Avonu said:

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lol-a-lot said:

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if Tarnum and Erathia are 1000 years old, it means Jarg was fighting Bracaduun and the Wizard Kings before the Silence, all taking place around the time of the Colonial Government and the Forges, but I didn't see or hear anything about no Government or Forges in that story, not even ruins exist lol

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You really need to learn a math.
1200 - 1000 = 200 after Silence. Jarg conquered Bracaduun some time before Tarnum birth but mind you, one generation is about 25-30 years and it's easy to forget about past in 1-2 generations, especially when your opressors are doing everything to erase that past (shooting bards in back ).

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AnkVaati said:

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Is there any detailed source material or fanfiction regarding what the Nighon and/or Enroth Warlock societies were like? I'm especially interested in stuff regarding their cultural customs, race relations, religion etc.

Also, I'd like to know what (if any) societies existed on the Nighon surface, and what their relations to the overlords below was like?

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Avirosb said:

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Quick aside, but I really like the word 'Nighon'

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Sandro400 said:

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It's time to grab popcorn guys and enjoy this duel.

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foxxxer said:

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"The History of Erathia is long indeed, and like the Ironfists of Enroth, the Gryphonhearts have been the ruling family since before the Silence."

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lol-a-lot said:

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you need to learn a timeline, Heroes 4 is around the late 1170s and early 1180s, not 1200 as you say, that would put Waerjak in his forties

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foxxxer said:

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"The History of Erathia is long indeed, and like the Ironfists of Enroth, the Gryphonhearts have been the ruling family since before the Silence."

Also according to the timeline Jarg and Tarnum were born before the Silence. Even Conquest of the Underworld from HC is placed before the Silence.

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Avonu said:

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So this text can't be fully trusted, especially when HC and HoMM4 say that Tarnum was 1000 years old in HoMM4 and was killed by Rion Gryphonheart, who becomes the first king of a new country Erathia.

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Avonu said:

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And how do you came to these dates if I may ask?

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copy-a-lot said:

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actually that's debatable, it doesn't exactly say the Ironfists ruled Enroth before the Silence, just that the Ironfists of Enroth have been the ruling family since before the Silence

the Ironfists may very well have been a ruling family before the Silence, just ruling their kingdom back on Varn, so it would be fully valid in the canon if you interpret it like that

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copy-a-lot said:

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for around when Heroes 4 is set, Lysander's campaign says he was 16 when he was knighted by Catherine in Erathia and 24 when the Reckoning happened, Catherine was in Erathia from 1165 to 71, so the possible timeframe for the Reckoning is therefore 1173 to 79
Lysander's campaign is set 4 years after the Reckoning so it's 1177 to 83
the other stories don't have a date but they are also not long after the Reckoning, so probably around the same timeframe or same decade at least

for Waerjak's age, Clash of the Dragons is after Catherine left but there are still Kreegans, so the only dates for it are 1171 or 72, Waerjak is a boy in this story but is old enough to hunt, so for the sake of argument say he is 13 years old, if his campaign is in 1200 then he would be in his 40s
he is supposed to be 23 in that campaign

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Avonu said:

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You forgot that all VARN lands were ruled by one king - and it was King Alamar, not king Ironfist.

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Avonu said:

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And now post a link from where you copied this all and added only your lols.

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Sandro400 said:

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Kiryu133 said:

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Yeah, but they live in the core of the molten earth, were made as an antithesis to the local god and embody "chaos". Doesn't get more "demony" than that.

Kreegans were more or less mistaken (by the fans, lol) for demons when they were really part of an alien invasion. Hardly the same thing

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They live in the core of the planet because they were banished there. Urgash knows where he first created them and send them to Ashan. To me, they're the same aliens, even with similar goal - exterminate the world or populate it in "alien" forms of life. What's the difference if they're Demon aliens or simply aliens?

You do know that, for example, in H3 only top guys (Devils etc) were Kreegans, don't you?.. Others are, well, demons. And others are, well, majority.
Though you made a very good point: Kreegans were mistaken by the fans themselves for Demons. Ask yourself whose fault it is. A hint: not fans. A Heroes player will never even suspect sci-fi elements if he hasn't played/heard of M&M RPGs. And remember what happened when they tried to do Forge faction.
Then ask yourself how many guys out there really prefer sci-fi over pure fantasy.

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Verriker said:

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Sandro400 said:

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You do know that, for example, in H3 only top guys (Devils etc) were Kreegans, don't you?.. Others are, well, demons. And others are, well, majority.

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citation needed,
it's unclear about Imps, Cerberi are beasts, and Gogs and Efreeti come from the Fire Plane, but the Demons and Pit Fiends are probably Kreegans just like the Devils lol

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EnergyZ said:

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Sandro400 said:

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They live in the core of the planet because they were banished there. Urgash knows where he first created them and send them to Ashan. To me, they're the same aliens, even with similar goal - exterminate the world or populate it in "alien" forms of life. What's the difference if they're Demon aliens or simply aliens.

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Actually, if I remember correctly, there was this Inferno town that mentioned in its biography Urgash created demons from a stone, obsidian, or something. Definitively not from outer space.

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Sandro400 said:

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verriker said:

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citation needed,
it's unclear about Imps, Cerberi are beasts, and Gogs and Efreeti come from the Fire Plane, but the Demons and Pit Fiends are probably Kreegans just like the Devils lol

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Creegans are collectively known as the Devils...
If you'd read my post carefully (again you didn't), you would've noticed "etc" after "Devils". Pit Lords, iirc, are Kreegans too, but simple Demons do not look like them. More like half-human half-rats reffered to as Demons.
What I meant is that only top brass of H3 Inferno can be called Kreegans. That's a little part of the faction.

EnergyZ said:

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Actually, if I remember correctly, there was this Inferno town that mentioned in its biography Urgash created demons from a stone, obsidian, or something. Definitively not from outer space.

---

1) It was in H5, may no longer be canon, as well as Mal-Beleth, Kha-Beleth's predecessor (who turned out to be just another of his names).
2) It was a legend (even from within the universe).
3) Are stone/obsidian exclusive for Ashan?..

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verriker said:

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Sandro400 said:

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Creegans are collectively known as the Devils...
If you'd read my post carefully (again you didn't), you would've noticed "etc" after "Devils". Pit Lords, iirc, are Kreegans too, but simple Demons do not look like them. More like half-human half-rats reffered to as Demons.

---

yes I did lol, and took it that you meant Devils and Arch Devils lol
Efreeti are also in the top brass but they are not Kreegans lol

the Kreegans are not only called the devils, but also the demons, the devil Kreegan, the Kreegan demons, and all and sundry lol
your "half rat" demons and greater demons in H3 are very, very clearly implied to be Kreegans lol

there are also other demons in the Underworld who attacked Erathia in Tarnum's day, but they are just represented by the H3 Inferno, they are not in its canon lineup lol

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Sandro400 said:

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verriker said:

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yes I did lol, and took it that you meant Devils and Arch Devils lol
Efreeti are also in the top brass but they are not Kreegans lol

the Kreegans are not only called the devils, but also the demons, the devil Kreegan, the Kreegan demons, and all and sundry lol
your "half rat" demons and greater demons in H3 are very, very clearly implied to be Kreegans lol

there are also other demons in the Underworld who attacked Erathia in Tarnum's day, but they are just represented by the H3 Inferno, they are not in its canon lineup lol

---

Then I guess we had a little misunderstanding here. ^_^
But Efreeti are clearly not Kreegans, saying that tob brass are Kreegans does not mean that all of the tob brass are Kreegans exclusively. And while Efreeti are powerful creatures, I doubt that they had great political influence in Eofol.

Well, now, I want to hear as well why do you think H3 Demons are Kreegans as well. I'm now curious myself, as we've never seen those "demons" again and they pretty much don't look like Kreegans.

Nice piece of trivia, though I never mentioned them. ^_^

kiryu133 said:

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The fact that the ubi demons have their entire origin and history written out is a reason they can't be seen as "aliens". I see your point but since they're not actually from outer space...

---

Pardon me, but... WHAAAAAT?
Alien, by definition of the word, means that the creature is not from planet X, but was from planet Y. By your criteria, Zergs are not aliens. Even Aliens from the renown Alien franchise are not aliens!
And once again I'm telling you that the birthplace of Demons is unknown. They may well be from outer space. Urgash travelled a lot and enjoyed his God powers while Asha was creating the world.

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verriker said:

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Sandro400 said:

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But Efreeti are clearly not Kreegans, saying that tob brass are Kreegans does not mean that all of the tob brass are Kreegans exclusively. And while Efreeti are powerful creatures, I doubt that they had great political influence in Eofol.

---

although not the dominant race I'm sure they had some pull, they were said to be the allies/peers of the Kreegans rather than underlings, several of them were heroes in charge of the Eeofol armies, definitely much more influential than the imps and gogs anyway lol

Sandro400 said:

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Well, now, I want to hear as well why do you think H3 Demons are Kreegans as well. I'm now curious myself, as we've never seen those "demons" again and they pretty much don't look like Kreegans.

---

because of the exact same logic as why we say the H3 and H4 Devils are Kreegans, there is no text directly stating this,
but you can assume it because the Kreegans are constantly called the devils and demons, and because Greg Fulton said "many people forget the Inferno is not populated by demons. It's populated by aliens who look like demons" lol

saying they don't look like the Kreegans is a bit lame because there are many types of Kreegans, winged Kreegans, breeder Kreegans, Kreegans with forks for arms, I mean even the Devils don't look a whole lot like other Kreegans in the games either lol

the H3 demons are actually also in H4, because many of the H3 Inferno heroes are the demons, and H4 states that that those so-called "demon" heroes are really Kreegans lol

Sandro400 said:

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And once again I'm telling you that the birthplace of Demons is unknown. They may well be from outer space. Urgash travelled a lot and enjoyed his God powers while Asha was creating the world.

---

I bet you they are from the same planet Jassad Attqua came from in his easter egg lol

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kiryu133 said:

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Sandro400 said:

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Pardon me, but... WHAAAAAT?
Alien, by definition of the word, means that the creature is not from planet X, but was from planet Y. By your criteria, Zergs are not aliens. Even Aliens from the renown Alien franchise are not aliens!
And once again I'm telling you that the birthplace of Demons is unknown. They may well be from outer space. Urgash travelled a lot and enjoyed his God powers while Asha was creating the world.

---

That was mostly a joke about space-fearers being much more interesting than demons.

Ubi demons are not strangers. They've been a vital part of Ashan lore for centuries and everyone and their grandmother knows someone who's made deals with them. They're not unknown or alien in any way. Kreegans are a completely new and alien threat to antagarich. Nothing like them had existed before and being from space just reinforces that. They're aliens. Ubi demons are not. I see what you mean: strangers coming to conquer could certainly be alien in nature except they're not really strangers.

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Sandro400 said:

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verriker said:

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definitely much more influential than the imps and gogs anyway

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On that I can agree.

verriker said:

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saying they don't look like the Kreegans is a bit lame because there are many types of Kreegans, winged Kreegans, breeder Kreegans, Kreegans with forks for arms, I mean even the Devils don't look a whole lot like other Kreegans in the games either

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Well, then let me say that H3 Demons (for me) don't look like Kreegans even considering their variety. They really look like half-humans half-rats.
It hurts that we don't have any explicit info about them. This question now really became interested for me.

verriker said:

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the H3 demons are actually also in H4, because many of the H3 Inferno heroes are the demons, and H4 states that that those so-called "demon" heroes are really Kreegans lol

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Pardon me, but where did you found H3 Demons in H4?.. Infernopolis doesn't have any Demons at all. Imps, Hounds and "Devils".
Were Rat Demons present in RPG series, somewhere in Kreegan hive?

verriker said:

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I bet you they are from the same planet Jassad Attqua came from in his easter egg lol

---

What is your bet? ^_^

kiryu133 said:

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Ubi demons are not strangers. They've been a vital part of Ashan lore for centuries and everyone and their grandmother knows someone who's made deals with them. They're not unknown or alien in any way. Kreegans are a completely new and alien threat to antagarich. Nothing like them had existed before and being from space just reinforces that. They're aliens. Ubi demons are not. I see what you mean: strangers coming to conquer could certainly be alien in nature except they're not really strangers.

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It seems you have your own definition of some words, it makes our discussion very difficult.
One last try. As Kreegans were a new threat to Enroth, Demons were to Ashan, when it was young. Later Kreegans became an existing, not new, threat for Enroth, as time passed. Just as Demons became for Ashan, after their utter, but not complete, defeat. And yes, Chaos creatures are complete strangers to the world of Order and it's people. And yes, they even live in separate Prison (separated both physically and spiritually).
Also keep in mind that, for example, humans of Enroth are the same alien species to Kreegans as well. Alien is a very respective term. A Human in Sheogh will also be an "alien" (Aidan comes to my mind).

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verriker said:

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Sandro400 said:

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Pardon me, but where did you found H3 Demons in H4?.. Infernopolis doesn't have any Demons at all. Imps, Hounds and "Devils".

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like I said, in the hero pool, lol, several of the heroes whose race was classified as "demon" in Heroes 3 carry over into Heroes 4, the game where Kreegan and demon are completely interchangeable terms lol

Sandro400 said:

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Were Rat Demons present in RPG series, somewhere in Kreegan hive?

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no, not at all, but there are ratmen, if you are into that sort of thing lol

Sandro400 said:

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What is your bet? ^_^

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a wheel of rotten Wensleydale cheese lol

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Sandro400 said:

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verriker said:

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like I said, in the hero pool, lol, several of the heroes whose race was classified as "demon" in Heroes 3 carry over into Heroes 4, the game where Kreegan and demon are completely interchangeable terms lol

---

Did H3 state the races of the Heroes? Can't remember that.
Anyway, none of H3 Heroes look like Demon units (rat-heads). More like Incubus/Succubus, especially in Ash's case. I can even accept that they're Kreegans (which is the most likely possibility).

verriker said:

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no, not at all, but there are ratmen, if you are into that sort of thing lol

---

That's sad, their appearance in RPG series might have sold our disagreement.
It seems none of us have 100% solid arguments. Let's agree to disagree?

Avirosb said:

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You're saying Mexicans can't be aliens?

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I believe in this case the term "stranger" is more fitting, if you're suggesting a Mexican in China, for example. But for the Mars Mexicans are aliens for sure.

Macron1 said:

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There were Ice Demons (neutral as i remember).

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AFAIK there's no connection (aside from them being melee and share a "Demons" part of their names) between H3 Demons and Ice Demons. I don't even think Ice Demons are Kreegans, more something like Gogs.
Still, we're talking about rat-head Demons here.

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kiryu133 said:

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Axeoth appears to have actual demons or extraterrestrials  different from the Kreegans. quite interesting to be certain (i mean the venom spawn is supposedly a demon and that thing is certainly not related to the Kreegans).

Sandro400 said:

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It seems you have your own definition of some words, it makes our discussion very difficult.

---

nah, i think we just disagree on whether Ubi demons fill the criteria. You say they do, i don't seeing as they've had a large presence in the world since the beginning.

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verriker said:

---

Sandro400 said:

---

Did H3 state the races of the Heroes? Can't remember that.

---

it did indeed lol

Sandro400 said:

---

Anyway, none of H3 Heroes look like Demon units (rat-heads). More like Incubus/Succubus, especially in Ash's case.

---

nor do they look like the Kreegans from Might and Magic, but, they are the Kreegans, so it's just a matter of art direction really lol
like how the Orcs changed from green guys to pig men in the games, they are still the Orcs, it's just different art lol

kiryu133 said:

---

Axeoth appears to have actual demons or extraterrestrials different from the Kreegans. quite interesting to be certain (i mean the venom spawn is supposedly a demon and that thing is certainly not related to the Kreegans).

---

it is related to them, you can see them on one of the worlds the Kreegans conquered in the Gauldoth campaign lol

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kiryu133 said:

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verriker said:

---

it is related to them, you can see them on one of the worlds the Kreegans conquered in the Gauldoth campaign lol

---

so they're like assimilated into the Kreegans but not Kreegans originally? man that's cool and opens up so many possibilities


...that we'll never see

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Sandro400 said:

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Macron1 said:

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I was mistaken, Ice Demons belong to Necropolis and are bought in Ice Gate:

Do you think they are not Kreegans?

I think they have many in common:

---

Na-ah, they're still neutral, but affiliated with Infernopolis. Hard to explain, if you played Disciples, you should understand me.

Yes, I think so. At least because Kreegans have no knwon connection to Ice.

Faces are different, skin color etc... ^_^

verriker said:

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it did indeed lol

---

Well, I'll check it later.

verriker said:

---

nor do they look like the Kreegans from Might and Magic, but, they are the Kreegans, so it's just a matter of art direction really lol
like how the Orcs changed from green guys to pig men in the games, they are still the Orcs, it's just different art lol

---

The Kreegans we encounter in RPG series are mostly lower-ranking creatures resembling red mermen. Higher-ups might have more "demonic" appearance (Devils, for instance). Also, who knows, maybe some of those heroes are Succubus?..
About rat-headed Demons - we met them only once, they don't look like any of the previously seen Kreegans, they really resemble some sort of beastmen... I for one am not sure they those guys are Kreegans and not something like Gogs.
Oh, and we have some art incosistency in the Old Universe...

---

verriker said:

---

Sandro400 said:

---

The Kreegans we encounter in RPG series are mostly lower-ranking creatures resembling red mermen. Higher-ups might have more "demonic" appearance (Devils, for instance).

---

actually the ones in RPG series are said to be among the most elite and strongest of their race, I think you have a lot of research to do lol

anyway you have Kreegans without horns, Kreegans with two horns, Kreegans with twenty horns, Kreegans with and without tails,
Kreegans who shamble around like gorillas, Kreegans with bug eyes and wings, immobile breeder Kreegans with giant spider egg sacs, Kreegans with beards who can teleport,

it is a bit ridiculous to say Kreegans with elongated faces and hooves are a massive stretch lol

Sandro400 said:

---

Also, who knows, maybe some of those heroes are Succubus?..

---

not sure what you mean by this, they are demons, they are the same race as the so-called rathead demons, same as the elf heroes are the same race as the wood elves and grand elves lol

Sandro400 said:

---

About rat-headed Demons - we met them only once, they don't look like any of the previously seen Kreegans, they really resemble some sort of beastmen... I for one am not sure they those guys are Kreegans and not something like Gogs.

---

I will trust Greg Fulton who said "many people forget the Inferno is not populated by demons. It's populated by aliens who look like demons" lol

---

Sandro400 said:

---

verriker said:

---

actually the ones in RPG series are said to be among the most elite and strongest of their race, I think you have a lot of research to do lol

---

First of all, proof.
Second of all, you don't have an idea about relativity, don't you? Compared to Devils, their Queen, Pit Lords, even the unsusual ones with beards this horde of red creatures is a low-rank soldiers. Let's not forget that we're talking about an army. Army is ofc an elite part of the race/nation. Ta-da ^_^

verriker said:

---

it is a bit ridiculous to say Kreegans with elongated faces and hooves are a massive stretch lol

---

Except these are rat-faces which no other Kreegans have and we never see them again (quite strange, isn't it, if they're just regular kreegans?)

verriker said:

---

not sure what you mean by this, they are demons, they are the same race as the so-called rathead demons, same as the elf heroes are the same race as the wood elves and grand elves lol

---

I mean that some of them may be real Demons. Or at least creatures called Demons, but not Kreegans.
You see, not all Demons are Kreegans and not all Kreegans are called Demons, if you know what I mean. The term "Demon" may be used in a variety of ways to depict different creatures. We have had Ice Demons, after all.

verriker said:

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I will trust Greg Fulton who said "many people forget the Inferno is not populated by demons. It's populated by aliens who look like demons" lol

---

Well, Cerberi for Kreegan domestic dogs? Efreeti for Kreegans of Fire Plane?
Why you always assume that "it's populated by aliens" means "only aliens and no one else"? And, remind you, I'm not saying H3 Demons are demons. I'm saying they may not be Kreegans. Feel the difference ^_^

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Sandro400 said:

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First of all, proof.
Second of all, you don't have an idea about relativity, don't you? Compared to Devils, their Queen, Pit Lords, even the unsusual ones with beards this horde of red creatures is a low-rank soldiers. Let's not forget that we're talking about an army. Army is ofc an elite part of the race/nation. Ta-da ^_^

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Sandro400 said:

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Except these are rat-faces which no other Kreegans have and we never see them again (quite strange, isn't it, if they're just regular kreegans?)

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Sandro400 said:

---

I mean that some of them may be real Demons. Or at least creatures called Demons, but not Kreegans.
You see, not all Demons are Kreegans and not all Kreegans are called Demons, if you know what I mean. The term "Demon" may be used in a variety of ways to depict different creatures. We have had Ice Demons, after all.

Well, Cerberi for Kreegan domestic dogs? Efreeti for Kreegans of Fire Plane?
Why you always assume that "it's populated by aliens" means "only aliens and no one else"? And, remind you, I'm not saying H3 Demons are demons. I'm saying they may not be Kreegans. Feel the difference ^_^

---

Sandro400 said:

---

As expected, this "promising conversation" fell to "lol ridiculous lol", "lol it's dumb to say lol" and simply "lol lol lol". On a rare occasion when I asked for proof - "lol go see yourself lol". Let me guess: if I'll ask for those Kreegans who look similar to ratdemons, you'll say "lol go search yourself lol"? ^_^ Such discussion culture never ceases to amaze me. However, that was expected, that's your usual tactic.
You still cannot solid prove that H3 Demons are Kreegans and not something else (if your only argument is Fulton's word, then accept Efreeti and Cerberi as Kreegans as well, be consistent. ^_^) The same way as I won't be able to prove that they're not. See, a "lorehole". I still don't understand why you continued loling when this is a typical "agree to disagree".
Good loling ^_^

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verriker said:

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I am not trying to prove it though lol, I already said "there is no text directly stating this", only a massive amount of evidence lol

it is a pity you are more interested taking my syntax to task than my arguments, here is the text you were not interested to track down, "while most of the Kreegan can be slain with ordinary weapons and spells, the elite guards and upper echelon breeders have tougher skin and natural defenses that protect them from anything but very powerful weapons", lol

maybe you will actually have played the games next time you try to discuss them, until then lol

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Sandro400 said:

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Arguments?.. You had, let me guess, Fulton's words, on which I already commented.

---

Sandro400 said:

---

Btw, what is this text? I never requested it.

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Sandro400 said:

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It's without a doubt elite guards and breeders are one of the strongest of their kind. And we encounter them in RPG series, sure. But we also have, for example, Colony Zod (where Xenofex was) in VII, which is populated by simple green warriors and their captains, not so hard to defeat.
Now remember what I said: "the Kreegans we encounter are mostly low-ranking creatures". Now, if only you're not gonna tell me that ALL Kreegans we meet are "the elite guards and upper echelon breeders"...

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Sandro400 said:

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I hope I misunderstand you, or it looks like somebody failed hard.
You know, I'm now starting to have my doubts about your M&M RPG experience. ^_^ At least all the long-time lurkers of one forum might have already guessed from where your wellspring of knowledge comes.

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verriker said:

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I would say they are Kreegans because of Fulton's words

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verriker said:

---

because they look like Kreegans

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verriker said:

---

because they are the dominant race of the heroes leading Eeofol

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verriker said:

---

because of them being called "Kreegan troops" and "Kreegan demons" endlessly in Heroes 3 and 4

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verriker said:

---

and because nothing says they are not Kreegans

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verriker said:

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your only argument that we should not assume the Heroes 3 demons are Kreegans is because you personally think they look too much like rats, you are offering almost nothing else, no texts or research lol

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verriker said:

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yes you did, you said "first of all, proof" lol

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verriker said:

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I am telling you the ones resembling red mermen are not lower-ranking, they are among the strongest, they cannot possibly be lower-ranking when they are called the "elite guard", lol

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verriker said:

---

sounds like you have a very hard time believing that I am familiar with the games for some reason, even though I am the one providing the actual quotes and facts here lol

---