|
| Thread: Bring the mythology back! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
|
LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
|
posted September 25, 2014 10:46 PM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 05 Oct 2014. |
|
Bring the mythology back!
Since the beginning, real life mythology and folklore played a big part in Heroes series, it was the very core of the series, something that bound the game universe together, it was the structure of the game itself. Ancient and medieval symbolism were omnipresent in factions, troops, adventure objects, resources and artifacts. This also had an educational value, I don't want to sound too nostalgic, but most of us played this game when we were kids and it thought us about the ancient cultures and myths, sparked our interests for legends and folklore. I believe that this was one of the most important element in the heroes series and it should continue with every installment. There are a lot of cultures with interesting myths and legends which could be incorporated into a Heroes game, most of them are obscure and would turn to be innovative and fresh.
With the newer installments, especially H6 I feel that this "tradition" starts to fade away. The only exception in H6 are Kirin and Yuki-Ona, they were a perfect example of what I could call "Old universe tradition", but sadly they were shadowed by the fantasy cliches, failed originality and butchered classic mythological creatures. I feel that every cheap Tolkien copy, overused in so many fantasy games, takes the spot for one unique mythic creature, every copycat from another game push away an interesting creature from the forgotten folklore of an old civilization. I don't know why they should make 2 races of elves and paint them in different colors then call both different races for different factions, I don't understand why they put 6 dwarves in h5 instead of using mythic creatures. Please no more fantasy cliches, no more cheap copies from other games, in a time where there are tons of games on the market, being unique means a lot.
The theme based factions were much better than the race based ones we have seen, in the older installments, the line-ups just felt right, there was no need for explanation, factions should bend the lore, not vice versa. Let's take the H2 warlock town for example, it was a town of mythology, they had centaurs, minotaurs, hydras and griffins which were from Greek Mythology, then Gargoyles and Dragons from European medieval folklore, Gargoyles represented the evil from outside the churches in the middle ages, they were "stone demons", while Dragons where main antagonists in legends and fairy tales. They aren't united by a race, but by symbolism which is represented by the hero, Warlock. It was a monstrous town, there was no need to explain it by lore, it simply bend the lore to fit in. What may seem as a group of random creatures is in fact a symbol, that's the core of the Heroes game.
Originality is good, but it's not an excuse for butchering the well-known mythological creatures beyond their core. Let's take the H6 Cerberus for example, what's the most prominent feature of this mythic dog? Its three heads. Indeed it's true that other sources may give more heads, sometimes even 7, 50 or 100, but the 3 heads had been the iconic feature for centuries, as it is depicted in greek vases, sculptures and medieval paintings. But they could have used Orthrus, Cerberus brother, which has 2 heads, it would introduce a new mythic less-known creature to the series and everything would have been good, just a string of chars in a vector or array, not even 1 minute of work. Things also work the other way around, for example the coral priestess, why didn't they rename her to medusa? A mythological creature used before in the series and was basically the same. A name, a reference means a lot.
Now let's talk about the resources. Two well-known resources that had been around since the beginning, mercury and sulfur are replaced. Mercury, also known as Quicksilver, a liquid metal extracted from the cinnabar crystals has fascinated people since ancient times, an important element used in alchemy and magic rites, people thought it was a cure for a large variety of disease, even having proprieties which would give someone immortality or the ability to morph lesser metals into gold and silver. Sulfur or brimstone associated with volcanoes and demons, it's smell of rotten eggs made ancient and medieval cultures to attribute it magical proprieties, let's not forget that it's an ingredient for gunpowder and other explosives and has certified medical proprieties which are even used today! Perfect real resources, full of mysticism and perfectly fitting in a medieval game.
Please Limbic, throw away these fantasy cliches, these Tolkien copycats and inspire more from medieval heraldry and folklore, from ancient mythology and culture, respect the history and mirror it into this epic games with a long legacy!
|
|
jackson
Known Hero
Random Spirit Lover
|
|
posted September 25, 2014 11:07 PM |
|
|
|
+1, particularly on the part about mythology and mythological creatures.
|
|
Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
|
|
posted September 25, 2014 11:15 PM |
|
|
H6 didn't continue that tradition?
Lamasu, Namtaru, Ghoul, nearly all Sanctuary (not just Snow Maiden and Kirin) - and that's to name only new guys.
Yeah, Ashan has it's own variation of mythological creatues (I too don't welcome 2-headed cerberus), but nonetheless it still teachs kids. They find new unknown unit? Use Wikipedia, learn more.
I'm in no way protecting H6 in general, but mythological "touch" was there for me.
And don't tell me that previous installments did everything right, for Cerberus and Medusa were mass-produced, Medusas are archers, Rocs are much smaller etc.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
|
|
Kimarous
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted September 25, 2014 11:19 PM |
|
|
Sandro400 said:
H6 didn't continue that tradition?
Lamasu, Namtaru, Ghoul, nearly all Sanctuary (not just Snow Maiden and Kirin) - and that's to name only new guys.
Yeah, Ashan has it's own variation of mythological creatues (I too don't welcome 2-headed cerberus), but nonetheless it still teachs kids. They find new unknown unit? Use Vikipedia, learn more.
I'm in no way protecting H6 in general, but mythological "touch" was there for me.
And don't tell me that previous installments did everything right, for Cerberus and Medusa were mass-produced, Medusas are archers, Rocs are much smaller etc.
Agreed on all points.
____________
|
|
Paiazza
Known Hero
لىخ ضل
|
|
posted September 25, 2014 11:21 PM |
|
|
This isn't about mythological or new made creatures, this is about something else in our perception of the game and likeness as i will explain further.
Okay, so let's see what really is the difference between mythic age and new age creatures. Well there is none except the coefficient of imagination of the creator of the creature. In simple words this means mythological creatures are invented creatures in a very old past and new creatures are creatures invented now but that is exactly the opposite of what matters, in fact the mind that created them is what makes the difference. Of course the time affected the mentality of imagination.
What makes us all like mythological creatures more is because they are legendary. Some chemicals in our brain make us like more things that we already know since a very long time and recognizing them again will accentuate that more and more literally creating the legendary effect.
Newly invented creatures lack originality and quality due to low imagination, as they tend to be copies of copies of copies only re-mastered. What made mythological creatures to be so likeable was that they were purely original and not copied from something else. And here again I come to bring a paradox as an argument. Mythological creatures were in fact deviated copies from reality without actually wanting to alter their nature where new-age creatures are on purpose unnatural which is exactly what makes them dull rather than fantastic.
Creating a very good lore and then bring those creatures to life in games is the key here.
|
|
Alex_Yakub
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 25, 2014 11:24 PM |
|
|
Sandro400 said:
H6 didn't continue that tradition?
Lamasu, Namtaru, Ghoul, nearly all Sanctuary (not just Snow Maiden and Kirin) - and that's to name only new guys.
Yeah, Ashan has it's own variation of mythological creatues (I too don't welcome 2-headed cerberus), but nonetheless it still teachs kids. They find new unknown unit? Use Vikipedia, learn more.
I'm in no way protecting H6 in general, but mythological "touch" was there for me.
And don't tell me that previous installments did everything right, for Cerberus and Medusa were mass-produced, Medusas are archers, Rocs are much smaller etc.
+100500
P.S.: Sorry to bother you, but are you Sandro400 from the russian Heroes forum?
____________
|
|
Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
|
|
posted September 25, 2014 11:36 PM |
|
|
Well, personnaly I think that Ashan has pretty good lore (Do not confuse with in-game campagns, that's a matter for another talk) and it did good job on reintroducing mythological creatures. BUT ofc they failed here and there.
1) Cerberus in H6 was a fail imo.
2) Snow Maidens and Yuki-Onnas - who're pretty much the same - are fail (I mean their names).
3) Medusa - partially fail. On one hand, they have pretty good background. On the other hand, her trademark stone gaze is gone (they even did a little pun towards it in PotSS).
And, as a "honorific" mention: Black Dragons. Yeah, the new design is AWESOME and I love it. But... is this a Black Dragon?
And another BUT: the whole Necro, Phoenixes, Beastman, Kirins, Djinns, Succubus etc - I like how they're incarnated in Ashan 
Alex_Yakub said:
P.S.: Sorry to bother you, but are you Sandro400 from the russian Heroes forum?
The one and only
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
|
|
Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 25, 2014 11:41 PM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 07 Sep 2015. |
|
You only want classical or myth units, huh? Okay then...
No treants for you. These were created by Wizards of the Coast, because of copyright issues with Ent. Do you want ents? They started off in Tolkien, so no more of them.
Orcs are now pig men, or just big guys, same as ogres.
If we use Norse myth, we can get Elves, Dark elves, and Dwarves. Back to square one with those guys. Good Luck.
Say good bye to liches. Their first instance was, as far as I can tell, in 1946. Otherwise, they were mages/wizards who brought others back to life, or just a necromancer. Lich just means "corpse". Want a mummy to replace them? The first time a mummy was not just a burial ritual, but instead a monster, was in 1827, as far as I can tell, and that mummy was brought into the twenty second century (year 2100+). Is this classical enough? Venom Spawn ain't no thing.
Gog and Magog are either just people or places. Pit fiend comes from D&D, or is just another ordinary name for Demon. A classical nightmare is just a succubus/incubus, or a witch in a variety of forms.
Gorgon (in its H3, bovine form) is a D&D fabrication. Otherwise, it'd just be Medusa again.
Beholders are yet another fabrication of D&D, and Evil Eyes are at best a talisman against a curse, or is the curse the talisman protects against. Neither is a beast. And I'm not quite sure if troglodytes fit. No dinosaurs of any kind, though dragons suffice.
No halflings, as those are just another Tolkien creation. No Dragon Golems, as beyond a Golem (by mythology) necessitating a human form, none have dared remake a dragon. Gremlins weren't a thing until aviation via powered flight, otherwise you are looking for an imp.
It sure is fun having only mythological and classical creatures! Except, not really.
As stated before, creatures need not be only from mythology or just plainly not made up. However, it needs to have a good quality.
As well, H6 still brought in new creatures, and even didn't use the cliched ones, like a Lamasu instead of a Sphinx. And Namtar (the Namtaru's name sake) is a being not unlike the Grim Reaper, another creature of Mesopotamian origin. As well as those Sanctuary creatures (Kappa, Kirin, Yuki Onna).
Though I'd rather Mercury just be called Quicksilver, as you said, it is extracted from crystals. Why have the two be separate? Crystals already was a resource.
|
|
Alex_Yakub
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 25, 2014 11:42 PM |
|
|
Sandro400 said:
Alex_Yakub said:
P.S.: Sorry to bother you, but are you Sandro400 from the russian Heroes forum?
The one and only
I knew it  Nice to meet a familiar face here 
____________
|
|
Doomhammer
Known Hero
Smasher of pasties
|
|
posted September 26, 2014 01:21 AM |
|
|
+1 LizardWarrior well said sir.
|
|
Moriak71
Hired Hero
|
|
posted September 26, 2014 08:28 AM |
|
|
well, it would be quite boring only to have mythological creatures.
But - the whole we cant do that because of Ashan and we cant to this because of Ashan is irritating.
I didn't need any explanation for the old games - they feel right.
And I totally agree that too much lore is killing this game.
I say - scrap Ashan and do whatever the hell you want, dear developers.
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted September 26, 2014 09:13 AM |
|
|
Protolisk said:
Though I'd rather Mercury just be called Quicksilver, as you said, it is extracted from crystals. Why have the two be separate? Crystals already was a resource.
Because the application of Crystals is different from the application of Mercury, ingame. You can more or less derive this from the buildings that require one or the other.
|
|
Alex_Yakub
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 26, 2014 09:29 AM |
|
|
I have a feeling this is quickly turning into another "scrap Ashan" thread. I don't like that.
____________
|
|
verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
|
|
posted September 26, 2014 09:48 AM |
|
|
while I think I agree with the spirit of this thread in principle, I would change the language of the argument a little
I think the term you may be looking for LizardWarrior is not just mythological creatures, but stock fantasy creatures
the type of familiar monsters everyone would expect to see in Dungeons and Dragons (the parent of the original Might and Magic), and a billion other fantasy worlds
because of that, I don't think it's right to say we don't want Tolkien cliches or that we want more originality,
borrowing creatures from myths is not original, it's unoriginal, and I'm unashamed about that and even think it's the correct way to go
Heroes 2 was basically a celebration of and tribute to pop culture fantasy, and everybody loved it
originality is often bad, I mean having Lich with flesh who worships the moon, drinks spider blood and eventually turns into a Vampire could be described as pretty original, but that doesn't stop it from sucking ass as an idea, which it totally does lol
basically I want stock fantasy creatures handled in the same kind of style as Heroes 2 and 3, with no cheap copying from whatever competitor franchise is in vogue unless it's traditional D&D, just give me what I expect from classic fantasy, nice and simple
I don't want to listen to any of this unintelligent rubbish about moon nests, or suicidal volcano dwarves turning into giants, or no trolls and halflings in Ashan because reasons, or who knows what else
just follow the example set by the old games and stop imposing this crap lore which not even the developers, let alone fans can even keep track of, on every aspect of Heroes, pretty please and thank you
end rant lol
|
|
Kimarous
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted September 26, 2014 10:00 AM |
|
|
verriker said:
originality is often bad
basically I want stock fantasy creatures handled in the same kind of style as Heroes 2 and 3
just follow the example set by the old games and stop imposing this crap lore which not even the developers, let alone fans can even keep track of, on every aspect of Heroes, pretty please and thank you
You, sir, are a foobum who stands against my personal values and therefore should duly be ignored.
____________
|
|
cleglaw
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 26, 2014 10:03 AM |
|
Edited by cleglaw at 10:32, 26 Sep 2014.
|
Alex_Yakub said:
I have a feeling this is quickly turning into another "scrap Ashan" thread. I don't like that.
+1 to Protolisk & +1 to Alex_Yakub
you cant just categorise and seperate creatures like that. mythology is a thing to use as inspiration. its not black or white, its gray. even if you want to use as mythology in "pure" state, you will still always end in an area of gray. Even mythological creatures have different versions in history. it differs from one place to another.
and the thing is- you call butchering, i call ashan. accept it guys, there are more then dozens of fantasy settings that are using similair creatures in different ways. learn to love them in their own worlds and with their own rules.
they can use gargoyle but they may change lore of it. or they may take medusa but they may use as a priestess in a water themed faction. they can imagine a new material and name it dragonsteel instead of using real life material. they may like the idea of cerberus but they may also use it with 2-head.
what i understand is, you are just telling your personal taste shaped by your long-existed habits. its fine you to state your tastes, but you cant really use them to judge ashan.
ashan is ashan, although its here for a while now, it is still in process of exploration and they have freedom to do whatever they want to do in unexplored places.
im with peace in this. i want to see a new setting, i want to see a original world instead of a copy world. thats why i dont judge them.
devs are even writing lore for resources. this all effort is for creating unique new world. like all fantasy settings, it will surely share some similair things with other settings on some points and it is completely fine for them to deciede which way they gonna make things similair which way not. this is exactly what originallity is.
|
|
verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
|
|
posted September 26, 2014 10:07 AM |
|
|
Kimarous said:
You, sir, are a foobum who stands against my personal values and therefore should duly be ignored.
never thought I'd be the one to say this to someone,
but wow, thanks for the personal insult, instead of adding even a semi-constructive post with actual thoughts or arguments
|
|
Kimarous
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted September 26, 2014 10:21 AM |
|
|
verriker said:
never thought I'd be the one to say this to someone,
but wow, thanks for the personal insult, instead of adding even a semi-constructive post with actual thoughts or arguments
Okay, how about:
I am a firm believer in original content (indeed, I'm working on my own fantasy series in my personal writings and have reinvented certain concepts within that universe), and you expressed what sounds like a "They changed it, now it sucks" mentality that refuses to move on from the past... a mindset that I cannot abide. Nostalgia is one thing, but when you ask for elements from way back when that have no bearing on the now, you've completely lost me. I like Heroes 3 too, but this isn't Erathia and 3DO anymore. It's time to move on.
Besides, I kinda like Ashan.
____________
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 26, 2014 10:30 AM |
|
|
I see it like this:
- Mythological creatures don't need to be extremely altered to the point they're unrecognizable, but kept as close as possible to the original.
- New creatures must be written to be interesting. I don't find a problem with having something new just because it's new. I like new things, I find it a lot easier and fulfilling to create something from scratch unrestricted by lore and myths.
Just my thoughts. I don't have a problem with either mythological or new creatures per se. It's their implementation and introduction that I usually dislike.
|
|
verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
|
|
posted September 26, 2014 10:37 AM |
|
|
Kimarous said:
how about
thank you for expending the effort to make an actual counterpoint, then, appreciated
mine would be
1) no, I'm not expressing nostalgia, because as I've said before, I played H5 before any other Heroes game, so there are no rose-tinted goggles here
2) no, I'm categorically not saying it sucks because somebody changed the status quo of Heroes, which is a strawman, I'm saying they specifically (Ubisoft) have failed in their specific attempts to improve the status quo, and should quit trying to fix what was in my opinion never broken,
I think you're more than welcome to have the reverse opinion, but don't just come in and call people names like a three year old
3) you might want to reconsider what seems to be your blanket statement that the past is irrelevant and the present is all that matters or the patronising "move on", because that's a mindset I cannot abide,
I mean no offense, but I usually need not point out how things are not automatically superior because they are new or in vogue
4) you should probably have said "Enroth and NWC" instead of "Erathia and 3DO" lol
|
| |
|
|
