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| Thread: Regarding Flanking |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 29, 2014 03:59 PM |
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You do not really answer to the points. What you describe is a different game, not HoMM 4. Think HoMM 5. Add flanking: -> fail.
That easy.
Flanking can have only 2 "rewards"
1) Damage bonus
2) Retaliation malus or retaliation avoiding
or even both.
HOWEVER, attacker has the advantage in HoMM anyway, especially since we are back to HoMM 5 with somewhat tougher level 1 creatures. Keep in mind, once the retaliation is done with, you can clobber a unit any way you like.
Simultaneous retaliation, flanking bringing a retaliation damage reduction doesn't change anything: Your aim in HoMM 4 is getting "First Strike". This would be your aim here as well.
Instead, the thing is pretty simple:
In HoMM, when it comes to retaliation a unit can
a) have a retaliation left or
b) has no retaliation left
In case a, why would a unit be flankable? The unit has a retaliation left which translates into being on guard. So no flanking.
In case b the unit has no retaliation left, so everyone can beat it up however they want. So flanking makes no sense either.
You have to keep in mind that we have stacks with many units - how will you flank 100 Pikemen which are on guard?
So I keep to my opinion that flanking isn't going to add something good to the game, no matter how it's going to be implemented.
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted December 29, 2014 04:12 PM |
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When I first started playing H3 I intuitively attacked creatures from behind if it was possible, because it made more sense than attacking head-on. I think it's natural to have a flanking bonus. It should however be a small bonus.
As far as I've understood they intend this to be a little extra spice to combat, and not an entirely new ingredient. Therefore it's important that they add it with moderation, otherwise it might ruin the whole meal.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 29, 2014 04:59 PM |
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JJ has a point tho ...
I mean think about it this way. When unit you attack has retaliation left it will "turn to face" your unit. When you attack it with new unit it's the same as if it was "flanked". So it dosen't retaliate. Flaniking makes the most sence to already engaged units anyway.
However i do feel this may add more dept to the combat as unit facing is suddenly important, while before it was not. And changes llike that are wellcome in my book. The cover system i realy like. This is because combat has not improved any since the first game.
I would realy like to see improvements in siege battles the most tho. They are stale... Like diferent form of defences for diferent factions, or more dors. Like 3 dors instead of 1 would be cool, so there's more entry points. Another cool change imo would be higth diference. Like if there's a cliff in battlegrounds or something. Or a lone tower which you can put your archer into in middle of the battleground. Or a wheater effects. If rains it can make units "soaked" and more prone to ice or lightning damage for instance.... things like that.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted December 29, 2014 10:54 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
Flaniking makes the most sence to already engaged units anyway.
There is no real concept of engagement in Heroes aside from the 3 second action sequence between to units a unit ignores everything outside its occupied tiles. I personally agree with JJ completely the flanking system does fit with Heroes traditional mechanics.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 29, 2014 11:08 PM |
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Gryphs said:
There is no real concept of engagement in Heroes aside from the 3 second action sequence between to units a unit ignores everything outside its occupied tiles. I personally agree with JJ completely the flanking system does fit with Heroes traditional mechanics.
As far as I understood JJ was talking on how it wouldn't make sence to include flanking ....
Engagement is more than 3 second action. It is only presented this way coz you have turn based combat. The action takes longer period of time, in fact, it takes a full turn before units can "disengage", and one of the reasons unit can not retaliate is because it's percived to be still "in combat". Yes i know it takes a bit of immagination, but that's how all turn based things work ....
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted December 29, 2014 11:28 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
The action takes longer period of time, in fact, it takes a full turn before units can "disengage", and one of the reasons unit can not retaliate is because it's percived to be still "in combat".
Then what is the point of adding a extra damage system if the bonus for flanking is already there i.e. the unit is unable to retaliate, I believe was JJ's original point and was what I agreed with.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 30, 2014 08:38 AM |
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yes... so i guess we agree that we agree ... basicaly
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 30, 2014 09:12 AM |
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Flanking is a concept that works fine with single units: a unit is engaged in combat and another unit sneaks in from behind. Ouch. That's not happening, though with unit STACKS: 100 Pikemen are attacked by 10 Riders. Also, 20 Goblins sneaking in from behind. Not really a problem for the Pikeys.
There are additional problems, that have to be solved by changing or adding to the combat mechanics (or if not solved will make things silly).
You need to be able to manually turn units to correct their facing and/or
You need to be able to pick your way SQUARE FOR SQUARE (no path-searching routine), which means, you need to be able to move in increments or to set waypoints (which isn't the case in the games)
It's also a feature that rewards maneuverability: flying is great, especially when you are a single-square flyer: you can give a harpy hag a standard damage bonus for permanent flanking (so in reality, with flanking, their damage would be lowered); too bad for 4-square walkers, though.
And you need a general opportunity hit/ZOC system - you can't move from one adjacent square to another of the same unit, without getting a hit, except if the unit is engaged otherwise (but again, since combat is with stacks ... well).
You may of course change something else in the combat system. Examples:
Battlefield Terrain (costing different MPs and having different effects, for example, wet terrain making Lightning more and Fire less effective)
You could also transfer leftover movement allowance into additional retaliations or even attacks (in a very basic way, for example: if a unit doesn't move it gets an additional attack and an additional retaliation, and if a unit has more than half of its MA left it gets an additional retaliation. You might also have an option that a unit that's either waiting or hasn't got it's turn this round can forego its attack for an additional retaliation ...
Many options to change something.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 30, 2014 10:37 AM |
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Edited by artu at 10:56, 30 Dec 2014.
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Well, you bring up valid objections JJ but I dont think stacks and having to arrange things realistically according to the notion of stacks is one of them. To me, it's quite obvious that in practicality, the stacks function as hit points in many cases. Think of things like Medusa's stone gaze or Manticore's paralyze for instance, they have X percent chance of casting those, so what happens when 10 Medusas attack 100 pikemen, all of them somehow hit that 10 percent chance of stoning on all the pikemen? How is that? How about farming Demons, if half of my stack already died, why cant I farm demons with them, because until all of them do, there is not a single body on the battlefield. I have a Dwarf standing over the body of 50 titans, so the enemy doesnt resurrect them, how does a dwarf stand over 50 Titan bodies? 2 skeletons stand next to 280 archers and none of them can shoot? The stacks actually, only result in a layered HP mechanism where high level creatures are less in stack but higher in actual HP, so they have an advantage, they don't melt down when striking back, even with 2 HP left, an Angel still attacks full damage where as if you hit 100 pikemen and 50 die, their potential damage is now halved. Other than that, stacks function just like HP.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 30, 2014 11:52 AM |
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That works in both directions, though: any notion of a flanking attack being "realistic" is as invalid as the flanking attack being unrealistic because it's actually lots of units.
No, the main points are game mechanics - you need to modify the system a lot to make that work, and the consequences are not even positive. I won't even start with the idea of a "scrolling" BF (fringe hexes are a benefit because no flanking is possible, which is another advantage for shooter units).
Also, every ability dealing with flanking will be a must-have, and so on and so forth. (Example: Back-Guarding: if two friendly units are adjacent with each other they cannot be flanked.)
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted December 30, 2014 11:54 AM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
yes... so i guess we agree that we agree ... basicaly
Pretty much.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 30, 2014 12:27 PM |
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Edited by artu at 12:42, 30 Dec 2014.
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Quote:
That works in both directions, though: any notion of a flanking attack being "realistic" is as invalid as the flanking attack being unrealistic because it's actually lots of units.
Personally, I didn't like it (or more accurately, sympathize with it) because it's realistic. If applied correctly somehow, it has the potential to bring diversity, variation and a little more strategical depth to the game, but once again, they shouldn't exaggerate it, just a sprinkle. You know how very rarely a sports match's winner is determined by a last minute goal by some penalty shot, it should have a similar magnitude, in, say, 1 percent of the games, you using flanking should turn the tides against an opponent. It would be fun that way.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 31, 2014 01:37 AM |
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I'm not convinced by this Flanking shizz at all. The only way I see it working is if it grants some minor values like +10% damage on Flank and +20% damage on Backstab. Like, it's not supposed to be something so big that you'd go into battle thinking "watch me how I flank this". It's supposed to be situational, something you'd consider if you see an opportunity, something that'd make you put in the balance if doing more damage is more important than positioning. Something extra, not a core feature. Maybe might heroes could even have some perks for it to spice things up even more. So it could make for interesting things, but it's probably gonna need tweaking and adjusting until the balancing formula is met.
All that talk about different ways of implementations, with many additions and such, gives me a headache. I thought this was supposed to be something simpler. Oh, and that idea about reintroducing simultaneous retaliation, like in Heroes 4.. No. Just NO! Blast it out of orbit! I don't want to see something like that ever again.
I want my combats to be more in the lines of what we saw with Heroes 5 especially. Innovations can be good, and I hope flanking is one of them, but I do hope that it won't break that feel that combat has to have. If it's something too radical and game defining/alienating then imo it has a high chance of failure.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 31, 2014 02:55 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 02:58, 31 Dec 2014.
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artu said:
You know how very rarely a sports match's winner is determined by a last minute goal by some penalty shot, it should have a similar magnitude, in, say, 1 percent of the games, you using flanking should turn the tides against an opponent. It would be fun that way.
if it is only 1% of the time, then it is useless
and when it comes to extra damage, isn't luck a bigger offender than a potential flanking?
there are battles that get totally one sided because the right unit got a lucky blow.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 31, 2014 08:35 AM |
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It could give morale penalty instead. -1 morale for any unit that attacks it, beyond the first. The penalty only lasts until next turn.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted December 31, 2014 08:56 AM |
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Stevie said:
I'm not convinced by this Flanking shizz at all. The only way I see it working is if it grants some minor values like +10% damage on Flank and +20% damage on Backstab.
Exactly, that would be just enough. 20% more damage is quite a bonus but it is not big enough to break a game. I would be surprised if bonuses added would be greater than this.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 31, 2014 07:54 PM |
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Okay, let me try it another way round.
a) Imagine, there were one or a few units with the ability "Backstab": No Enemy Retaliation and a damage bonus or attacking from directly behind. There were also a couple of units with the ability "Flanking": a retaliation malus and/or a damage bonus when attacking from the sides or behind.
Sound good?
b) Advanced hero abilities enabling that, probably in offense or as racials, for example Stronghold.
Makes sense?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 31, 2014 08:00 PM |
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Yes. I think it's a much better idea than flanking implemented as a general mechanic. Giving melee bonuses and specialties to might units would make them more interesting, one of the main problems about might units is that they are usually dull to play with, compared to the magic units, things like this would overcome that.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted December 31, 2014 08:09 PM |
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artu said:
Yes. I think it's a much better idea than flanking implemented as a general mechanic. Giving melee bonuses and specialties to might units would make them more interesting, one of the main problems about might units is that they are usually dull to play with, compared to the magic units, things like this would overcome that.
What do you mean by "magic units"? You know that in Heroes VII split for units dealing might and magic damage will be removed?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 31, 2014 08:19 PM |
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I didn't know that. Still, I presume some units will have specialties that are magical abilities on paper even if they aren't implanted as a categorically different damage type, where as might units will simply hit or shoot. So, the idea can still work in terms of creating variation.
I think, it's a bad idea to remove magic damage and might damage being separate, btw.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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