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| Thread: CoH impacting Heroes 7 |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted February 11, 2015 05:41 PM |
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CoH impacting Heroes 7
I can't help but notice some annoying(at least, to me) connections to Heroes 7 and Clash of heroes (CoH). Two games set in the same universe but completely different from each other,in terms of game play. I just do not understand why they take any inspiration from CoH when making the line ups. And yet, they don't bother to take any of the good things, in my opinion. Personally it just irks me when it looks like they take ideas from a handheld game and implement it in a Heroes game. Erwans words 'Actually my favorite might and magic game is Clash of Heroes', in a h3HD stream, just made me cautious.
I'll start with the faction with the largest connection to CoH, slyvan. I'll list the line ups below but basically you take out the bear and replace it with the dryad, remove unicorn for bladedancer, and that is fury. CoH was the first time the treant was ever a champion and the first time deer have been brought to the battlefield (as units). Sure they worked in this adorable little handheld game, but that doesn't mean they will fit in Heroes 7. 
Slyvan CoH line up: Slyvan Fury:
Core: Core:
Pixie Pixie
Bear Dryad
Hunter Hunter
Elite: Elite:
Druid Druid
Deer Deer
Unicorn Bladedancer
Champion: Champion:
Treant Treants
Emerald dragon Emerald dragon
Haven has relatively the same line up almost every time so its no surprise that these are similar. But why does the awesome name of landsknetch get upgraded to swordmaster...? Well because they had it in CoH! Its a silly name for a him, I think of Fire emblem when I hear swordmaster.
Academy has had the same line up for years! What is the one difference that CoH gave to academy to spice things up? They gave it a champion bird! Whoa cool, okay so what kind of crazy original idea do they have in store for academy in heroes 7? A champion bird!
Necropolis is the faction that should have had more copies from CoH. For those of you that did not play CoH, necropolis had basically armor-less vampires that flew and attacked with their claws. Why is this not incorporated into Heroes 7? These cool little ebon guards were core units, but we get spiders. The champions reaper + death knight = Grim rider. Okay, that ones fine.
So even though I voted inferno, perhaps it would have been best to leave them out. I'm sure we would have had a 'sorcerer' unit if they would have won the vote (probably h6 inferno magic hero as the model). This makes me more anxious for stronghold since they were not in CoH 
End note: I like most of what I see in Heroes 7 thus far. I'm going to be picking up the collectors edition whenever its released. I am just really particular about the details behind these games. I don't think this game is THAT heavily based on CoH, I just wanted to point out some similarities between the two titles that were bothering me. Of course the less they take from CoH, the more they will probably take from DoC. But at least the elves wouldn't have been affected.
Any thoughts? Am I just being paranoid? 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 11, 2015 07:14 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 19:15, 11 Feb 2015.
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Ubi has a team dedicated to keeping lore and faction consistency between games. From gameplay (earth magic builds up over time while air favours instant action), to theme (aschetic buddhist necros say hi), to fashion (overdecorated units with an abundance of religious symbols  ). So what you perceive as one game copying the other is actually a gradual process of Ashan's evolution.
In the case of H7, it has kept most of the H6 lineup due to limited budget.
Regarding H7 sylvan, there was a vote between three lineups so you can blame those who voted fury 
Landsknetch's original name was actually swordbearer so it's the unupgraded name that was improved. Obviously the unit was inspired by the good old crusader but that name was not used for one way or the other. So.. swordmaster.
I have something to share. When we were asked about ideas on the academy alternative champion, I was quick to suggest a magical bird. Academy has a thing for air magic, elegance and summoned creatures while the phoenix was a crucial part of their gameplay during H5. The djinn was already reserved for elite so next time maybe A spellcaster champion would be sweet.
I suggested ebon guards myself but apparently they were only.. robed human cultists. I was disappointed as in my eyes they were the walker equivalent of the H3 wights. Also hoped for revenants as heavily armoured undead creatures(so that vampires could get a redesign) and cursing mummies. Or anything but a spider really.. That didn't go as I hoped.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted February 11, 2015 09:15 PM |
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@Elvin
Thanks for responding to the new guy's lame thread
I'm just having difficulty realizing slyvan is pretty much a new faction. It is not the rampart I love, nor is it the sorceress faction or even the preserve, who's iconic units are unicorn, elf (not plural  ), and phoenix(minus rampart of course). Where as slyvans iconic units are like faries, elves, and treant. Oh well, can't win them all. Not with ubi.
Just to be clear though I do love academy, even if it is the same line up again, and again...The Arcane eagle is great addition. I do wish the elite tier would have benefited more from some of those DoC academy cards. There were some really cool ones.
I did not know the history behind ebon guards. I was actually looking forward to seeing them as a core but that wouldn't make any sense if they're human. I hope CoH can help resign the vampire though! This game has enough swords as it is...
P.S. nice avatar! I loved AC 1 and 2
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 11, 2015 09:54 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
I'm just having difficulty realizing slyvan is pretty much a new faction.
Not so new, spirit-wise, I find it pretty close to H5's Sylvan. That would explain partly Fury's nomination.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted February 11, 2015 10:07 PM |
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Galaad said:
The_Green_Drag said:
I'm just having difficulty realizing slyvan is pretty much a new faction.
Not so new, spirit-wise, I find it pretty close to H5's Sylvan. That would explain partly Fury's nomination.
Well yeah that is what I was trying to say.
The Slyvan faction == Ubisoft Rampart, Sorcercer == NWC
They're not the same (to me) so I just need to stop comparing the two.
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Greenlore
Known Hero
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posted February 12, 2015 01:26 PM |
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Its more that the line-ups simply have certain standard-creatures that will most likely always be in them.
Compare the academy-line-up with the one from H5(which is itself almost identical to the h3 line-up)
They are almost exactly the same,the only difference being that they added the magic bird and replaced the gremlins with the cabirs.
For sylvan its almost the same,most creatures are pretty much standard for sylvan,turning the treant into a champion was decided by vote,same goes for the deer(who also makes sense as a sylvan unit).
The_Green_Drag said:
Galaad said:
The_Green_Drag said:
I'm just having difficulty realizing slyvan is pretty much a new faction.
Not so new, spirit-wise, I find it pretty close to H5's Sylvan. That would explain partly Fury's nomination.
Well yeah that is what I was trying to say.
The Slyvan faction == Ubisoft Rampart, Sorcercer == NWC
They're not the same (to me) so I just need to stop comparing the two.
H5 was already the ashan sylvan and even though they have different names,they are basically the same(rampart had a different name in every game anyway),I mean even in H3 they were ruled by elves and have roughly the same line-up as they have in the ashan line-ups.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted February 12, 2015 07:05 PM |
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Greenlore said:
H5 was already the ashan sylvan and even though they have different names,they are basically the same(rampart had a different name in every game anyway),I mean even in H3 they were ruled by elves and have roughly the same line-up as they have in the ashan line-ups.
Maybe to you But for me it was a pretty big change around.
-dwarf was pretty much replaced by its opposite, an offensive and fragile bladedancer.
-Pegasus was super useful and very quick but got replaced with a shooter...this happens too much in too many factions.
-Treant, who I count on for defending was promoted  They were a super cheap unit to build and defend the castle easily. They were not cheap at all in h5.
-Unicorn demoted (and soon banished  ) which made them less important imo. They were not so strong.
I just hate this 'sit back and shoot' strategy that they're forcing on us. Need more fliers.
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Greenlore
Known Hero
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posted February 13, 2015 12:18 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
Greenlore said:
H5 was already the ashan sylvan and even though they have different names,they are basically the same(rampart had a different name in every game anyway),I mean even in H3 they were ruled by elves and have roughly the same line-up as they have in the ashan line-ups.
Maybe to you But for me it was a pretty big change around.
-dwarf was pretty much replaced by its opposite, an offensive and fragile bladedancer.
-Pegasus was super useful and very quick but got replaced with a shooter...this happens too much in too many factions.
-Treant, who I count on for defending was promoted They were a super cheap unit to build and defend the castle easily. They were not cheap at all in h5.
-Unicorn demoted (and soon banished ) which made them less important imo. They were not so strong.
I just hate this 'sit back and shoot' strategy that they're forcing on us. Need more fliers.
You act like Heroes 3 was the only heroes game to feature this faction.
Druids were already in the line-up during H1&H2,if anything the Pegasi replaced the druids and now they regained their rightful spot again.
A single unit getting one tier higher is also nothing unusual,its the same unit,just stronger than before.
And the dwarf stopped being part of their line-up already in H4.
Every faction goes through some changes in every game,aside from the lineups in H1 and H2,there are never 2 lineups between games that are exactly the same.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 13, 2015 12:35 PM |
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With the exception of academy :-P
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Greenlore
Known Hero
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posted February 13, 2015 05:47 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
With the exception of academy :-P
Hey even they change to some extent.
It might be just small changes like "switch that multiarmed naga chick against a multi-armed rakshasa" or "switch that repairing gremlin against a repairing Cabir",but it is something
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted February 13, 2015 09:16 PM |
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You said they were relatively the same, I was just pointing out some major changes.
Greenlore said:
Every faction goes through some changes in every game,aside from the lineups in H1 and H2,there are never 2 lineups between games that are exactly the same.
I know, and I'm okay with change when its from a creative approach. I do not see making CoH line up creative. There was no slyvan in h6 which which was weird so its return should have meant a redesign of the old line up, like academy got (and a replacement tier1). With a phoenix as a alt choice champion, creative changes like a walking green dragon would be more welcome.
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Greenlore
Known Hero
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posted February 13, 2015 10:11 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
You said they were relatively the same, I was just pointing out some major changes.
Greenlore said:
Every faction goes through some changes in every game,aside from the lineups in H1 and H2,there are never 2 lineups between games that are exactly the same.
I know, and I'm okay with change when its from a creative approach. I do not see making CoH line up creative. There was no slyvan in h6 which which was weird so its return should have meant a redesign of the old line up, like academy got (and a replacement tier1). With a phoenix as a alt choice champion, creative changes like a walking green dragon would be more welcome.
you mean more creative changes like a walking green dragon right?
Because that is exactly what we're getting.
And what about stuff like the dryad?Or the blade dancer?They are not in the CoH line-up(ok they are part of H5,but that one didn't have deers and blade dancer was tier-2)
And pixie seems to be vastly different to the way it was in CoH and H5
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted February 13, 2015 11:19 PM |
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Greenlore said:
you mean more creative changes like a walking green dragon right?
Because that is exactly what we're getting.
And what about stuff like the dryad?Or the blade dancer?They are not in the CoH line-up(ok they are part of H5,but that one didn't have deers and blade dancer was tier-2)
And pixie seems to be vastly different to the way it was in CoH and H5
Wingless green dragon is not a good change if the other champion is a treant.
Pixie + Dryad is just an overkill with the faries. A hippogriff or a saytr would have been a great replacement for the pixie (or even the snake). When the important classic creatures such as the phoenix and unicorn get dropped, I just think sometihng like the pixie doesn't deserve to stick around.
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Greenlore
Known Hero
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posted February 14, 2015 10:41 PM |
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pixie and dryad are pretty different though.
The pixie is closer to a classical fairy,while the dryad is more like the H5-thing(maybe not even flying?)
I agree that a completely new creature would have been cool though,I think the blade dancers are kinda unnecessary(same thing with the emerald knights,2 elves are enough) and while the deer was already in CoH,it wasn't in any heroes games and is a nice change(the other option would have been unicorn which is very similar)
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted February 15, 2015 01:31 AM |
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Greenlore said:
pixie and dryad are pretty different though
Yeah hopefully they will be. What concerns me is that in h5 the dryad was an upgrade to the pixie. Since Ubisoft used them like this in the past, they shouldn't have been split into two separate units. One of them is going to have to function differently this time or they will be too similar. And if they consider the dryad an upgrade to a fairy, it might end up looking like one
About the deer, yes it is the only new unit sadly. The fact that it is the only new unit is disappointing and it being something as simple as a forest critter made to look 'magical' makes sylvans return a lot less exciting for me. At least the root snake was going to bring entangling ability to a core unit, which would have been really cool. Even if it was another dumb sounding unit.
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Greenlore
Known Hero
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posted February 15, 2015 04:33 PM |
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But root snake looks like its just a random animal mixed with something else,so I am glad that they aren't in it.And while it would have been interesting to have the root-ability among core units,the treant would have been in the game anyway.
And given the pictures that were more or less a sneak peak at the creatures dryads will look(and probably work) nothing like pixies,with the dryad being more of a supporter,while the pixie is a damage dealer.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted February 15, 2015 07:44 PM |
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I wish more thought was put into slyvan's new units. Sun deer, Root snake... two things you find in the woods with a noun in front of its name. One is made of 'sun energy'(I guess?) and the other, of tree roots! How very clever
The emerald knight was the only new unit I would have actually looked forward to.
About the pixie and dryad, I needed a refresher on what they looked like  New pixie design is much better. Dryad is...decent, but at least it doesn't look like the pixie.
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Greenlore
Known Hero
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posted February 16, 2015 12:23 AM |
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Overall I think emerald knight and blade dancer were one elf too much in any case.
Sure emerald knight was new and all,but from what we've got they were pretty much the wood-elven version of the blood fury from H5 and overall just another elf.
While I am ok with the whole "a faction for every race"-thing,I think it should be handled carefully.
If a lineup multiple units of the same race,then these units should more or less have different "classes" that would be worth including on their own.
For example the hunter is a bow user and no other faction has one of those(at least no known one),the druid is...well a druid,but the emerald knight and blade dancer are to me just another elven unit(this time a melee one)
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted February 16, 2015 01:23 AM |
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I don't like the number of elves either. They should make up 1-2 units and the heroes, that is enough. I hope stronghold has more beasts than slyvan does. An all Orc faction is just as bad.
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moonshade
Known Hero
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posted February 16, 2015 09:56 AM |
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My Sylvan
I also agree that except for Haven and Necropolis/Inferno, other factions should have no more than max of 2 units of a single race (the only allowed exception are cavalry/beast-riders). That's how I'd do Sylvan:
Core:
Pixie
Rootsnake OR Lynx OR Satyr
Avenger (Elves being able to switch a ranged Hunter form and melee Bladedancer form- idea taken from the Battle for Middle Earth games)
Elite:
Unicorn
Druid
Mantis
Champion:
Green Dragon
Treant
Much better, no? Similarly, Stronghold should look like this:
Core
Crusher
Gnoll Skirmisher
(melee, camel-based) Centaur
Elite
Oliphaunt Rider
Wyvern
Ogre (mage)
Champion
Cyclops
Behemoth
Goblins should be a Strongold-related neutral unit.
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