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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 07, 2014 12:06 AM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Emmm...I don't think you said the same.
WO quoted Ubisoft, and from those words I understand first they want to iterate several times the nine factions and, when they feel they are at "their full potential", they would bring something new.
Having all 9 factions featured on a single game isn't the same.
"well can we first wait to see and play a heroes game with ALL faction available? and then maybe it would be time to move on."
that's what i said.happened to be the same thing that was quoted from ubisoft later.
how can they add a new faction when they still haven't figured everyhting out (from plot till gameplay) and haven't put it to the test? by test means a FULL game. again heroes 3 added conflux in an expansion when the game had reached a certain level of potential.
how can you expect that to happen with ashan? ashan is still a baby. but let me guess. war overlord said otherwise.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 07, 2014 12:13 AM |
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I think "We've yet to develop the factions we already to what we feel is their full potential." means showing different versions of each faction (like Orcs, there are three main types of them), telling stories of each faction etc...
If Heroes V featured all nine factions, I don't think Ubisoft would think they would feel the nine factions reached it full potential, since they'd still have a lot to show (see Ashan timeline).
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 07, 2014 12:29 AM |
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Storm-Giant said:
I think "We've yet to develop the factions we already to what we feel is their full potential." means showing different versions of each faction (like Orcs, there are three main types of them), telling stories of each faction etc...
If Heroes V featured all nine factions, I don't think Ubisoft would think they would feel the nine factions reached it full potential, since they'd still have a lot to show (see Ashan timeline).
even so, ashan is far from reaching its full potential once we see what the other factions are really about. they are actually still showcasing some factions (naga, dungeon, foretress, sylvan).
we still have a lot to see. what was stated by ubisoft can obviously be translated a little different (like how you did just now saying what you said about showing different versions) than "we are gonna bore you with these ones till we think something better in the future."so no point redirecting to one person's point of view like it's a fact. they can still add factions and the possibilites are endless. ashan isn't the obstacle that some people make it seem. it's the writers.
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Naze
Known Hero
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posted September 07, 2014 12:37 AM |
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My answer is a slight no... Ashan is not that bad.
I agree with you in the points 1 and 2 - dragon deities are really stupid and the plot is pretty crappy as well.
Before diving into point 3, I will first comment on why I don't agree with you in point 4. Yes, fantasy races are copied from one book/film/game to another over and over again. But why should they create some new, when the old ones are good? Plus, it's easier for people to relate with traditional fantasy races, than with new ones. It's like draenei (space goats) in WoW... they were added in the first expansion, and till today they feel kind of weird and out of place. Heck, even pandas make more sense, then some crystal-loving light-worshipping russian-accent-speaking hoofed and tailed aliens.
Another example is Guild Wars - they created new "original" races. But are they really that new and original? Just look at them: Norn - stout, viking-inspired, traditional warriors hunting dragons. Well, that's dwarves. Sylvari are elves (they even have a nightmare faction, like dark elves), asura are gnomes and charr are technically skilled orcs.
So, you see, there is nothing bad about traditional fantasy races. In fact, I prefer them to some original mock-ups, that lack the depth and distinction.
And now, on to point 3. I don't find all vs. Inferno strange at all. In fact, it's pretty logical. You can find similarities even in our world. Just look how everybody formed a temporary alliance against Nazi Germany in WW2.
Or even in contemporary global politics. Iran and the USA didn't have good relationship at all, but when facing the threat of ISIS, they joint their forces.
So, if you are in a fantasy world (like Ashan) and you are fighting your little struggles with another nation, and suddenly there comes an invasion of other-worldly beings (like demons), who threaten to destroy the whole world... won't you join forces with your former enemy to kick their a***s? I know, it's not original or refreshing at all - we had demon invasions in both Heroes 5 and 6. But I wouldn't say it's illogical - in fact, it's one of the few parts of Ashan story, where it makes sense.
However, I agree, I would rather see an invasion-free game, without Inferno and demons. Just play for the nations native to Ashan. And having not-Haven as the main protagonist. That would be great.
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted September 07, 2014 02:03 AM |
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LizardWarrior said:
People take this too serious. It's just a videogame for God's sake! I'm just asking if you would like to replace Ashan or stay with it, it's just a question. There's no right or wrong, it's just your opinion
Even so, I am glad to get some of this stuff off my chest. It's been there for years.
Anyways... If Ashan were to be scraped, what could it be replaced with that would be better?
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PyroStock
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 07, 2014 03:14 AM |
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If you don't like the story they wrote then there is little reason to assume you will probably like a completely new story from the exact same people who would now make it from scratch. And even if *you* did like it there would be someone else (or more) making this thread a year later about how the new story sucks.
They aren't a restaurant where you only have to wait another 15-40minutes for them to get your new order right. They should spend that time instead on making a good AI or game balance or many other things so it has better replay value.
If you want a good story read a good novel made by a good writer or use your imagination in the game.
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VOKIALBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted September 07, 2014 08:41 AM |
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Edited by VOKIALBG at 08:50, 07 Sep 2014.
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LizardWarrior said:
4.Cliche races and factions
Ashan stripped Heroes of Might and Magic of originality, Rampart/Sorceress/Nature faction became a boring, over-used Tolkien elven faction, dwarves were given their own cliche Tolkien faction, they copied a copy of a copy with the dark elves stolen from warhammer and ruined dungeon forever, barbarian faction became stereotypical orcs. These ideas are so overused in the fantasy games that they became annoying, can't be there more originality? Can't they invent new races? Why they must always copy these?Counter Counter-arguments: "But previous heroes games used stereotypes and copied from other sources too", they at least gave them some originality and changed some, with Ashan they aren't even trying
I say: YES.
And the quote here is the most important imo. The most unique about NWC heroes was the fact that you can play with... different standart races.
First the conception was different. It wasnt just pure "race" as in Ubiheroes. It was a place. A town. So in the game as rampart you dont have "the elves", but the creatures that dwell in the forest and protect it. Counter Counter-arguments: "but why was dwarves with the elves, they are so so, different?" Yes, as races, but they both dwell in the same place/state/forest and are friendly, so they go to war together and for the sake of their home.
In the classical heroes you have barbarians, not orcs. And the barbaric town wasnt pure race. They are like the black sheeps of many different societies.
Yes, you have orcs, but they are VERY unique and have nothing ot do with the orc we know from Tolkien.
And what to say for towns that you'll never see in another game like Fortress and Conflux and even this type of mage town - Tower.
In Ashan we have this limitation of races. They are copied from the other games/shows/novels and are exactly the same as the thig they copied.
The dragon god thing is impossible to happen. You cant have some many races warship all dragons.
Its also very strange that we have only pure races and in the human, elves, dwarves and etc... kingdom. THERE MUST be at least one tribe somewhere in the forests of Iralloran thats not elvish, but... lets say troglodytish (for the sake of the example). In H3 its easy to explain it: you have this "smaller" races and tribes as part of the HUGE faction, as part of the town. In H5+ you dont have things like this. And this doesnt look cool. This is also not logical. The very magic in the old heroes games for was to discover again and again and again all the hidden contend of the game. To be ambushed by rogues, to find more map location and new creatures that you've never seen, and the last time was long ago.
@Naze: You are not right in this. Especially the RL history part. Even Hitler was having many allies, and he wasnt alone in the war.
@Stevie: Picture spam is normally nor tolerated in HC, you have nothing to say - dont post. This I say as a moderator (but friendly).
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 07, 2014 09:44 AM |
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@VokialBG: Maybe it is just what I used to grow up with, but I see Regional/environmental alignment as cliche and overused as the current Diet/Race alignment.
You gave the example of orcs being unique in the older games, different than the current common version (I'll take the Warhammer Orc as the prodigy in this), but the pig/boar like orcs are not that unique at all. Or at least I have encountered them i several works like books, board games, and other media.
Environmental vs Diet alignments also have both pros and cons. For example it looks natural to put creatures from one region into one army, but in a more realistic scenario, most of the creatures would be natural rivals competing for their living space. Not to mention that in some cases members of one race that would have no problem to coexist are put against each other as enemies.
On the other hand a diet based system allows your characters to change environment, or even the diet as free as they want.
In both cases, the particular approach gives you opportunities what to use, but also limitations in the same field.
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VOKIALBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted September 07, 2014 09:59 AM |
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Its what you grown up with. There aren't any other fantasy games with Regional/environmental alignments. And orcs in olders heroes games warn't just orcs. They were more. They were the barbarians, not just the orcs.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 07, 2014 10:04 AM |
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VOKIALBG said:
Its what you grown up with. There aren't any other fantasy games with Regional/environmental alignments. And orcs in olders heroes games warn't just orcs. They were more. They were the barbarians, not just the orcs.
Magic the gathering? Most D&D games?
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted September 07, 2014 10:05 AM |
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Edited by Avonu at 10:12, 07 Sep 2014.
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Storm-Giant said:
WO quoted Ubisoft, and from those words I understand first they want to iterate several times the nine factions and, when they feel they are at "their full potential", they would bring something new.
Having all 9 factions featured on a single game isn't the same.
I just wonder, how many of you still remember that Ubisoft first was saying about ten factions but later cut that number to nine?
IIRC tenth faction were Dragon Knights but later Ubisoft decided that better to not making them another castle in Heroes (I wonder how many dragons they would have?  ).
Same with Free Cities - in theory they also could be another faction/castle with different Dragon God (Ylath) and creatures (some of cities are on East near Orcs, some on South near Nagas and Necromacers, some on West near Elves and Dwarves, etc.) - plenty of possibilities to mix standard Ashan line-ups, but for some reason Ubisoft decided, that Free Cities wouldn't be a faction.
BTW - so far we only saw mainland of Thallan continent, but if you look at Ashan map, you realize there are still unknown areas to explore: Far East beyond Ranaar, continent South of Jade Sea and probably other continents on West from Savage Sea, Irisus Sea and Thallan at all.
In MMX is said that one of NPC sailed to West to go where no man was before  , so there is a hope we see something new... someday.
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted September 07, 2014 10:05 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
Storm-Giant said:
I think "We've yet to develop the factions we already to what we feel is their full potential." means showing different versions of each faction (like Orcs, there are three main types of them), telling stories of each faction etc...
If Heroes V featured all nine factions, I don't think Ubisoft would think they would feel the nine factions reached it full potential, since they'd still have a lot to show (see Ashan timeline).
even so, ashan is far from reaching its full potential once we see what the other factions are really about. they are actually still showcasing some factions (naga, dungeon, foretress, sylvan).
we still have a lot to see. what was stated by ubisoft can obviously be translated a little different (like how you did just now saying what you said about showing different versions) than "we are gonna bore you with these ones till we think something better in the future."so no point redirecting to one person's point of view like it's a fact. they can still add factions and the possibilites are endless. ashan isn't the obstacle that some people make it seem. it's the writers.
Just to clarify things here, I never actually quoted Ubisoft. If I did, I would have added a link as reference. I made the quote up, which should have been clear by me quoting ubisoft/Erwan and not the actual person or interview.
The "quote" is something I think exceptionally likely and one of those marketing stringing along answers. Fans have asked similar questions in the past and gotten similar answers.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted September 07, 2014 02:08 PM |
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I challenge anyone who thinks Ashan should be scraped to create a world. Post it somewhere, and I will read about it, but expect me to be honest.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 07, 2014 02:15 PM |
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The real question is.. what world would ubi create next if Ashan was discarded? The team that made Ashan would still be there if you get my meaning.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 07, 2014 04:16 PM |
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hey Lizard Warrior, I think most people here have agreed that the big problem is with the incumbent team of hacks who created this world and are driving it into the ground, more so than the world itself per say
your thread title should probably have been "Should Erwin be scraped" lol
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 07, 2014 04:53 PM |
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Elvin said:
The real question is.. what world would ubi create next if Ashan was discarded? The team that made Ashan would still be there if you get my meaning.
Excellent note, Elvin! Discard the team. All of it, starting with the producer.
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VOKIALBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted September 07, 2014 04:59 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Elvin said:
The real question is.. what world would ubi create next if Ashan was discarded? The team that made Ashan would still be there if you get my meaning.
Excellent note, Elvin! Discard the team. All of it, starting with the producer.
The first we need is bringing back the father of MM - JVC. Then we need the old NWC team back and to start with another HoMM5, pretending that the Ubival one never existed. If I was a billionaire, I would work for that
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted September 07, 2014 05:05 PM |
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Raelag84 said:
I challenge anyone who thinks Ashan should be scraped to create a world. Post it somewhere, and I will read about it, but expect me to be honest.
<troll mode> You first! </troll mode>
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 07, 2014 05:09 PM |
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VOKIALBG said:
The first we need is bringing back the father of MM - JVC. Then we need the old NWC team back and to start with another HoMM5, pretending that the Ubival one never existed. If I was a billionaire, I would work for that
Best post of all the thread.
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alex_yakub
Famous Hero
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posted September 07, 2014 05:23 PM |
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Guys, really, this oldschool fanatism is getting out of control. If not Ubisoft and their Heroes 5, the series would be dead, and M&MH series would be remembered as "those old strategy games everyone played when they were in school", and this very forum would be a little community, unknown for the outside world, not the big fansite we know and love.
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This thread is pages long: 
