Hello fellow adventurers heroes, as we all know in the last time there were a few scandals regarding Necropolis and the game world created by Ubisoft, commenting sections were setting ablaze by vitriol and rage, so on you know the story. But let's discuss the subject of these so called "riots", "spamming sprees", "community rage", the Great January-February Sandro Revolution. The first spark was the revealing of the Necropolis Core: ultra-spiky robot Mr.sketlal, h6-inspired ghost, 3spooky5me spider. The spider theme was ultra-utilized, it was present on the skeleton's shield, skeleton's shorts, he even had spider legs as spikes, there was of course a spider. A large group of fans didn't like it, so they made a movement, there was ofc spam, rage and vitriol, yet the beautiful snow hit the fan only when they revealed the elite tier of the necropolis, which surprise surprise was identical to the one from H6, which fans stated X times that they are awful during the H6 development, but ofc Ubi doesn't give a jolly hoot when they can save a buck (it rhymes ), they tried to attenuate the impact by revealing both champion and elite tiers at once, it didn't work as intended tough. The spider theme was again omnipresent, on lich's back, robe, staff, vampire's armor, sword and so on. Recently they decided to put more gas on the burning mouth of hell, just because Ubi likes to see the world burn and showed a Necropolis screen deeply inspired from Sumerian and Spiderian culture, the "city" (if we can call that carnival a city, now it fits perfectly with the h6 circus theme ) is a spider itself and looks like someone watched Wild Wild West too many times and finally proved the popular theory that someone at the Ubi MM headquarters has a Spider Fetish (#1 entry). So... let's see... spiders and undead combo, Sumerian-Egyptian influenced architecture, long haired immortal undead knights, it sounds so familiar, because it is, it starts with War and finished with Craft, Warcraft@Blizzard. Yes, exactly, Ubi Heroes has taken inspiration fromcopied a lot of elements from Warcraft universe, of course it's not a single case, just a special snowflake in a blizzard of copy-cats (pun intended), but Heroes and Might and Magic has a big legacy, and Ubisoft is a giant corporation, they can't just go an rip off things from other franchises, no? Well, Games-workshop sued them when they copy-pasted the dark elves in H5, but yet they carelessly do it again, maybe more subtle than that, but still screaming at the top of their lungs, now they just don't use a megaphone. Now you are going to say: but Heroes I-IV and Might and Magic copied things too. Well I don't say that they didn't (but let's also take a look at what they copied, DnD and Tolkien's books which aren't videogames, but board games and books), but MM team also say "muh Ashan" and brings "originality" to a hypocrite level, they try to look that they are a special snowflake by making a Frankenstein, for example we can't have skeletal liches (now all pro-Ashans are gonna throw things at me and all anti-Ashans will throw them back with baseball bats) because "lore" and lore=special, for example in most fantasy works, liches are superior to vampires, and aren't linked, but in Ashan, vampires are the next stage of liches, so they try to be original in the most useless ways, while they massively "inspire" from others. There is also a link between Warcraft and Might and Magic, but before we go on, I will remind you that Might and Magic came in 1986 and is 8 years older than Warcraft which came in 1994. So in M&M, there is a highly advanced race, named the Ancients, which colonize planets and try to create a perfect ecological and social microcosmos through experimentation, then in Warcraft are the Titans, which act as Modern America and Late-Medieval Spain in order to mess up with planets and their inhabitants, they create new flora, fauna and geographical landmarks using technology, in M&M, Kreegans (aka devils) are the enemies of the Ancients, they come from the Void and cause chaos, then there is the Burning Legion (aka demons) in Warcraft which are the enemies of the Titans and are led by a fallen titan, Sargeras, they want to cause chaos and destroy the universe then recreate it as they see it fit. Coincidence? Maybe. Warcraft copied M&M? Possible. Did the wheel turn? Absolutely!
THE GREEN DEAD "if you think you are looking at green gibberish, then you are 100% correct"
Okay, let's start with Necropolis since it's a hot topic now. Ashan's Necropolis has green has a dominant green color, but not any kind of green, the toxic green which hurts your eyes, while H5 had a darker shade of green and a few toxic green spots, prepare for H6 where the radiant green made you want gauge your eyes out (or exit the game, depends on your sanity), every necro unit in H6 looks like uranium glassware under UV light, maybe it was some kind of strategy, blind your enemies with lights, but that doesn't support why they got light vulnerability, h7 toned it a bit and replaced it with purple on creatures. But stay a moment, who else has green and purple associated with undead, yeah, mother-hugging Warcraft, there Blight is the green thing undead produce, in the RTS game, the corrupted ground on which the undead race can build on is called blight, it has a dark greyish-greenish hue and it occasionally pops clouds of toxic green smoke (the same hue as the H6-H7 toxic green), also undead main building (Necropolis, equivalent to Town Center in AOE) has canals which drop a toxic green fluid on the ground (the building is floating). In WOW, the forsaken (good playable undead) modified the scourge's (evil undead) plague which caused the blight into a caustic sticky substance which dissolves the flesh (much like napalm) and renders the ground uninhabitable, and guess the color? And yes, the color is DAMNtoxicGREEN. You are going to say "But blight is very different from the spider queen's venom". Maybe their source is different, but let's think about it, the original plague (blight is the corrupted soil) of the Scourge corrupts the ground (as we can see H6-H7 necro ground is far from being healthy, even tough in H6 they stay among the living), grain infected by the plague transforms people into undead (sacred spider venom transforms people into liches and vampire), is lethal for the living, but beneficial for the dead (except the new plague which burns any kind of flesh). Also WH:40KNecrons,Gameworkshop has sued them once, but they seem to don't learn, also necrons have robo-spiders too, considering H7 spiders look like robots too, that's a double reason
ARCHITECTURE Even more coincidences
We haven't finished with Necropolis yet, now let's talk about architecture. While H5 Necropolis was just a forest of spikes and thorns, H6 and H7 adopted a mixed Sumerian-Egyptian(maybe a little mesoamerican too) spiced with spikes style. I don't say that mixing cultural influences is bad, but the style is a bit exaggerated, colors even more, especially green and black. Well, Warhammer has an Egyptian themed undead too, but Ashan's style is different, no? From Warhammer (except from Necrons ) style yes, as it is purely Egyptian, but it's almost identical to the one of Warcraft's undead and nerubians. In Warcraft, the undead/nerubian style is a mix of Sumerian and Egyptian (again we can also see a few mesoamerican elements), there are a lot of ziggurats, obelisks, pyramidal shapes, mastabas which are also found in H6-H7 necropolises. Can you believe this is a coincidence? I can't. Also, let's not forget the spikes and spider-legs, a lot of warcraft undead buildings have spiky bone structures which resemble spider legs, exactly like the ones in H6/H7 and what a coincidence! Some of them resemble perfectly these, they even got the spikes on their edges! You are going to say that "Undead used nerubian buildings whose empire they conquered!", you are correct, but also: "Ner'zhul adopted the nerubians' distinctive architectural style for his own fortresses and structures"(wowwiki.com), and didn't necromancers from H6/H7 adopted their style from the living wizards too? (even tough it's barely shown in game). Also if we take a closer look, the H6/H7 style is actually made from combined Nerubian/Old-undead architecture and Icecrown/New-Undead architecture (the spikes, it is even more predominant in h5)
But wait! There are also some instances where they just ripped off buildings, not "inspired". Just look at the picture above: three levels ziggurat, spiky things at the corners and even the floating crystal, almost the same dark-green hue. At least they ran out of purple at the units, otherwise they would have had the same color If at this point you still believe in coincidences you will say: "But they got inspiration from the same historical source, they replicated an actual landmark ('cause a flying is totally legit and historically accurate)". But just look at the picture below, there you will see a Wow/Warcraft ziggurat, h6 ziggurat-fort and an actual ziggurat from Mesopotamia (Ur ziggurat, also its reconstruction). So the ziggurat has multiple stairs, a less-common pyramidal shape, 3 levels, the unusual part is that second level is actually lower than the stairs. Then we got our ziggurats here, they have a tower structure, a conical shape and finish in a "crown" of spikes
I SEE DEAD SPIDERS
The main (and only ) theme of the Ashan Necropolis is the Spider Cult, they worship the death spider aspect of Asha, this is the religion of the necromancers, which controls every aspect of the society in ways that the medieval church would envy. H5 was more subtle, but since H6 practically everything must reflect the spider theme, from the coat of arms, flags, weapons, armors, helms, shields to civilian clothes, tattoos on worshipers' faces, graffiti, even the city itself has spider legs. Of course there are also spider units and half-spiders, hmm... doesn't that ring a bell? Necron robo spiders..., yeah that also, but doesn't sound like Warcraft? Nerubians and spiders, while it's true that nerubians were conquered by the scourge and then raised their corpses like any self-respecting necromancers would do, but different lore is a cheap argument in this situation, mixing undead + spiders + sumerian/egyptian architecture into one faction then saying that the lore makes them different is like stealing your neighbor car, not bothering to change its number plate or color (maybe it's even green, who knows) then telling him that you won it at a pillow fighting contest in the Himalayan Mountains hold by thousand year old shaolin monks who all look like Sean Connery because of an ancient curse, it's just plain ridiculous. Both Warcraft and Ashan have semi-humanoid spiders, which are some-kind of spider centaur, Warcraft ones are more spidery in appearance as they only got the human posture and opposable arms on a spider body, while the Ashan's namatru got a lady on a spider body, but the idea is still the same (maybe they thought about putting a spider head on a woman's body, but it was a huge turn off for Erwan). There is also one very important undead citadel in WoW, Naxxramas, (it's actually a flying mobile fortress which they used as a base of operation to conquer an important human kingdom and elf kingdom), it is split in four quarters which represent the 4 major groups of undead army: Military Quarter, intelligent undead, Death Knights, Construct Quarter, things made out of lots of corpses sewed together, Plague Quarter, full of pestilent zombies, fungal creatures, maggots and Ebola-carrying disease-spreading bats and Arachnid Quarter, which didn't contained ticks or scorpions, but only spiders and spider centaurs - nerubians (and 2-3 scarab looking things which supposedly fall under the spider/nerubian category). Given the cartoony look and rendering style of the H7 spiders, they could easily blend into the Arachnid Quarter and no one would spot a difference. Also the starting pet for playable undead hunters in WoW is a spider, they also got a spider-filled cavern in their starting zone, coincidence? I think not!
Another thing, maybe it's a little far-fetched, but when things starts to pile up it's starting to make sense (and it becomes ridiculous). Ashan necromancers worship the spider queen, this is well defined in their society, relating things to the spider queen has become a part of the daily life. So the good playable undead in WoW are led by Sylvanas, the banshee queen, who escaped from the control of the Lich King, freed a part of the undead and gave them free will. Can we also make a parallel between the fact that also the spider queen freed from the cycle of life and so on? We got two dark queens there, you may say that the spider queen is a common trope and is backed by the fact that there is sexual dimorphism between male and female spiders, but guess what, sexual dimorphism works the other way around too ( males bigger and got more potent venom than the females). You may also say it's because of the social hierarchy, but only 23 species of spiders are colonial, and all of them are commies, they got no queens nor kings (they neither run a unique party), some of them got females with a functional reproductive system and females without it, but no queens or matriarch like ants or bees. There are ant-mimicking spiders, but they aren't colonial and look like this to fool ants then eat them, also in ant-mimicking species the males got dramatically bigger cheleicerae (id est: fangs). So the spider queen trope is something of Jeremiah_Emo's domain ( or the fact that the black widow female has a more potent venom than the males and this thing has been exploited by the urban culture more than the Texan oil fields, yet again these are solitary species and there also a lot of species with potent venom where the genders are equal or the males got bigger size and/or better venom).
CARBON COPIES
Ah, the Ashan Necropolis, from afar it looks like they try too hard make an original line-up, even if this means using 90% of the online community hates them soooooo much. Are they trying that much to be original? Vampires don't turn into bats anymore and they age backwards (eventually becoming Embryo vampires), liches are un-evolved vampires now which continue to age, but not rot. Also they must be alive in order to take the spider venom and become liches and then vampires, so they aren't exactly undead, they are more like users of the elixir of immortality(liches) and elixir of youth (vampires). Well, a big part of the fanbase hates them and you know the rage when they re-used these models the 3rd time... "3 times?" you gonna say, yes 3 times: once in wow, then in h6, then in h7. Let's start with Vampires , they are pretty much a carbon copy of Arthas: they both got pale skin (maybe it's because they are undead, and you know Pallor Mortis, but also Livor Mortis gives them a redish-hue due to blood not circulating and sinking into the blood vessels), long white hair, glowing eyes (at least the color is different), similar armor, both carry a long-sword which also has a similar guard, also they got a cape which is pretty much the same color. Maybe both Arthas and H7 vampires got the same hairdresser, they shop from the same place, they use the same skin products, they use contact lenses with led lights (tough that is pretty annoying) or maybe they do all of these things in order to copy Arthas. Also notice that the H6 vampire has a very similar helm to Lich King's one (Helm of Damnation), they even got a similar central rhomboidal spike, the difference is that Arthas' spikes are straight because he's straight, while the h6 vampire is... *ahem*. The H6 vampire upgrade pauldrons also got spikes, like Arthas' pauldrons, only that they remind of a sickle. Now it all makes sense, the basic vampire is Arthas and the upgrade is Lich King . Now, the public enemy #1, the Lich (he doesn't deserve that name), he looks like a meth-head, like Uncle Fester and also like a playable WoW undead, the resemblance is astonishing, even the facial expression is identical to the most face choices which the WoW undead can offer. Well, the WoW undead has visible arm bones, leg bones and ribs, but don't worry our friend Uncle Fester is actually a Chinese WoW undead, the Chinese models don't got bones showing as the Chinese publisher refused to put WoW on the market because corpses dishonor the memory of the ancestor or something like that (which is utter beautiful snow used as an excuse to stop a western company from monopolizing the Chinese market, which didn't work out as they put some skin on every corpse, including in an expansion were 95% of the enemies are undead). So it's not a Lich, but just a Chinese WoW Undead Mage.
Speaking about undead, in WoW they use Saronite, a resistant substance which is in fact the frozen/crystallized blood of an Old God (old gods are basically Lovercraftian things which ruled the planet before the Titans came), Yogg-Saron. Well, who else uses the crystallized blood of a god as rough material, which happens to have the SAME color as saronite? Yup, dragon blood crystals. Things start to pile up, things start to pile up.
BY YOUR POWER COMBINED I AM CAPTAIN DRAGON
We all know that Ashan is ruled by a pantheon of multicolored dragons who govern over a specific element, they also happen to get their color according to the thing they rule, so you don't forget what everyone does, kinda like colored candies, so you know which flavor they are and to appeal to kids, I guess. So let's up dragons as gods for our fictional world and it will be original - someone at Ubisoft. Think again Ubisoft employee who said that, because something pretty similar is in the Warcraft: The dragon aspects. After the titans got bored of messing around with Azeroth (the Warcraft's main planet), they decided to put dragons in order to watch over the world and each of them had one element to govern over elements: life, nature/emerald dream (the emerald dream is like the windows back-up, but y'a know, for the titans), time, magic and earth, also they got dragon associations known as dragonflights which are made from lesser dragons of the same type as the aspects. You are going to say "But it's different, Ashan dragons govern over different elements and they helped Asha". But let's see it like this the shapers of the world (titans/Asha) put dragons whose colors corresponds to their domain of rule to govern a specific element and they got lesser dragons under their command (dragonflights/recruitable dragons). Also the dragon aspects help the Titan's cause too because they well, watch over the world? Let me remind you the story with the pillow fighting contest from the Himalayan, but this time involves dragons, mother-hugging dragons (another fetish of someone from Ubisoft, (s)he may be the same person with the spider fetish, your intuition won't betray you )
MOUNTAIN DEW: ORCS AND DEMON BLOOD
Okay, you know the orcs from Tolkien's books or from the movies based on his books (because you are too damn lazy to read three books that are as thick as the Bible). Orcs are omnipresent in modern fantasy, especially in high-fantasy, orcs along with elves seem to be Viagra for most game developers and their audience. They may be sallow as Tolkien described them or green as their are most known by the public, but they are always the same, a distinct race of savage and warmongering creatures. So, since you read the books saw LoTR, you may think that Ashan version of orcs as humans with demon blood original... you see the part with the demon blood is totally from Warcraft. You may think that Warcraft orcs are green, they are not, normal orcs are brown/sallow (I'm not gonna discuss the color similarities because they both ripped off Tolkien), green orcs are orcs who where exposed to Fel energy( demonic energy made by the dudes in the Burning Legion), and red orcs are orcs who consumed Demon Blood. In warcraft universe, orcs come from the planet Draenor (again sf space stuff ripped from M&M), orcs aren't technologically advanced, but they live peacefully being brown skinned orcs lead by an orc dude named Grom Hellscream (his name denotes he's not from the flower-picker clan), then the burning legion comes up and some orc dude, Gul'dan starts to be buddy with the demons and tells the other orcs: "hey let's drink demon blood to become stronger and we will totally not become demons' attack dogs", so then they call the orcs and a demon dude Mannoroth and throw a party with demon blood, then they slaughter the population of goat-people refugees that share the planet with them. Now you will say "Well, at least the fact that Ashan orcs which were made from demons pushed them back to Sheogh and saved Ashan." Don't be so fast, I haven't finished the story: There comes some other orc dude Thrall (which was raised by humans and became the leader of the orcs, which is somehow similar to the story of Sandor, but he was a human prince, because Ubisoft hates when anyone takes Haven's spotlight, also the name of Kraal is very similar to Thrall), he led the uncorrupted orcs and wanted to show the world that "not all orcs are total brutes and racism is bad" takes Grom to detoxification and tells him the truth that demons are using them. Then Grom, helped by Thrall, sacrifices himself to kill Mannoroth. So, both stories can be resumed like: "orcs high on demon blood save the day by defeating demons, slavery is involved". Yeah, you can say that on Ashan orcs are half human and that they didn't drink the blood, they got it injected, but keywords matter and that reminds me of a story with a pillow fighting contest in the Himalayan that now also involves orcs and demon blood.
In conclusion, the arguments above give me the right to spam the forum with this image:
Nice comparison. When is the second part coming?
____________
"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
Nicely done, thread looks gorgeous and it deserves a QP, at least for effort if for nothing else. ____________
Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
Oh, Lizard, Lizard... I guess that you badly wanted to "impose" links between WoW and Heroes so much that you made some obvious mistakes. I'm not gonna to try and persuade you, it's pointless, I just can't help but point to you (and hopefully some others) that negative feelings certainly can cloud people’s judgment I don't care whether you love or hate Ubi, whether you made this post out of fun or bile, and I won't engage in that kind of conversation (I'm not interested in that, don’t even try to "assign colors" again) but I myself can't refuse to pinpoint those (numerous) mistakes
So, here we go.
1) Do you even know that Green Dead are a mainstream in video games now? LotR War in the North had green undead, Disciples III had green and spiderish Necro, even Dark Souls II had green Undead city (and even a Dragon spewing toxic green poison!), but I dare you to say that DS ripped even a tiniest detail from WoW. Oh. Minas Morgul too.
2) I was laughing hard from the Architecture paragraph. It's sooo far-fetched. Both WoW (judging from your post) and Ubi chose Egyptian style for Necro. You know, it’s hard to make something out from this style except pyramids, spikes, obelisks, etc. And Ubi, to tell the truth, tries to blend some classical undead elements into the Egyptian style. How well they’re doing is another question. Btw, the Egyptian style is fresher than “classical horror-Gothic” style Ah, just forgot - those "ziggurat crowns" are stripped from the LotR Barad-Dur and Black Gates. Or even the Tower of Orthank.
3) Spiders, really? Read p. 1. Spiders related to Undeath were in Tomb Rider, Disciples III, Dark Souls II (where they turned a small town into horrible freaks)…
4) OMG, Lizard, you too? Ghoul comparison is too far-fetched, just because model similarity. Vampires? Please, Arthas is a copy-paste of Alucard from Castlevania (or maybe even Dracula). Non-"blah" Vampires came long before WoW They don’t have monopoly on them. The real similarity is Alucard's white hair. but here's a link for you
Now, concerning the Liches. Actually, minus spider fetish, they look like mummies. And Necro are influenced by Egypt... so... they look as they should be. No logical error. They ripped from Egypt. Now, I too want more rotted Liches, but Sandro now looks quite unique even visually, so I might start to advocate for H6 Liches Saronite?
And also 3 more links:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurGhoulsAreCreepier
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurLichesAreDifferent
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurVampiresAreDifferent
5) You really tried hard with Dragons, but let me remind you, Asha is a Dragon too
6) And the biggest, almost epic failure is coming... Lizard, when you mentioned Tolkien, I was like "finally, you will say that both M&M and WoW ripped from him". You did. But then, just to claim another "similarity", you totally twisted the whole point. Tolkien’s Orcs a race created through experiments. Ashan's Orcs are created from experiments. See? Btw, what I call your epic fail is a line "and red orcs are orcs who consumed Demon Blood" - they were orcs when they consumed this blood lol
7) "give me the right to spam the forum"... What? From what moment in time someone got the right to spam the forum? I guess that you think too highly of yourself, sir
And some other links which might give some forum members food for thought:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_discovery
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpidersAreScary
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ObservationOnOriginality?from=Main.TwainsObservationOnOriginality
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrystalDragonJesus
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not taking any sides (although surely someone here will call me Ubi-lover), finding mistakes and "plotholes" in such gorgeous theories is my hobby, brain exercise. Looking forward for part II, hope it will be harder to crack And don't take things personally, please, I meant no offence.
oh lizzard your a true fan , i cant believe how some of you guys seem to still carry on with such dissapointing news coming by. i mean look at your post, so detailed to tell how warcrafty heroes is. personally i cant find any reason spend my time(who cares what we say anyway?) to create such a post.. but i respect you with this. expecting more to come now
LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
posted February 07, 2015 10:44 AM
I just made the post at 2 in the morning because I couldn't sleep And I intended to make it humorous (did I succeed?)
it's funny because you say I missed the point, but you missed the point too, but we can do this way until our eyes bleed
Sandro400 said:
So, here we go.
1) Do you even know that Green Dead are a mainstream in video games now? LotR War in the North had green undead, Disciples III had green and spiderish Necro, even Dark Souls II had green Undead city (and even a Dragon spewing toxic green poison!), but I dare you to say that DS ripped even a tiniest detail from WoW. Oh. Minas Morgul too.
I agree with you that more games/movies used green undeads, but it's more of a ghostly green, a bluish-green, not toxic green. And what I'm trying to say is that the green "thing" (plague/venom) is a major motif of the undead, venom spider is very important for the undead in Ashan and blight/plague is very important for the undead in WoW, unlike other games/movies where they put that (bluish!) green just for design.
Sandro400 said:
2) I was laughing hard from the Architecture paragraph. It's sooo far-fetched. Both WoW (judging from your post) and Ubi chose Egyptian style for Necro. You know, it’s hard to make something out from this style except pyramids, spikes, obelisks, etc. And Ubi, to tell the truth, tries to blend some classical undead elements into the Egyptian style. How well they’re doing is another question. Btw, the Egyptian style is fresher than “classical horror-Gothic” style Ah, just forgot - those "ziggurat crowns" are stripped from the LotR Barad-Dur and Black Gates. Or even the Tower of Orthank.
yep, the buildings in the icecrown are copied from LoTR, yep, the Egyptian theme was used for undead, but the Sumerian theme which is predominant here? Warcraft and Ashan undead arhitecture has less do to with Egyptians and more with Sumerians (and also mesoamericans). So I guess you didn't read it, because I said that they combined the sumerian-mesoamerican style with the spiky style, which is ridiculous. Just look at this again, I don't remember seeing flying crystals neither in LotR nor in Sumerian/Egyptian architecture:
Sandro400 said:
3) Spiders, really? Read p. 1. Spiders related to Undeath were in Tomb Rider, Disciples III, Dark Souls II (where they turned a small town into horrible freaks)…
But do spiders in disciples or dark souls are combined with undead with Sumerian architecture and green goo everywhere? Do they also got a race of sapient half-spiders? I would say nothing if there were just spiders, but it's getting ridiculous with so many common elements, also do the spider play a major role in the undead ranks in these games/movies? I don't think so.
Sandro400 said:
4) OMG, Lizard, you too? Ghoul comparison is too far-fetched, just because model similarity. Vampires? Please, Arthas is a copy-paste of Alucard from Castlevania (or maybe even Dracula). Non-"blah" Vampires came long before WoW They don’t have monopoly on them. The real similarity is Alucard's white hair. but here's a link for you
Now, concerning the Liches. Actually, minus spider fetish, they look like mummies. And Necro are influenced by Egypt... so... they look as they should be. No logical error. They ripped from Egypt. Now, I too want more rotted Liches, but Sandro now looks quite unique even visually, so I might start to advocate for H6 Liches Saronite?
I wasn't comparing the ghoul, I was comparing the spikes, both like to mount spikes everywhere Also the comparison with Arthas goes far beyond the eternal-young non-blah vampire which doesn't turn into a bat, it's about that they are exact carbon copies. Alucard is dressed like a noble, arthas and vamps are dressed in battle armor, they use a similar long-sword, they also got a cape of the same color, the same facial expression, glowing eyes. It's more than just the trope, is the freaking model itself. Also the lich model is too similar to the wow undead model, it's not the fact that the lich isn't rotten or white-skinned or bald, it's the fact that the model style is extremely similar.
Sandro400 said:
5) You really tried hard with Dragons, but let me remind you, Asha is a Dragon too
that doesn't matter, it's the creator+dragons+elements, Asha can be the flying spaghetti monster too, it will still be the same thing
Sandro400 said:
6) And the biggest, almost epic failure is coming... Lizard, when you mentioned Tolkien, I was like "finally, you will say that both M&M and WoW ripped from him". You did. But then, just to claim another "similarity", you totally twisted the whole point. Tolkien’s Orcs a race created through experiments. Ashan's Orcs are created from experiments. See? Btw, what I call your epic fail is a line "and red orcs are orcs who consumed Demon Blood" - they were orcs when they consumed this blood lol
I was talking about linking the orcs with demon blood, not the fact that orcs were created through experiment.
Also what's wrong with the sentence: "and red orcs are orcs who consumed Demon Blood". I'm not a native speaker, but I'm sure it's correct, for example "blue people are people that consumed (in excess) silver-based pills". They were also people(orcs) before, but now they are blue(red) because they consumed silver-based pills(demon blood)
Sandro400 said:
7) "give me the right to spam the forum"... What? From what moment in time someone got the right to spam the forum? I guess that you think too highly of yourself, sir
it was just to prove a point
GenyaArikado said:The WoW comparisons just show your lack of knowledgement about the Warcraft franchise
There are so many blatant similarities that you'd have to be blind not to notice. Good job LW.
Sandro400 said:Disciples III had green and spiderish Necro
Except not that green and not that spiderish. There is as much green as there is red and blue on the creature models. Not to mention that the main colors are actually grey and black. The only time green is seen more is when some of them perform attacks or when you cast some spells, but apart from that it's pretty balanced. And there is a spider on the Undead banner and the Support building has a spider architecture, nothing more than that. The spider itself is not undead and not part of the undead line-up.
____________ Guide to a Great Heroes Game The Young Traveler
LizardWarrior said:I just made the post at 2 in the morning because I couldn't sleep And I intended to make it humorous (did I succeed?)
it's funny because you say I missed the point, but you missed the point too, but we can do this way until our eyes bleed
Yes, it was quite a funny read, though I think you do understand that such humor will only strengthen someone's hate You can just as well compare any other 2 games and you will find similarities. I hope you opened the links I gave to you.
Ofc mate, I too can be mistaken! It would be presumptous of me to say that my point of view is the right one. That's why discussions exist.
LizardWarrior said:
I agree with you that more games/movies used green undeads, but it's more of a ghostly green, a bluish-green, not toxic green. And what I'm trying to say is that the green "thing" (plague/venom) is a major motif of the undead, venom spider is very important for the undead in Ashan and blight/plague is very important for the undead in WoW, unlike other games/movies where they put that (bluish!) green just for design.
Em, no, it's toxic green indeed in all of the games I listed. You can see the screenshots for yourself - only Minas Morgul used ghostly green, though it's still very close to tosic green. A colorued "thing" is a great motif for undead in... Tomb rider (one of the games used blue liquid), Dis (Mortis's plague, which is toxic green) and others. What I'm trying to say that WoW doesn't have "unique rights" on those things. Bluish green hase some presence in Ashan too, you know.
LizardWarrior said:
yep, the buildings in the icecrown are copied from LoTR, yep, the Egyptian theme was used for undead, but the Sumerian theme which is predominant here? Warcraft and Ashan undead arhitecture has less do to with Egyptians and more with Sumerians (and also mesoamericans). So I guess you didn't read it, because I said that they combined the sumerian-mesoamerican style with the spiky style, which is ridiculous. Just look at this again, I don't remember seeing flying crystals neither in LotR nor in Sumerian/Egyptian architecture:
Okay, a mix of Egypt and Sumerian, I though you'll understand that I mean no pure Egypt. Yes, they combined it. And what from that? Ofc if they choose this style their buildnings will be similar. It's plain simple. Mind you, mesoamerican (I guess it's Aztec-ish style?) and Egyprtian style have a lot in common, combining them is a natural choice. And ofc the result will be similar. Plain and simple. Like, when you're creating something while inspired by Greece your work ofc will be similar to those who have chosen the same path.
Btw, you do notice that on one image we have a flying crystal, while on the other - a flying little pyramid, don't you?
LizardWarrior said:
But do spiders in disciples or dark souls are combined with undead with Sumerian architecture and green goo everywhere? Do they also got a race of sapient half-spiders? I would say nothing if there were just spiders, but it's getting ridiculous with so many common elements, also do the spider play a major role in the undead ranks in these games/movies? I don't think so.
Green goo - yes, though yeah, H6 overdid it with color coding, they seem to understand it and make less green. Undead sumerian city with toxic green almost everywhere was in DSII, with insects instead of spiders. Mesoamerican pyramid with scary white spiders was in TR series. You know, sentient half-spiders were in DSI. And, to be honest, you don't need to be extra imaginative to picture a half-human half-spider thingy. Just as well as imagining half-human and half-snake etc. You see common elements because you want to see them - without them your theory won't work It's kinda psychological. If I wanted, I could as well compare Heroes to Pokemons. Though I'll give you that - you're nos some whining guy crying "they ripped from X", you're smart and can prove your points.
LizardWarrior said:
I wasn't comparing the ghoul, I was comparing the spikes, both like to mount spikes everywhere Also the comparison with Arthas goes far beyond the eternal-young non-blah vampire which doesn't turn into a bat, it's about that they are exact carbon copies. Alucard is dressed like a noble, arthas and vamps are dressed in battle armor, they use a similar long-sword, they also got a cape of the same color, the same facial expression, glowing eyes. It's more than just the trope, is the freaking model itself. Also the lich model is too similar to the wow undead model, it's not the fact that the lich isn't rotten or white-skinned or bald, it's the fact that the model style is extremely similar.
Spikes and Undead... again, natural choice - at least for me. Tell me, how much brainpower does it take to dress Alucard in battle armor? Vampire-knights also are popular now, they gained popularity after Otherworld series (I believe that's how it's called in English). Alucard too used a longs sword, even longer than Arthas and other vamps. Glowing eyes? Have I missed the WoW Lich model in your images? Haven't seen it. And I believe I gave a link about "if 2 things are similar, it doesn't mean one ripped from another", or I haven't?
LizardWarrior said:
that doesn't matter, it's the creator+dragons+elements, Asha can be the flying spaghetti monster too, it will still be the same thing
Em, nope. In WoW Dragons are guardians (am I right?) appointed by someone else. In Ashan, Dragons are the creators. Only the Void is more ancient that them. And the amount of Elements and aspects don't match
LizardWarrior said:
I was talking about linking the orcs with demon blood, not the fact that orcs were created through experiment.
Also what's wrong with the sentence: "and red orcs are orcs who consumed Demon Blood". I'm not a native speaker, but I'm sure it's correct, for example "blue people are people that consumed (in excess) silver-based pills". They were also people(orcs) before, but now they are blue(red) because they consumed silver-based pills(demon blood)
But you should have talk about the second fact first, then the Demon blood. If Ashan Orcs ripped from something, it's LotR. The "demon blood" keyword gives way to "unnatural experiment" keyword.
I'm not a native speaker myself, and there's no grammatical error. It's the way you compare things. I could have agree with you if in WoW Orcs were also created with demon blood. But they weren't. They were Orcs to begin with, they're not a created race as in Ashan (per my knowledge). Some of them became green, some - red. And I can give you many examples of demon blood uses to "create " or "empower" something. You know, fantasy and religion staples...
LizardWarrior said:
it was just to prove a point
Oh. Forgive me, I haven't known about your "conflict" with Genya. But still, don't spam the forum with this picture. We've seen it already
-----------------------------------
Stevie said:There are so many blatant similarities that you'd have to be blind not to notice. Good job LW.
Or be blinded by hate for example, to notice similarities in places where there're no similarities
Stevie said:
Except not that green and not that spiderish. There is as much green as there is red and blue on the creature models. Not to mention that the main colors are actually grey and black. The only time green is seen more is when some of them perform attacks or when you cast some spells, but apart from that it's pretty balanced. And there is a spider on the Undead banner and the Support building has a spider architecture, nothing more than that. The spider itself is not undead and not part of the undead line-up.
Not that green? Excuse me, they have more green than H7 Necro. Yes, Vampires are red, but Nosferatu is, like many here like to say, "copy-pasted" Arthas. Not that spiderish? Yes, there's no Spider Cult there. Buuut... the whole city was a giant spider-like labyrinth covered in cobwebs and screaming "toxic green, tosic green!" Specters have spider legs like Ashan Liches. And it had undead spider-tree in the lineup. Though, mind you, I myself am against Spiders. I don't know why you mention them, I and Lizard are talking about them in cultural way.
The whole thing with Spider Cult, like it or not, seems logical. They're fanatics, and fanatics tend to have their symbol everywhere. We had non-spider Necro in H5 and CoH, now we will have Spider Cult, then again in H6 (maybe) we will have non-spider Necro. Now, many people don't like Spider cult, but... we will get nevertheless in H7. A miracle must happen to change that.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
Well from the title i knew this thread would be about strawman building so of course i didnt bother giving your arguments a deep read, but superfically i can say that your post resumes to: using some of the same themes and applyimg them in a different way = rippoff.
I also assume that you want to return to the old universe composed of 80s/90s movies ripoffs.
GenyaArikado said:Well from the title i knew this thread would be about strawman building so of course i didnt bother giving your arguments a deep read, but superfically i can say that your post resumes to: using some of the same themes and applyimg them in a different way = rippoff.
I also assume that you want to return to the old universe composed of 80s/90s movies ripoffs.
At least his post is fun and he's trying to make a point. Yours is none of these.
@GenyaArikado
1) Please, do provide your arguments. Let us see your point of view. Share your expertise in this area.
2) "using some of the same themes and applyimg them in a differentsame way". I corrected it for you. Check the pictures again please. If you cannot see that they are identical, you really need glasses...
Actually, after reading this gread post (LW deserves QP) I see that I missed some of the resemblance between WoW and Spideropolis ____________
"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
Stevie said:There are so many blatant similarities that you'd have to be blind not to notice. Good job LW.
Or be blinded by hate for example, to notice similarities in places where there're no similarities
Stevie said:
Except not that green and not that spiderish. There is as much green as there is red and blue on the creature models. Not to mention that the main colors are actually grey and black. The only time green is seen more is when some of them perform attacks or when you cast some spells, but apart from that it's pretty balanced. And there is a spider on the Undead banner and the Support building has a spider architecture, nothing more than that. The spider itself is not undead and not part of the undead line-up.
Not that green? Excuse me, they have more green than H7 Necro. Yes, Vampires are red, but Nosferatu is, like many here like to say, "copy-pasted" Arthas. Not that spiderish? Yes, there's no Spider Cult there. Buuut... the whole city was a giant spider-like labyrinth covered in cobwebs and screaming "toxic green, tosic green!" Specters have spider legs like Ashan Liches. And it had undead spider-tree in the lineup. Though, mind you, I myself am against Spiders. I don't know why you mention them, I and Lizard are talking about them in cultural way.
The whole thing with Spider Cult, like it or not, seems logical. They're fanatics, and fanatics tend to have their symbol everywhere. We had non-spider Necro in H5 and CoH, now we will have Spider Cult, then again in H6 (maybe) we will have non-spider Necro. Now, many people don't like Spider cult, but... we will get nevertheless in H7. A miracle must happen to change that.
Or be blinded by fanboyism and unwillingness to admit the obvious. It can work that way too.
And here's the "Omg so much toxic green, much more than in Heroes 7" Undead capital from Disciples 3. And watch how only the Support building has anything spider related - all the rest is just a labyrinth:
And you mean to say this:
looks like Arthas? LMAO.
Now the creatures:
Can you see all that green?? Omg it's blinding me! So many neon colors everywhere.
Dude. You seriously CANNOT compare Heroes to Disciples and claim it's as similar as Heroes to WoW. Not in a million years. There's a giant difference between Heroes and Disciples.
____________ Guide to a Great Heroes Game The Young Traveler
GenyaArikado said:Well from the title i knew this thread would be about strawman building so of course i didnt bother giving your arguments a deep read, but superfically i can say that your post resumes to: using some of the same themes and applyimg them in a different way = rippoff.
I also assume that you want to return to the old universe composed of 80s/90s movies ripoffs.
Oh, here's Jerry, I guess you copied Jeramiah_Emo too. I see that you didn't bother to read it all, then why did you bothered to post at all? So superficially deeply I can say that your post resumes to: fanboyism. You don't even bother to bring arguments, maybe that's because you don't have any?
Also, yeah, it's more original to copy from movies that are a DIFFERENT industry than to copy games from the SAME industry. Ofc copying is never original, but the conversion IS.
@Sandro:
Quote:Yes, it was quite a funny read, though I think you do understand that such humor will only strengthen someone's hate You can just as well compare any other 2 games and you will find similarities. I hope you opened the links I gave to you.
Well, wouldn't a humorous approach release the tension and make the atmosphere easy-going? It's just a game after all
Yeah, I opened your links, but honestly they don't prove anything. Let's take multiple discovery one: it says "more or less simultaneously". Less simultaneously isn't something 15 years apart, when the first which "discovered" is a influential giant on the market, it doesn't cut it. Did I discovered, let's say something more recent, like 3d printing, when it's already a well-known fact that it was already massively used? Spiders are scary, well yes, some species are poisonous and their venom is potent enough to kill a human, but so do some species of jellyfishes, scorpions, frogs, snakes, sting rays, even the platypus could seriously harm a human with its venom. It has no connection with undead, and no more connection to death than many other species.
Quote:Okay, a mix of Egypt and Sumerian, I though you'll understand that I mean no pure Egypt. Yes, they combined it. And what from that? Ofc if they choose this style their buildnings will be similar. It's plain simple. Mind you, mesoamerican (I guess it's Aztec-ish style?) and Egyprtian style have a lot in common, combining them is a natural choice. And ofc the result will be similar. Plain and simple. Like, when you're creating something while inspired by Greece your work ofc will be similar to those who have chosen the same path.
Btw, you do notice that on one image we have a flying crystal, while on the other - a flying little pyramid, don't you?
If you are paying attention, you will see that they copy the same elements, yes, mesoamerican style is similar to the Egyptian style, but so is the Nubian one, and this one is more similar, even the early Hindu (tough it's more similar to the mesoamerican), so is the Hittite one. But no, they chose sumerian+egyptian+mesoamerican style then put spikes on the top which is exactly as the WarCraft one. Why not Phoenician and Egyptian? Or Hindu and Mesoamerican? Why not Egyptian and Greek/Roman (Ptolemaic Egyptian)? And why the spiky things on the top? They aren't neither from Gothic style and neither from Tolkien's works as they are fragmented, like a phalanges (the finger bones, not the spiders) or spider legs. There are too many "coincidences", also, don't worry, we can see flying obelisks and pyramidal structures in Warcraft too, putting them at the top of the same kind of structure is no coincidence.
Quote:Undead sumerian city with toxic green almost everywhere was in DSII
Besides a single green flame, there is no toxic green. Also sumerian influences are nowhere to be seen, only one building which reminds me more of Ptolemaic Egyptian or Abu Simbel. But that's just one building in a whole city. Also remember that both Ashan and Warcraft have the liquid "toxic green" or gaseous, while this is a flame (which is plasma )
Quote:You see common elements because you want to see them - without them your theory won't work
Actually this hurts your arguments more than mine.
For example, you try to compare DSII and singular elements from other games/movies to a major motif of the Warcraft/Ashan undead. I tried to search all these parallels you gave me, but without success, google just gave me random results.
Quote:
Spikes and Undead... again, natural choice - at least for me. Tell me, how much brainpower does it take to dress Alucard in battle armor? Vampire-knights also are popular now, they gained popularity after Otherworld series (I believe that's how it's called in English). Alucard too used a longs sword, even longer than Arthas and other vamps. Glowing eyes? Have I missed the WoW Lich model in your images? Haven't seen it. And I believe I gave a link about "if 2 things are similar, it doesn't mean one ripped from another", or I haven't?
I see you like tropes much, so Alucard is your "Dark Lord", like Dracula, Countess Bathory, a cruel artisocrat and so on, while Arthas and Ashan vampires are the "Death Knights", which aren't focused on the Victorian Era, but on Middle Ages. Also I was talking that similarities between the two models are too great, the lich too, you say that 2 ideas can be discovered simultaneously, yes they can, like the light bulb for example. What I want to say is that Warcraft was already a giant when Ashan was made, so it's like someone invents the lightbulb when a big part of the population already uses them.
Quote:Em, nope. In WoW Dragons are guardians (am I right?) appointed by someone else. In Ashan, Dragons are the creators. Only the Void is more ancient that them. And the amount of Elements and aspects don't match
I didn't say that there aren't differences, but that the main idea is the same. Also, don't the Ashan dragon gods protect their element (and worshipers) too?
Quote:But you should have talk about the second fact first, then the Demon blood. If Ashan Orcs ripped from something, it's LotR. The "demon blood" keyword gives way to "unnatural experiment" keyword.
The main thing was that there is a connection between orcs and demon blood. I know that there are differences, I even said it in the main post. Also "unnatural experiment" can also involve lots of other reagents than demon blood
Sleeping_Sun said:@GenyaArikado
1) Please, do provide your arguments. Let us see your point of view. Share your expertise in this area.
2) "using some of the same themes and applyimg them in a differentsame way". I corrected it for you. Check the pictures again please. If you cannot see that they are identical, you really need glasses...
1- I already did in the H7 thread. He obviously disagreed. I have trascended the typical forum user to get into cyclical arguments.
2- So according to you
Shapeshifting avatar of the darkside of a goddess = dead spiders and scarabs from a dead kingdom
Sacred venom used to turn people into the higher class of undead produced by said goddess avatars = liquid virus(?) used to make zombies at best.
Sylvanas = Mother Namtauru (wtf)
Floating purple zigurat which looks kinda like a purple rusted out oil plataform = the more accurate black stone one on which the entire city is mounted upon
The archnid quarter = all of WoW undead building = the H7 necromancer vibe
You also behold me to double standards. Lets pretend for a moment he is right and it actually looks like Warcraft, whats the point he is trying to make? How os it constructive?
Zenofex said:
GenyaArikado said:Well from the title i knew this thread would be about strawman building so of course i didnt bother giving your arguments a deep read, but superfically i can say that your post resumes to: using some of the same themes and applyimg them in a different way = rippoff.
I also assume that you want to return to the old universe composed of 80s/90s movies ripoffs.
At least his post is fun and he's trying to make a point. Yours is none of these.
I already explained my position to him in the main H7 thread. Why would i tell him the same again?
Quote:1- I already did in the H7 thread. He obviously disagreed. I have trascended the typical forum user to get into cyclical arguments.
2- So according to you
Avatar of the darkdeathside of a spider goddess = undead spiders and scarabs( there are only a few scarabs, also in warcraft they are part of the same species as the nerubians, so let's say that they are some kind of mimmicking spiders) from a dead kingdom
Sacred venom used to turn people into the higher class of undead produced by said goddess avatars = liquid virus(?) used to make zombies at best. Toxic green lethal substance that turns people into undead, which also is a major motif for the undead race
Sylvanas = Mother Namtauru (wtf) Banshee Queen= (Death) Spider Queen
they are both constantly mentioned in the daily life of their people and respected because they liberated them from a vicious fate (death and slavery)
Floating purple zigurat which looks kinda like a purple rusted out oil plataform = the more accurate black stone one on which the entire city is mounted upon The same architectural styles combined as the main style of a race of living dead
The archnid quarter = all of WoW undead building = the H7 necromancer vibe The spider motif which is intensely used in both games, putting of undead and spiders together
You also behold me to double standards. Lets pretend for a moment he is right and it actually looks like Warcraft, whats the point he is trying to make? How os it constructive? Besides it actually looks like warcraft, I redirect a category of comments that are made in the H7 discussion thread to a dedicated thread, also releasing "tension" by trying to add humor to a dilemma which makes some people rage
It was all written in the post, but as you see I have the calm to explain it every-time to people who too lazy to read the first post in the thread.
Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted February 07, 2015 05:50 PM
I'll just add to LW's post:
Quote:Sylvanas = Mother Namtauru
Forsaken are lost without Sylvanas (there is a section about this in Sylvanas' page I think on WoW wiki), and the Spider cult is lost without Mother Namtaru (Dying of MN = spiderpolis dead).
Quote:The archnid quarter = all of WoW undead building = the H7 necromancer vibe
Mainly yes. As I said in H7 thread, the Scourge adopted the architecture of Nerubians. So, yes, WoW undead = H7 Necropolis.
This thread is pages long: 1 
posted February 07, 2015 12:59 AM
), they tried to attenuate the impact by revealing both champion and elite tiers at once, it didn't work as intended tough. The spider theme was again omnipresent, on lich's back, robe, staff, vampire's armor, sword and so on. Recently they decided to put more gas on the burning mouth of hell, just because Ubi likes to see the world burn and showed a Necropolis screen deeply inspired from Sumerian and Spiderian culture, the "city" (if we can call that carnival a city, now it fits perfectly with the h6 circus theme 
) is a spider itself and looks like someone watched 
If at this point you still believe in coincidences you will say: "But they got inspiration from the same historical source, they replicated an actual landmark ('cause a flying is totally legit and historically accurate)". But just look at the picture below, there you will see a Wow/Warcraft ziggurat, h6 ziggurat-fort and an actual ziggurat from Mesopotamia (Ur ziggurat, also its reconstruction). So the ziggurat has multiple stairs, a less-common pyramidal shape, 3 levels, the unusual part is that second level is actually lower than the stairs. Then we got our ziggurats here, they have a tower structure, a conical shape and finish in a "crown" of spikes
. Now, the public enemy #1, 
When is the second part coming?
I don't care whether you love or hate Ubi, whether you made this post out of fun or bile, and I won't engage in that kind of conversation (I'm not interested in that, don’t even try to "assign colors" again) but I myself can't refuse to pinpoint those (numerous) mistakes 
