|
| Thread: The Multitude of Elves | |
|
Sorts
Known Hero
|
posted September 22, 2014 01:47 AM |
|
|
The Multitude of Elves
Well, this is going to come sooner or later and i prefer to see some other topic than OMG Blue Phoenix Chicken or Fury being the only true Sylvan or other that nonsense.
And yes, im going to defend dark elves being the sort of central race in dungeon.
I see nothing wrong in having two factions that have elves as a central race,* since it has been a very common fantasy theme for a rather long time. Most literature and gaming separates them into two or three subraces, going mostly with the high/light/wood and dark or high, wood and dark model, depending on the number of elven groups. Even NWC used that trope having the Wood elves of Avlee, Snow elves of Vori (every description given has a "high elfish" feel) and the dark elves of Alvar.** And some fantasy settings go a bit overboard with this, like Forgotten Realms having probably more elven subraces than human cultures (and there are like 14+ elven subraces in D&D 3.5 sourcebooks, making even elven fanboys feel that this is a bit wrong).
*Why no whining that academy and tbh necropolis have humans as a central race.
**I have fan theory that the elves in H1 and H2 are mercenaries from Alvar, considering their brownish skin and comments in MM6 that there are no elves in Enroth (although that might be one of those nice NWC inconsistencies).
So its a common thing to have two or three, probably competing and/or hostile to eachother, as long they have a different feel to them and there is some decent work done with them.
Secondly dungeon needed a "humanoidish" and semi-relatable race as a central. Also something that has a presence in fantasy as a powerful and iconic "underworld race" A lot monstrous races are just mooks to bigger bads, unknown or unremarkable, in some cases even too alien. A the same time dark elves (especially the drow version) are a well known, iconic race, that often are a central threat, dangerous masterminds and paymasters/slavemasters to the mooks mentioned before. Having minotaurs or perhaps some other race instead them. A possibility. But that list, outside of just inventing a race, is rather small.
So let's go to Ashan and we see it having three races of elves. Dark, sea and sylvan. The sea elves are a minor group and the sylvan ones aren't the focus here.
H5 made a number of mistakes, one of them was the Nival's love of copying warhammer fantasy. The lineup was bad and the presentation too. The Ashan Compendium and H6 took a different and better approach, retconning most of that stuff out or leaving it to later demon corruptions and/or throwing it to clan soulscar. Instead of mainly dakr elf army, we got a force supported by minotaurs, manticores) and creatures of darkness (including of course the shadow/black dragons.
And yeah, i don't feel that dark elves should have all the fun. Add minotaur heroes and have them to play a role during the dungeon campaign. Take strong steps in making them different from their sylvan cousin, but perhaps leave in elements that still both of them as elves.
|
|
Stormcaller
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 22, 2014 01:55 AM |
|
|
I command you to vote for Inferno. Discover your inner demon and wreck the snow out of cave dwellers.
____________
What makes a King? Some say it is a birthright, while others call it a destiny.
|
|
Raelag84
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 22, 2014 02:00 AM |
|
|
Stormcaller said:
I command you to vote for Inferno. Discover your inner demon and wreck the snow out of cave dwellers.
Oh you and me are just gonna have a hel'uv a time ain't we? (cracks knuckles.)
|
|
TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
|
|
posted September 22, 2014 02:36 AM |
|
|
I say vote Inferno as well, but meh, I don't really think inferno fits the council idea UBi is trying to present, while I'd love it regardless.
That said, I couldn't care less about elves. I just like the sub-units in Dungeon, circa H3.
... and I WANT THEM EFREETI BACK :K
____________
|
|
DarkLord
Supreme Hero
Fear me..
|
|
posted September 22, 2014 04:11 AM |
|
|
dont let the demons seduce you..
embrace the dark shadows of the elves!
black dragon , minotaurs, manticores..
dungeon FTW!
|
|
lokdron
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 22, 2014 05:19 AM |
|
Edited by lokdron at 05:32, 22 Sep 2014.
|
Stormcaller said:
I command you to vote for Inferno. Discover your inner demon and wreck the snow out of cave dwellers.
I am in full agreement with stormcaller embrace fire! embrace freedom! Embrace chaos! Embrace Urgash!
Ontopic: The reason why I don't want dungeon is because we already have an elven faction. We already have a faction that covers darkness magic already necropolis. If inferno loses we will not have faction that specializes in fire magic. Plus I really like demons/devils more than elves.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted September 22, 2014 07:23 AM |
|
|
|
I'm not a particular fan of Dungeon and could gladly live without them but I'm even less keen on a return of Inferno, so I'll probably go with Dungeon for now. Fortress and Sanctuary would have been preferred however.
|
|
Royin
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted September 22, 2014 07:36 AM |
|
|
alcibiades said:
I'm not a particular fan of Dungeon and could gladly live without them but I'm even less keen on a return of Inferno, so I'll probably go with Dungeon for now. Fortress and Sanctuary would have been preferred however.
But we'll need a "bad guy" faction ;D
|
|
moonshade
Known Hero
|
|
posted September 22, 2014 08:10 AM |
|
|
What I would do...
I'd put Dungeon in, with this line-up:
Core:
Troglodyte- the return of a classic unit, this time in a more badass, armored form (wielding halberds) to fit the Dungeon's new feel (not cannon fodder like in H3). A tank unit.
Stalker- twin-dagger wielding male Dark Elves, PERHAPS with strike and return. A fast walker/skirmisher.
Medusa- since Sanctuary are out this time, give us back our Medusas- corrupt Nagas who joined the Dungeon forces, armed with bows. Alternately- Beholders, as they also fit the underground feel.
Elite:
Minotaur- fast and deadly (unlike H6), one of the best Elites (like the H3 Minotaur)
Mistress- a female Dark Elf ranged spellcaster, with debuff spells
Chimera- A multi-headed, flying beast, with an area attack like the Cerberus and perhaps poison. Alternately- a Dark Elven Drake Rider, or a burrowing Worm (being a kind of "flier", burrowing underground etc.).
Champion:
Black Dragon- I would make them again the most powerful Champion in the game (but also most expensive).
Faceless- this time, they would be powerful spellcasters with offensive, mind-control and illusory magic (example: Darkbolt, Meteor Shower, Berserk and Clone) but physically weak and vulnerable. Having a Champion spellcaster will force a real choice between them and Black Dragons, and also fit their role as equal rivals to the Angels
Ideally, I would've made Black Dragons Boss units, and make the Champion tier a choice between Faceless and Hydras. I would really like Hydras to return- perhaps as a Sanctuary unit with a new Asian look (google some real-world pictures of Naga- they're multiheaded snakes, not snake-like humanoids!) if they return in an expansion, or a neutral unit affiliated with the Dungeon/underground or swamp terrains.
About Inferno- I would make some Demon units (the basics: Imp, Cerberus, Legion (a renamed Horned Demon), Succubus/Incubus and either Pit Lord or Fallen Angel- a new unit, being burning, corrupt Angels similar to Sarah from H6) available through summoning spells, and fully reintroduce Inferno in an expansion. That's their possible roster:
Core:
Imp- ranged, semi-spellcaster
Legion- your standard Horned Demon. If they're boring, a couple of replacement suggestions: Gogs/Magogs (this time as melee tanks, but with similar- though taller and more muscular- looks), Fiends (winged, flying Demons), Wracked (ever-changing Chaos-charged Demons with attributes and abilities changing every round) or Possessed (demon-controlled human cultists)
Orthos/Cerberus (2-headed upgraded to 3-headed)
Elite:
Succubus/Incubus- similar to the Fate Weaver, they're able to change shape between the Succubus- a ranged unit with some debuff spells/abilities and Incubus- a more sturdy melee form
Efreet- powerful fliers and offensive spellcasters
Chaos Knight- a heavy melee unit, corrupt human knight riding Nightmares or some other Demonic beast. Alternately- Juggernaughts
Champion:
Pit Lord- similar to H6, as the Efreet now fill the offensive caster slot. Tanks with powerful abilities.
Fallen Angel- more frail than Pit Lords, but faster, slightly more damaging and with debuff or even support abilities (perhaps casting Sacrifice, as mirror to the normal Angel's Resurrection- and with Gating, that could be one powerful ability). Alternate suggestions: Chaos Wyrm (similar to Urgash's awesome sketch), Devil/Abyssal Lord or Breeder.
|
|
EPICUSDOOMICUS
Known Hero
|
|
posted September 22, 2014 08:19 AM |
|
|
DarkLord said:
dont let the demons seduce you..
embrace the dark shadows of the elves!
black dragon , minotaurs, manticores..
dungeon FTW!
Hail to that!!!!!!!
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted September 22, 2014 10:01 AM |
|
|
Sorts said:
*Why no whining that academy and tbh necropolis have humans as a central race.
Because there the 'humans' are limited, respectively, to one unit and no units, whereas Dungeon had first four Elves, then two.
|
|
Doomhammer
Known Hero
Smasher of pasties
|
|
posted September 22, 2014 10:33 AM |
|
|
I loved dungeon in previous games but i wasn't fussed with the whole dark elves thing. I think elves should only be in sylvan. I will vote for infreno over dungeon. Gota love them red guys 
|
|
War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
|
|
posted September 22, 2014 10:37 AM |
|
|
Sorts said:
Having minotaurs or perhaps some other race instead them. A possibility.
I've been saying for years that it would have been far beter to make Minotaurs the core-race of Dungeon. As much as can be spoken of such, they were in Heroes III & IV.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
|
|
Steyn
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted September 22, 2014 11:44 AM |
|
|
War-overlord said:
Sorts said:
Having minotaurs or perhaps some other race instead them. A possibility.
I've been saying for years that it would have been far beter to make Minotaurs the core-race of Dungeon. As much as can be spoken of such, they were in Heroes III & IV.
They should definitely get a more prominent role than they had in heroes V and VI. Still I also like the lore behind the darkelves, so I want them to stay. Imo the best option would be to have them both as main race (with perhaps also the faceless). I don't see why it would be a problem. In heroes III, all factions contained two or three main races, so in Ashan it should be possible for one or two factions.
I say two, because I think the beastmen should be featured more as stronghold heroes, not only orcs and the occasional human.
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted September 22, 2014 02:42 PM |
|
|
Steyn said:
War-overlord said:
Sorts said:
Having minotaurs or perhaps some other race instead them. A possibility.
I've been saying for years that it would have been far beter to make Minotaurs the core-race of Dungeon. As much as can be spoken of such, they were in Heroes III & IV.
They should definitely get a more prominent role than they had in heroes V and VI. Still I also like the lore behind the darkelves, so I want them to stay. Imo the best option would be to have them both as main race (with perhaps also the faceless). I don't see why it would be a problem. In heroes III, all factions contained two or three main races, so in Ashan it should be possible for one or two factions.
I say two, because I think the beastmen should be featured more as stronghold heroes, not only orcs and the occasional human.
Totally agree. It feels too restrictive to only have 1 race 'leading' each faction, seeing Minotaurs gaining power in Dungeon ranks'd be awesome, and it'd help to stop seeing Dungeon just as the Dark Elves faction.
I wish Ubisoft was more open with Factions in Ashan...
____________
|
|
verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
|
|
posted September 22, 2014 02:48 PM |
|
|
War-overlord said:
I've been saying for years that it would have been far beter to make Minotaurs the core-race of Dungeon. As much as can be spoken of such, they were in Heroes III & IV.
could not agree with you more, this would have been awesome
it's pretty atrocious what's been done to the minotaurs in Ashan, sidelined in favor of Warhammer + Warcraft ripoff purple elves, enslaved and muzzled, turned purple themselves, and they don't even get a single tavern hero
shameful
|
|
Stormcaller
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 22, 2014 06:14 PM |
|
|
Quote:
the core-race of Dungeon
I'd say better core race of Stronghold. It makes sense considering Orcs free slaves and Minotaurs are slaves. That way Stronghold would incorporate beastmen + orcs, and fans of H3 Fortress would be satisfied.
____________
What makes a King? Some say it is a birthright, while others call it a destiny.
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted September 22, 2014 09:11 PM |
|
|
|
I'm sorry, I don't understand, taking an iconic unit out of the Dungeon and sticking it in Stronghold somehow makes fans of H3 Fortress happy? Sounds like nonsense to me.
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted September 22, 2014 10:53 PM |
|
|
Leave the badass Minotaurs on Dungeon, thank you.
Stronghold has much more room for beasts in their lineup and lore.
____________
|
|
Sorts
Known Hero
|
|
posted September 23, 2014 05:13 AM |
|
|
Stormcaller said:
Quote:
the core-race of Dungeon
I'd say better core race of Stronghold. It makes sense considering Orcs free slaves and Minotaurs are slaves. That way Stronghold would incorporate beastmen + orcs, and fans of H3 Fortress would be satisfied.
And be blamed of ripping of Warcraft 3/World of Warcraft.
|
| |
|
|
