and the way they are aligned around each other makes sense, and I like the geography of the world. Personally I don't mind the mythology about the Dragon gods, I know it receives a lot of hate, but at least there's no nonsense about demon aliens or whatelse we had in the past. Sure some of the games placed on Ashan have provided their own share of nonsense like Vampires with poison in their blood and whatnot, but those parts can be written out and are not fundamental to this world.
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What will happen now?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 06, 2014 10:40 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
I'll just point two things out
1: Where is written in stone that there can't be any new factions. You could say this back at the time of H2 but still H3 brought 3 new factions. We have a world to build on and we just explored one part of it. Who says that down south there are not large H3 style lizard towns or Inteligent insect nations. This can all come in the future.
Something something War-Overlord 
And considering we are in the third iteration and still there are no signs that they got bored of this 9 factions, I can't be hopeful.
Dave_Jame said:
2: Heroes is a game known for its addictable mechanics rather then good story telling. It the same as in many FPS games. The story may be bad, but that is not the reason you bought the game. Or is it?
The story is another important part of the game, and I expect to be at least entertaining. H2, H3 and H4 had great campaigns and I enjoyed them, since I play more single player than multi.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 06, 2014 10:44 PM |
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alcibiades said:
at least there's no nonsense about demon aliens or whatelse we had in the past.
Oh wow
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 06, 2014 10:47 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Not quite, for example look at some creatures like liches. This was mainly an aesthetic influence but...
Yes it was an aesthetic influence but aesthetics is one of the reasons the Lore exists, to make all the games visually coherent. On the other hand aesthetics are not responsible for game mechanics. Could I ask you right now to make a short list of features that you think helped Heroes VI get in the uncomfortable situation it is now? And then think if the setting could influence them. For example Town conversion was one of the main flaws of H6 for me, but I don't think the setting of Ashan had any influence on this feature.
LizardWarrior said:
The setting is part of the story.
Here we have a strong difference in points of wiev. I see the setting as platform on which I can create a story. But I have the feeling you see it more a limiting framework.
LizardWarrior said:
You called me a "blinded nostalgic", so I asked you if you'd like to be called an "Ubifanboy". I was just pointing it out, also a fanboy is someone who would defend something blindly without bringing actual arguments (exactly what you did at the beginning)
When I tried to explain the "blinded nostalgic" phrase to verriker I used the words "can't see bad" and "can't see good". It would make a nice proof of me being wrong about you, if you could point out one thing on Ashan you think is nice :-).
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted September 06, 2014 10:56 PM |
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alcibiades said:
at least there's no nonsense about demon aliens or whatelse we had in the past.
Quote:
They came from the depths of the Void, an ancient enemy of an ancient people. No-one knows why they hate us so, or why they have made war upon us. Some say the struggle against their evil is the Mandate of Heaven. Though their origins and purpose are shrouded in mystery, their plan is simple. They travel, they land, and then they conquer. Now, they are here on our world, to do to us what they have done to so many others. And they will do it - unless someone stops them.
Not very different from Urgash. Came from the void= cosmic egg created from void, enemies of the ancients=enemies of the elder races of Asha.
Quote:
LizardWarrior said:
You called me a "blinded nostalgic", so I asked you if you'd like to be called an "Ubifanboy". I was just pointing it out, also a fanboy is someone who would defend something blindly without bringing actual arguments (exactly what you did at the beginning)
When I tried to explain the "blinded nostalgic" phrase to verriker I used the words "can't see bad" and "can't see good". It would make a nice proof of me being wrong about you, if you could point out one thing on Ashan you think is nice :-).
Only if you apologize 
I liked the Void and Sandro in both DM and SoD if that counts And that wizards are pure neutral, sometimes they act like douchebags, sometimes they are good and sometimes, they are just selfish. IMO all factions should be like this, it's more realist, no good, no evil.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 06, 2014 11:01 PM |
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I voted No. I think that many of the problems ascribed to the Ashan universe would more accurately be ascribed to Ubisoft and the developers. It's not a problem with the world itself. And even then, they're not that bad. As for Ashan being boring - compared to what? The old universe was interesting, but you never saw the interesting parts in the HoMM part of it anyway - only in MM - because fans started sending death threats when NWC wanted to add a Forge Town. The fans just wanted their fantasy preserved. And now they're complaining about the fantasy being boring.
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Eccentric Opinion
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 06, 2014 11:14 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Something something War-Overlord
i believe that you or war overlord or other old members did a great job in this forum and continue to do so. thank you for that.
BUT that does not mean that whatever war overlord or any other members, are gods and what they say is the law. i don't agree with what war overlord said because they were right about not doing anything new till the 9 factions are well established. in a good game. when this has come to pass (as i mentioned) then they will try to add more new stuff. practically what i said but it got ignored because i'm not a veteran here just because.
no "something something war-overlord" is not an answer.
when we have a working game with all 9 factions present, working 100% (like heroes 3 worked fine and then they added conflux) then we can expect new stuff. ashan has potential (for the billionth time).
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 06, 2014 11:15 PM |
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Now I will do something I maybe should have done in the first place:
I asked here what are the limits, and wanted to point out that Ashan is not as bad as people think
Ubisoft made a lot of limits to their world. With bounding factions to elements, and gods. Giving them specific regions and so on. But these limitations were more then often later changed or used as plot elements. For Example, back in the times of H5 Rakshasa were described as spirits, but that did not stop Ubi from changing them to Beastman later. Similarly Orcs were described as Demon Bashers, creatures that hate Demons from the root of their existance. But Still in H6 the first plot device we encounter is a Shaman selling his soul to a demon to achieve his vengence. And in DoC an entire clan of orcs is depicted as influenced by Urgash, the creator of those they hate so so much.
Similar the nagas were described as creatures needing water, but again in DoC we see a groupe of naga who live in the direct opposite of their natural environment, in the desert, just to be out of the reach of the emperess influence.
The thing I wanted to point out is, that more then once Ubi created an arteficial limit just to create an intresting contrast later. Saing that now, they don't feel the need to explore something new, does not have to mean exactly what it says.
Also I know the story is very Haven centered, but I think it would be sad if the more interesting and unique nations, that I actually think are well made, did not receive a proper opportunity to shine.
For me the whole concept and design of the Stronghold and Sanctuary factions is something that could deserve more attention. If anybody would ask me, to name a one reason why Ashan should not be scraped, It would be the designs of these two factions.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted September 06, 2014 11:17 PM |
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Was it that hard?
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 06, 2014 11:25 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Only if you apologize
I liked the Void and Sandro in both DM and SoD if that counts And that wizards are pure neutral, sometimes they act like douchebags, sometimes they are good and sometimes, they are just selfish. IMO all factions should be like this, it's more realist, no good, no evil.
Ok I do
And this is one thing I think you misjudged on Ashan. Most of the factions are very gray and neutral. Orcs don't blindly hate everything to be evil. They hate those who enslaved them, and those who killed their children. I think Ashan is one of the few settings which shows orcs as a race that generally gets along well with Elves and Dwarves.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 06, 2014 11:41 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
Storm-Giant said:
Something something War-Overlord
i believe that you or war overlord or other old members did a great job in this forum and continue to do so. thank you for that.
BUT that does not mean that whatever war overlord or any other members, are gods and what they say is the law. i don't agree with what war overlord said because they were right about not doing anything new till the 9 factions are well established. in a good game. when this has come to pass (as i mentioned) then they will try to add more new stuff. practically what i said but it got ignored because i'm not a veteran here just because.
no "something something war-overlord" is not an answer.
when we have a working game with all 9 factions present, working 100% (like heroes 3 worked fine and then they added conflux) then we can expect new stuff. ashan has potential (for the billionth time).
Emmm...I don't think you said the same.
WO quoted Ubisoft, and from those words I understand first they want to iterate several times the nine factions and, when they feel they are at "their full potential", they would bring something new.
Having all 9 factions featured on a single game isn't the same.
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