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| Thread: Upgrades |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Paiazza
Known Hero
لىخ ضل
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posted September 18, 2014 08:38 AM |
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Poll Question:
Upgrades
What kind of upgrades do you want? and here we have 2 types:
 Normal - Emphasized upgrade.
Slight difference between normal and upgraded versions of creatures.
 slight additions
bigger/better body parts for monsters
bigger/better weapons/armors for humanoids
color nuance change
Caterpillar - Butterfly upgrade.
Considerable difference between normal and upgraded version of creature.
almost complete look, but still same creatures
physical/psychical link in between versions if appearance change
color change
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 18, 2014 08:45 AM |
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Voted normal, I think units should look more as if they just received a promotion and not like they just "final-form'd".
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 18, 2014 08:56 AM |
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Voted normal, although there are probably a few creatures for which butterfly would be the better option.
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Alex_Yakub
Famous Hero
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posted September 18, 2014 08:58 AM |
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It's hard to shoose. Taking Sylvan creatures as example, root snake, when upgraded to python, must definately be changed from adder-looking to, well, python-looking. On the other hand, all numanoid units, like hunters and druids, will most likely just have more naturey outfits. My point is, animals and magic creatures should have "butterfly" upgrades, while humanoids should have "normal" upgrades
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Moriak71
Hired Hero
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posted September 18, 2014 09:03 AM |
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Voted normal, as the majority would most likely have the "simple" upgrade. But I can't wait to see, if they come up with some smart upgrades.
And will we have again a decision between 2 upgrades?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 18, 2014 10:04 AM |
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Slight difference only doesn't make much sense, because in case of a slight difference the upgrade is never an option until you have all the basic creatures built, except if you are forced to go for upgrades, since you'd need it for something in the build chain.
"Significant" difference is what I would wish for.
A good example are HoMM 5 Gremlins and their upgrades. The basic Gremlin is a simple shooter without abilities - except shooting, of course, which is rather helpful, considering the HoMM 3 version, making the upgrade a necessity; you don't NEED to upgrade them, since you CAN use them vanilla, although their initiative is quite low, which is bad in terms of damage output.
The upgrade is significant insofar that not only their direct combat value is increased due to the increase in initiative and ammo (plus a couple slight stat adjustments), they also get a useful ability, that may have impact on your play. (The ability to repair Golems (in connection with a satisfactory speed for a shooter) gives Golems additional value, so you can adopt a different play style for them.)
This means, you do not MECHANICALLY upgrade the unit "when the time has come", because it simply makes the unit a better unit; instead the upgrade gives you an option that you wouldn't have otherwise.
That's what an upgrade should do, ideally.
In fact, I think that HoMM 5 hit it quite well, all in all: not too many active abilities on creatures, especially not on basic creatures, even creatures with no ability at all (Blade Dancer, for example), and even Stats that got WORSE for the upgrade (Druids come to mind, the Upgrades having LESS HPs and Speed, or Banshees having fewer Attack than basic Wights).
An example for a creature that sucks conceptionally and is an example of how it shouldn't be would be the Horned Demon in HoMM 5. If you look at them - their biggest flaw is their initiative of 7. Both upgrades get only a slight increase to 8, making the unit rather, well, unimportant, whether basic or upgrade. Their speed is ok-ish, but because of the 5 they are a bit on the fragile side with their 13 HPs, that are not upped either, and since 1-2 is the lowest possible damage at all - and it's a Level 2 creature, not Level 1 - makes the increase to 1-4 insignificant.
That leaves the abilities, which are good, but it doesn't change the fact that the unit acts too rarely; also, the Grunt becomes a glass cannon, and glass cannons with low initiative ... well.
So the basic unit is completely and utterly useless, and it's only purpose is to direct any creeping losses away from the Imps and to them, and since the upgrade is rather expensive it doesn't come easy.
Bottom line is, the basic unit should have been either the Overseer (maybe with slightly lower stats), the upgrade simply adding the Leap and the better stats, or vice versa, the alternative upgrade being something different; you might have a basic leaper, one upgrade giving Explosion, the other maybe a higher initiative or something like that.
The alternative would be that not all units get/need an upgrade: The Horned Grunt would be a unit you could simply have without an upgrade (and for the price of the dwelling upgrade.
In any case the aim would be to avoid redundancies - abilities for abilities' sake, upgrades for upgrades' sake.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 18, 2014 10:06 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 10:07, 18 Sep 2014.
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I thought this poll was about aesthetics, not abilities.
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Paiazza
Known Hero
لىخ ضل
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posted September 18, 2014 10:10 AM |
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This is in fact about everything that regards the creatures. Upgrades should be felt not just press a "upgrade" button at the cost of some resources / new building in town plus a bit of better stats for creatures.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 18, 2014 10:18 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 10:22, 18 Sep 2014.
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Maybe you should edit the OP and specify this then, because as is,
there seems to be a lot of emphasis put on appearance.
Which option are those who'd like meaningful upgrades but subtle changes appearance-wise meant to pick?
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Paiazza
Known Hero
لىخ ضل
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posted September 18, 2014 10:22 AM |
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Editing denied as poll started. But I think that the mechanical part of the creatures had been implied.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 18, 2014 10:23 AM |
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So, again... Which option are those who'd like meaningful upgrades but subtle changes appearance-wise meant to pick?
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Paiazza
Known Hero
لىخ ضل
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posted September 18, 2014 10:33 AM |
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That would be something like this:
AA
AB
BB
BA
where
A = considerable
B = slight
first letter = appearance
second letter = mechanics
But that implied both AA and BB altogether.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 18, 2014 10:38 AM |
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Eh, it's easier to just detract my vote. -1 to normal.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 18, 2014 02:25 PM |
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Gameplay speaking, it's better that upgrades give significant improvements so you may not go for all 7 unupgraded creatures first.
Visually speaking, a mix. A lot of creatures should get some minor/medium changes in their model, but a few of them would benefit from a different look (Angel/Archangel comes to my mind  )
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Doomhammer
Known Hero
Smasher of pasties
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posted September 18, 2014 02:41 PM |
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I voted for normal upgrades. Not sure how you could implement catapillar upgrades on all creatures, just wouldn't work with some 
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted September 22, 2014 02:26 PM |
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The key to upgrades, for me, would be to tie them into the rest of the game so that the upgrade options at the player’s disposal are determined by other developments.
For example, if you have a plain Giant as an unupgraded unit, and a lightning-wielding Titan as the upgraded unit, make the upgrade available only if the player is able to provide a source of lightning to the town – via another lightning-wielding unit being present, a lightning-based artefact, or a spell in the hero’s spellbook.
Visual changes should then reflect the nature of the upgrade, and could be either normal-emphasised or caterpillar-butterfly.
This approach would make upgrades less predetermined and more situational, hopefully resulting in greater replayability.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted April 08, 2015 03:02 AM |
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Not a fan of upgrades much. If there was any, something meaningful must come from them. Then, I would be inclined for a more radical form of it, and not only a set of make up. I still prefer having none.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted April 08, 2015 09:02 AM |
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Edited by blob2 at 09:03, 08 Apr 2015.
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Gotta catch 'em all! Voted Normal as any other is marked as Heresy by the Spinquisition (myself included)!
Though I would really like to see that Dragon->Mega Dragon->Giga Dragon toy line... I mean, unit line... line-up!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 08, 2015 09:56 AM |
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When it comes to gameplay, significant change. Visuals depend on a number of things. Bad@ss units like an archangel or vampire lord deserve a butterfly upgrade. More plain units like the marksman don't need more than a change of uniform and an improved crossbow. Magical units like pixies would be better off with a butterfly upgrade. Then there is the matter of faction mentality(would expect runepriests to be decorated but dearven defenders not so much) and unit growth. Lore-wise giving the sentinels an oberblown upgrade makes sense, given the praetorian background. But it is ridiculous when that unit is core and has a high growth. The lore tells you the unit is special and the game mass-produces it as if it's a cheap imitation.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 08, 2015 10:25 AM |
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Basic units that are mostly used as cannon fodder can have simple status upgrades turning them into better cannon fodder (or you can claim that ideally, no unit should be just cannon fodder) but mostly I agree with JJ and his example of the H5 gremlin. Another good example would be the H3 Genie. Also some upgrades may be just considerable options depending on your tactics like the Green to Gold/Red to Black Dragon of H3. Immunity to level 4/5 spells can be good or bad depending on the way you play, what spells and artifacts you have (certainly not the way to go if you have Ressurection and lots of mana), faction of your enemy (Tower or Barbarian), etc...
Of course, you wont have each unit with special abilities and some units will be just plain melee combat units. They have their place and turning each unit into a spell caster or specialist may be even overcomplicated. Some of these fighter units may gain extra resistance or immunity to certain spells or damage types though, developing passive skills. Still, I think it's a matter of balance and although a significant (more than half probably) amount of units should upgrade H5 Gremlin style, some should remain as simple fighters with better status.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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