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And nothing says that they are. ^_^ What matters is visuals. They don't look like them. Kreegans are more merman- or even reptilian-like (especially the Queen).

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Sandro400 said:

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You know, that's your sole argument after all.

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Sandro400 said:

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ROFL! The whole point is that they don't look like the Kreegans we know, and this man tells me the exact opposite!

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Sandro400 said:

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Never seen any rat-faces beside Heroes...

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Sandro400 said:

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Imps, Cerberi etc are "Kreegan troops" too because they're serving them. It's the same as say "Empire troops" or "Elf beasts".

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Sandro400 said:

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And nothing says that they are. ^_^

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Sandro400 said:

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What matters is visuals. They don't look like them. Kreegans are more merman- or even reptilian-like (especially the Queen).

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Sandro400 said:

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Pardon me for being a creature with eyes and comprehension of analogy method of gaining science knowledge as well as critical mindset.

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Sandro400 said:

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And there's nothing wrong with Fulton himself, his statement is perfectly legit. It's your perception of them (faction of aliens = all of them are aliens) which puts us at odds.

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Sandro400 said:

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Well, let's see. M&M VI grand finale, the Hive. Workers, Warriors, flying badasses with horn crowns and Queen are red + green ones, don't remember their job. Now tell me how Warriors and Workers, who are rather numerous in the Hive, be "elite guard and breeders".

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Sandro400 said:

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And, mind you, iirc in all the cutscenes we have red Kreegans. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Sandro400 said:

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P.S.: you know, if you "perfectly remembered", you would've probably said "actually the red ones are one of the strongest..." rather than "actually the ones in RPG are...". Probably. ^_^

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Sandro400 said:

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Na-ah, it's without a doubt that you're familiar with the games.

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Avirosb said:

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No, that is clearly a beholder cosplaying as an ogre (H2).

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Macron1 said:

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At your place i would not be so sure:

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Quote:

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Ajit studied carefully the works of Agar, the foolish wizard/scientist of Enroth who accidentally created the beholders and evil eyes which he now commands, training a 'better breed' to be used in combat.

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verriker said:

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I would be so sure, because it is a beholder/evil eye (not the ones in Heroes but rather a prototype version created by Agar) lol

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Macron1 said:

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What's with demons/devils from MM4? Agar copied demons?

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verriker said:

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Macron1 said:

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What's with demons/devils from MM4? Agar copied demons?

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MM4 is on a completely different world dude, lol

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Macron1 said:

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OK, in MM4 demons and devils are kreegans, right?

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Avirosb said:

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No, that is clearly a beholder cosplaying as an ogre (H2).

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Elvin said:

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ErWin

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War-overlord said:

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Galaad said:

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What could be a plausible way to (re)introduce skeletal liches, without disturbing the lore.

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Easiest way: Pull a Heroes4 or find another way to introduce a new universe, that allows you to alter every rule, especially the ones you don't like. Likelyhood of that happening = Not very high, if only for the fact that you'd have to wait at least another cycle of games before this is concievable. And there is the case of convincing the M&M-team, especially Erwan.

Way 2: Find a way to cut off Namtaru-venom. This would force the undead to invent new ways of remaining undead. Which in turn, Gods willing, could introduce more decayed undead. Likelyhood of that happening = Even less. When killed by someone else Because this is exactly what was tried in Shades. It would be exceptionally stupid to make such a mistake again being Necromancers, which makes for very bad storytelling. Say what you want, but they're not bad storytellers on purpose. When the Mother Namtaru and the Fate Spinners all die of "natural causes", it is equally unlikely because that would require coming up with a multiple stage explaination, as you would first have to explain what causes the extinction, which probably needs another explaination. For example, if you say that the Namtarus all died of sickness, you'll have to explain the sickness as well, and why it works especially now and not in all the ages before, etc. That sort of multistage explainations are especially prone to convolutedness and contrivance.

Way 3: Introduce Nethermancer-Necropolis, Sandro became what he is, by having some Nethermancy go bad on him. (Which coincidently is exactly why Kaspar is missing half his face as well) From what I can tell, Nethermancy is finnicky and accidentprone. The more people dabble in that, the more it will go wrong. Likelyhood of that happening = Not very high. The Cult of the Void is small and underground. It would be contradictory to have them be a force capable of open warfare.

Way 4: Find a way to introduce the necessity including Manticore Venom, as Stevie suggests. Likelyhood of that happening = Very unlikely. As I tried explain before, this requires coming up with a reason to deliberately make the ritual go wrong for reasons. That is exceptionally hard, because you are forcing contrivance here. You hate them for their bad and contrived storytelling, but you invite bad and contrived storytelling when it suits your purpose.

Way 5: Find a way to cut Vampires out of the equation. Likelyhood of that happening = Not very high. That would mean cutting out an iconic unit. But for the sake of argument, let's explore the possibility. Lichdom is a stage of undeath, according to the lore. Vampirism is the next. As a rule, Liches strive to become Vampires. While Liches, they continue to age without praticularly decaying. Very old (Arch)Liches are little more than shrivelled skin streched over bones. (Not exactly skeletons, but possibly close) When cut off of the ability to become Vampires, Liches can do little else than continue aging. But like I said, that would require you do something about Vampires first.

That's all I can come up with.

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Sandro400 said:

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War-overlord said:

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Way 5: Find a way to cut Vampires out of the equation. <...>
But like I said, that would require you do something about Vampires first.

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There's no need for such drastic changes.
In DoC they introduced "Eternal" branch of the Necropolis - disciples, apprentices, scholars, mentors etc. They're all (except for Archon, that's another story) living humans, apparently something like "eternal students" who fail their exams and are not allowed to drink the Spider venom. So they remain living, not recieving the status of Undead.
Vampires are "elite from the elite". I think there is a high probability that not all Archliches are allowed to become Vampires and remain in their lich state. Kaspar, for example, is a lich for roughly 300 years and 99% that he's an Archlich.
Now, bend the visuals a little, leave Liches as they are and make Archliches like half-skeleton half-mummy as you said and we got a compromise.
Now surely Kaspar looked well before his experiment, but he may have used some of his medicine to fight aging or something along those lines.
P.S.: btw, Karthal was not annexed, it was Empire's protectorate for centuries.

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Sleeping_Sun said:

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Well, you can reintroduce skeletal liches by introducing Shantiri liches. I think Marzhin mentioned them in one of his posts. For example, the necromancer's weakness of being too dependant of Mother Namtaru and her venom (+ Shades of darkness H6 Necro story) has forced many liches, vampires, humans and any other race (interested in undeath) to search for a new way to become undead and to preserve their undeath. Eventually, a group of necromancers managed to find one or several Shantiri liches who shared their knowledge (for a price) - they might reveal something new about Asha, which strengthens their resolve to break their connection to Mother Namtaru. Throughout centuries she became less important, and less guarded as well. Some adventurers ended up killing her, and with her death Namtaru spiders disappeared eventually.

However you can also include Shantiri liches in another way. Let's just say that they have a purer knowledge/magic about necromancy (purer undeath) than the spider cult (since they do not depend on someone else for their undeath - they depend on their own knowledge and magic, but also because they were the first to become undead). Shantiri liches/necromancers could be more powerful than the spider cult necromancers. If that is the case they could look upon them as if they were the 'lesser undead' or even 'children' in comparison of their knowledge and power. They could even loath spider cult liches for being satisfied with such a filthy/impure/imperfect/lesser form of undeath - which could lead to war or maybe it can occur after the Dark Messiah, where shantiri necromancers are helping necropolis faction to survive in demon-filled apocalyptical world. This could also be a good opportunity to learn something more about Shantiri culture, but also to learn about the old Shantiri necromancers, who could maybe worship Asha, but also use void (thus being more skeletal), or perhaps they could use something else.

EDIT: Erwan would never allow this, but maybe some necromancers from NWC universe passed through the void (when escaping cataclysim of armageddon H3 -> H4), and appeared in Ashan. They could also spread a different form of necromancy or the two branches of necromancy could combine. Again, I am establishing this on another Marzhin's post:
My "unofficial" explanation is that Ashan and the Ancient Universe exist on opposite edges of the Void. The Ancient Universe is a universe where science explains everything, even magic, while Ashan is the opposite. Yet links and passages exist between the two universes, and characters are mirrored too. It's like the yin and yang of the Might & Magic franchise as a whole

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War-overlord said:

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Stevie said:

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[lore] This new state of skeletal lichdom relieves the soul from the burden of flesh, exposing its user more to the spirit world, greatly enhancing the channeling of magical powers.[/lore]Totally possible.

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Except it does not work that way.
That requires the whole laws of magic to be rewritten and it has another major flaw of introducing something new that was already there.

Let's tackle the easier problem first. According to the Compendium, Namtaru Venom already relieves the embiber of the burdens of flesh. So there is no added benefit there.

Second, the channeling of magic is done in four ways.
Through Divine favor, which is out of the question here.
By domininating elemental spirits, which what wizards do, mostly, but  that's not the case here either.
Through tapping into the essence of Chaos, again out of the question, no Necromancer would let himself in with that.
Or through tearing the Veil and letting it's effects seep into the physical realm. Which seems to be what your suggesting. However, you should know that such things can only be done in two ways. 1: Through Nethermancy, but that would discard the need for the Manticore Venom. Or through Shamanism, which only Orcs can preform, due to their chaos-infused blood and the spilling thereof.

So the proposed effects of your theory clash with the lore already in place. Thus defeating your purpose of not clashing with the lore.

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Sandro400 said:

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War-Overlord Yes, you did say for the sake of argument, but your 5th way is very good and it might happen. Just one detail (not removing vampires) - and we have totally logical and well-thought explanation.
Now, if only all this discussion could reach IP's ears...
P.S.: actually, people of the peninsula never thought of Agyn as annexed. Even that movement in Karthal which started after H6 didn't want secession, and Morgan was welcomed exactly because he was directly under Empress orders, not under Dukes who didn't cared about people.
P.P.S: and yeah, you're right 'bout MN, they hid her in Heresh even back in H6.

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War-overlord said:

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Sleeping_Sun said:

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Pawek_13 said:

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@Sleeping_Sun
This is a really good idea, yet again they have to finally move forward in timeline and this may happen in Heroes VIII.

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Not necessarily. In Heroes 8 we could explore why after all these (900?) years we did not heard anything about Shantiri necromancers (it could be set between H7 and H5), or why did they started appearing in some regions of the world - no need to be Heresh.

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I think the problem Pawek was referring to was that we'd have to wait untill Heroes 8.
Also, Marzhin mentioned that the Shantiri Liches would not be part of Necropolis, but neutral. Being bought off seems a very cheap way of getting around that.
Lastly, that all rests on the supposition that these Shantiri Liches have a different way of being undead.

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Elvin said:

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Or move on to a timeline where skull-faced nethermancers are more popular or the campaign's hero is a champion of the void. Skull liches in the lineup, fleshy liches as neutrals or reserved for his opponents. Problem solved..

Zombiefied liches are just meh :/

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Sleeping_Sun said:

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War-overlord said:

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Sleeping_Sun said:

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Pawek_13 said:

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@Sleeping_Sun
This is a really good idea, yet again they have to finally move forward in timeline and this may happen in Heroes VIII.

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Not necessarily. In Heroes 8 we could explore why after all these (900?) years we did not heard anything about Shantiri necromancers (it could be set between H7 and H5), or why did they started appearing in some regions of the world - no need to be Heresh.

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I think the problem Pawek was referring to was that we'd have to wait untill Heroes 8.
Also, Marzhin mentioned that the Shantiri Liches would not be part of Necropolis, but neutral. Being bought off seems a very cheap way of getting around that.
Lastly, that all rests on the supposition that these Shantiri Liches have a different way of being undead.

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Well, the first step is to introduce them, second to establish a story around them, and third to play with them. I understand that we would have to wait for H8, but if something like that is possible, shouldn't we(Erwan) go for it?
I am hopeful that something can be done about that since we don't know anything about Shantiri Liches at this moment. Or at least I do not know...  
Edit: Even without Shantiri Liches/necromancers, the events of H6:SoD would be enough to encourage me to find another way for my undeath. Mother Namtaru is simply a too big a weakness for me to just rely on her well-being for my survival. Unlike the spider cult, NWC necro/liches are in advantage since they are independent in their necromancy.

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Stevie said:

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War-overlord said:

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Let's tackle the easier problem first. According to the Compendium, Namtaru Venom already relieves the embiber of the burdens of flesh. So there is no added benefit there.

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You seem to have misunderstood, I was just restating that part. The "added benefit" can be found in the part that you completely ignored, let me show you:

Stevie said:

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[lore]
This new state of skeletal lichdom relieves the soul from the burden of flesh and exposes it more to the spirit world, greatly enhancing the channeling of magical powers.
[/lore]

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Then:

War-overlord said:

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Second, the channeling of magic is done in four ways.
Through Divine favor, which is out of the question here.

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You managed to exclude the right one from the very beginning. The point of my idea is quite Sar-Elam-esque actually, even if it's not done through meditation but through Necromancy and at a smaller scale. Getting closer to death -> getting closer to the spirit world -> getting closer to Asha's conscience, the one that they are even worshiping -> getting Asha's favor -> more power.

There is no contradiction with the lore, and the novel part - spirit world affinity - not only does it not bend anything but it works and for a good cause: Skeletal Liches.

Edit: Did I mention Belketh, the one who discovered Necromancy, was a disciple of Sar-Shazzar who in turn was a Disciple of Sar-Elam who traveled through the spirit world to reach Asha's conscience? It connects so many dots that it's practically the best explanation. Liches lose their flesh and become more receptive to the spirit world in their state of undeath, receiving the favor of Asha which they happen to even worship. It's just perfect.

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Maurice said:

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The one thing that seems to be underlying this issue is that the Necromancers form a united front, all together under the Mother Namtaru. But why would they be so cooperative to begin with?

I could imagine jealousy and downright powerplay between various Necromancers and subfactions within the Spider Cult, causing friction and perhaps even outright rebellion and civil war among the Necromancers. This conflict causes a significant portion of the Liches to be cut off from the very source that preserves them: Namtaru's blood.

Following this predicament, they're desperately searching for an alternative (which may very well be Void magic, as it seems to be the only viable alternative allowed by the lore as it is now), which they eventually find before it's too late. Having become (largely) independent of the Mother Namtaru's venom, they also do not change into Vampires anymore, but rather slowly wither away until nothing more but a skeletal husk remains.

Eventually the renegades are cornered and destroyed, but the Liches of the Spider Cult realise that their rebellious brethren were not as vulnerable anymore as they themselves are (also keeping in mind the events that were triggered by Sandro, as he was attempting to erase the Mother Namtaru from history), so overtime they've started to adopt the practices of the rebels, to a somewhat lesser degree. While initially frowned upon, it is eventually incorporated and commonly accepted into the Spider Cult to remove a vulnerability.

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Sandro400 said:

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Maurice said:

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The one thing that seems to be underlying this issue is that the Necromancers form a united front, all together under the Mother Namtaru. But why would they be so cooperative to begin with?

I could imagine jealousy and downright powerplay between various Necromancers and subfactions within the Spider Cult, causing friction and perhaps even outright rebellion and civil war among the Necromancers. This conflict causes a significant portion of the Liches to be cut off from the very source that preserves them: Namtaru's blood.

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Actually, they don't. There're religious fanatics of MN and direct followers of Belketh. He's still very respected by Necromancers but he doesn't pray to Asha or MN. Plus there already was a secession with Sandro.

Adn again, actually that happened. Miranda from H6, for example. Political intrigues during Heroes Online storyline (rivalries between members of the inner circle of Necro). But what keeps them in check is MN herself.
Once she arrived, Necro slowly became more fanatics than wizards. Belketh was wise enough to not dispute with the Avatar of Asha and gave up leadership, but still retained great power within the cult (mainly because he's the founder of the Order). Though if he had stood against MN, it most likely would've been resulted in schism between Necro, but he chose to not provoke her.
And when she arrived she exposed Sandro as the Netherlord. Mainly it was her who ruined his sharade. And only thanks to Belketh he was just banished. Then for a while she kept them all united, though some like Miranda tried to climd political ladder nonetheless.
Now after second war with the wizards necro are beaten, their kingdom shattered. We don't know if MN is alive or no, she was not present during Clash of Heroes or H5. And look, when she's is supposedly not present, Necromancers form their individual little kingdoms in Heresh (Giovanni and others). Ludmilla tried to unite them, but failed hard. Markal pushed his own goals without even thinking about Mother Namtaru.
Only when Arantir - another religious fanatic - came, did Necro unite again. And in Dark Messiah we again have Namtarus.
That makes me think that after war with wizards MN turned dormant and was hidden somewhere. Without her to keep Necro united, they scattered and formed individual fiefdoms. But Arantir maybe found MN and with her help reunited Heresh under his rule and revived Spider Cult (H5 necros didn't even remotely thought about religion).
Wow, that took me long. Sorry for the wall of text.
P.S.: oh and yes, there was a brief moment when Sandro apparently took control of Heresh. Iirc, after CoH and until his death.

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Sandro400 said:

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Maurice said:

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Lol. But isn't the wall of text contradicting the very lines you started your essay with? You claim there was no rebellion and then you continue to relate the story of how the whole faction fell apart . Also, with the Mother Namtaru gone from the picture (wherever she went), Liches are in an immediate predicament - exactly the sort of situation that might force them to look for alternatives to the Namtaru's Blood to remain Undead for a while longer .

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I might have made a spelling error or you misundestood me, on the contrary, I state that there indeed were different group of Necromancers, but never a direct "rebellion".
Even if Mother Namtaru is gone, lesser Namtarus might still be present. And I think there is another way to create a Lich (ressurect somebody as such), just like there is another way to become a Vampire.

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War-overlord said:

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Stevie said:

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[lore]
This new state of skeletal lichdom relieves the soul from the burden of flesh and exposes it more to the spirit world, greatly enhancing the channeling of magical powers.
[/lore]Then:
You managed to exclude the right one from the very beginning. The point of my idea is quite Sar-Elam-esque actually, even if it's not done through meditation but through Necromancy and at a smaller scale. Getting closer to death -> getting closer to the spirit world -> getting closer to Asha's conscience, the one that they are even worshiping -> getting Asha's favor -> more power.

There is no contradiction with the lore, and the novel part - spirit world affinity - not only does it not bend anything but it works and for a good cause: Skeletal Liches.

Edit: Did I mention Belketh, the one who discovered Necromancy, was a disciple of Sar-Shazzar who in turn was a Disciple of Sar-Elam who traveled through the spirit world to reach Asha's conscience? It connects so many dots that it's practically the best explanation. Liches lose their flesh and become more receptive to the spirit world in their state of undeath, receiving the favor of Asha which they happen to even worship. It's just perfect.

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Oh, this is wrong on many points. So, let me just tackle the greatest ones.
1. There is no such thing as Asha's favor. As Sandro correctly states, Asha does not answer the prayers of her followers, unlike the Elemental Gods. Asha, in her sleep, has a very laissez faire attitude to her creation. Nobody get's her favor, not even the ones who worship her "correctly", like the Blind Brothers or the Silent Sisters, let allone those who worship her wrongly, like the Necromancers.
Which gets us to the way Necromancers "get magic". They do not get it from Asha, as you claim against Sandro. They get in the same way as Wizards do. By dominating other magical beings and using artifacts that have bound spirits already. The magic of Necromancer differs from that of Wizards only in purpose, not in origin. Necromancy itself is actualy a from of Dark Magic which, if anything, would lead them to Malassa. The notion that Necromancers get their power from Asha is something that is between their ears.

2. The spirit world is on the other side of the Veil, you do not get close to that, you either get in or you do not. As I've said there are only 2 ways the Veil can be torn. Necromancy is not one of them.

3. Necromancy only gives dominion over corpses, or spirits that have not passed on, like Ghosts which refuse to pass on or get lost or Ghouls, which are forcebly removed from the cycle. If anything, spirits very much need guidance to find their way to the Spiritworld, which is why the Silent Sisters exist, which is an actual cult of Asha. Necromancers who would follow spirits on their own are very likely to either get to the edge of the veil and then nothing, or they manage to follow the spirits to the Netherworld. The Netherworld being an anomaly between the Physical world and the Spiritworld, where the souls get trapped forever. So getting closer to Asha via the dead will get them nothing or trapped.
Also the chance of a Silent Sister aiding a Necromancer in this is non-existant, because the Sisters despise the Necromancers for their heretical interferrence in the proper cycles of life and death.

4. Managing to reach conciousness of Asha, made Sar-Elam a God. Fact remains that Sar-Elam was the only one ever able to do so, despite his teachings being taught for centuries. That suggests that the teachings of Sar-Elam are flawed, because if they were not more talented Wizards would have been able to do so.

5. I agree with Sandro again here, that the major flaw in your explaination is that you don't explain anything, apart from all the flaws it otherwise has. You do not explain why this is the effect of Manticore venom, which in all other cases is simply a highly corrosive liquid. Your lore follows design argument fall on it's face as wel, as you do not follow it up. You claim to give a 100% lore-friendly explaination, which provides no explaination and clashes with the lore in many ways.

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Stevie said:

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War-overlord said:

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Oh, this is wrong on many points. So, let me just tackle the greatest ones.
1. There is no such thing as Asha's favor. As Sandro correctly states, Asha does not answer the prayers of her followers, unlike the Elemental Gods. Asha, in her sleep, has a very laissez faire attitude to her creation. Nobody get's her favor, not even the ones who worship her "correctly", like the Blind Brothers or the Silent Sisters, let allone those who worship her wrongly, like the Necromancers.
Which gets us to the way Necromancers "get magic". They do not get it from Asha, as you claim against Sandro. They get in the same way as Wizards do. By dominating other magical beings and using artifacts that have bound spirits already. The magic of Necromancer differs from that of Wizards only in purpose, not in origin. Necromancy itself is actualy a from of Dark Magic which, if anything, would lead them to Malassa. The notion that Necromancers get their power from Asha is something that is between their ears.

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Conceded. I have found lore that I was unaware of that confirms this. Truth be told, I was unnecessarily misguided by one of your points in a previous comment (this one: "Or through tearing the Veil and letting it's effects seep into the physical realm. Which seems to be what your suggesting. However, you should know that such things can only be done in two ways. 1: Through Nethermancy, but that would discard the need for the Manticore Venom. Or through Shamanism, which only Orcs can preform, due to their chaos-infused blood and the spilling thereof."). Therefore I chose to pursue the "Divine favor" path which I was unaware that didn't work with Asha in particular. Yet, I was right in that what I was going for initially could've been described as "Sar-Elam-esque", and I will explain that shortly after I clear some misunderstandings.

War-Overlord said:

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2. The spirit world is on the other side of the Veil, you do not get close to that, you either get in or you do not. As I've said there are only 2 ways the Veil can be torn. Necromancy is not one of them.

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Again, you either believe or you cleverly imply that the only way to get to the Spirit World is by "tearing" the Veil that separates it from the Physical World, which is false. You can "travel" through the Veil, which is what Sar-Elam did and his disciples also. The sole difference between Sar-Elam ascending to dragonhood and his disciples not being able to do the same is the fact that he found Asha's conscience in the Spirit World. He might as well have been the only one to ever set foot into the Spirit World to begin with, but I doubt that to be the case for the Veil too. In fact, I have found lore that pretty much contradicts that, here :" After Sar-Elam became the Seventh Dragon, many of his followers try to follow on his footsteps and undergo the same perilous journey through the Spirit World, to achieve the same transcendence. None succeeded. Those who survived the ordeal, including his seven disciples, however acquired great knowledge and wisdom during their spiritual quest.".

So what you have done in regards to the Veil and spiritual travel is making it a bigger problem than it actually is. Traveling through it is entirely possible, even though very dangerous. Not only is it possible, but doing so brings great knowledge, and with knowledge a better understanding of the spiritual world, the cycle of life and death, and ultimately power. There is legitimate reason behind that knowledge, as the Veil is not empty but filled with all kind of phenomena and entities. Look what Sar-Issus says about the Veil in his writings, The Myths of Creation:  The two worlds [Spiritual and Physical] would be separated by the "Veil", a magical gate, an antechamber filled with dreams, ghosts and frozen memories.". It is to be expected that spirits traveling through the Veil to the other side where the Spirit World is should be found. I think a Necromant would very much appreciate a state of lichdom that allows partial attunement to the spirit world which provides a better understanding of the spirits and phenomena they are trying to manipulate and therefore make their magic more potent, don't you think?

War-Overlord said:

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3. Necromancy only gives dominion over corpses, or spirits that have not passed on, like Ghosts which refuse to pass on or get lost or Ghouls, which are forcebly removed from the cycle. If anything, spirits very much need guidance to find their way to the Spiritworld, which is why the Silent Sisters exist, which is an actual cult of Asha. Necromancers who would follow spirits on their own are very likely to either get to the edge of the veil and then nothing, or they manage to follow the spirits to the Netherworld. The Netherworld being an anomaly between the Physical world and the Spiritworld, where the souls get trapped forever. So getting closer to Asha via the dead will get them nothing or trapped.
Also the chance of a Silent Sister aiding a Necromancer in this is non-existant, because the Sisters despise the Necromancers for their heretical interferrence in the proper cycles of life and death.

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The fact that spirits "need guidance to find their way to the Spirit World" only proves two things: One, that spirits have the power in and of themselves to get to the Spirit World through the Veil by traveling and not by "tearing" anything, and Two, that, depending on what "guidance" means, the Silent Sisters know "the right way" through the Veil at the very least.

Quote:

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4. Managing to reach conciousness of Asha, made Sar-Elam a God. Fact remains that Sar-Elam was the only one ever able to do so, despite his teachings being taught for centuries. That suggests that the teachings of Sar-Elam are flawed, because if they were not more talented Wizards would have been able to do so.

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I think this is false, because he followed his own teachings. Furthermore he did not rectify any of them after his transcendence and return to Ashan, if that is of any indication.

War-Overlord said:

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5. I agree with Sandro again here, that the major flaw in your explaination is that you don't explain anything, apart from all the flaws it otherwise has. You do not explain why this is the effect of Manticore venom, which in all other cases is simply a highly corrosive liquid. Your lore follows design argument fall on it's face as wel, as you do not follow it up. You claim to give a 100% lore-friendly explaination, which provides no explaination and clashes with the lore in many ways.

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Explaining the effects of the Manticore venom is useless because it's already established lore with Moander's case. If you don't understand why that lead to his skeletal appearance then be my guest and ask Ubi about it, although I think it's quite clear. I only used it as a precedent because its result matches well with my goal - Skeletal Liches, which is the entire purpose of this endeavor, to prove that they can make the lore for it to include them.

On the other hand, if it's about why they get more power than normal liches, it's because skeletal lichdom is one step closer in nature to the spiritual world, and that provides a better understanding of (primordial?) magic, phenomena, entities like the spirit and ghosts and cycle of life and death - and yes, this is totally my input, but I does not contradict with any lore and it provides a persuasive reason to be accepted as a good transition from the "conventional" liches.

I understand Manticore poison combined with Namtaru venom as a mixture with contradictory effects. The Namtaru venom acts as an embalmer to preserve the body, while the Manticore poison acts as a corrosive substance as you said. On top of the fact that the body is left fleshless, the spirit too enters a contradictory state where, at the time of ingestion, it's being pushed towards departing the body by the Manticore venom as well as drawn back by the effects of the Namtaru venom that seeks to protect its link with the body. The result - a in between state where part of the Skeletal Lich's spirit is outside of its body into where the Veil begins and part is still attached. That brings great potential towards a better understanding of magic and the like.

One other reason for Skeletal Liches could involve something from the description of the Heroes 6 Archlich, where it's said: "An Archlich is given that title when he has continued "living" beyond what his or her physical shell would have normally permitted. Though this passage might seem arbitrary, it is not, for a Lich feels the moment pass when death should have come.". If drinking a mixture of Manticore poison and Namtaru venom results in the moment of death being right then and there, then there's a reason more to have Skeletal Liches as that invokes that state earlier and makes them more powerful.

This is my own rationalization but I don't find it contradictory with the lore. The novel parts that are introduced by me are there to provide a decent explanation for having Skeletal Liches, which is what we want. I would be curious to see what Marzhin has to say of this and if it's possible.

(And WO, I would appreciate if you tone down the animosity. Please consider the scope of this to be constructive criticism, not proving someone wrong.)

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War-overlord said:

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Stevie said:

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(And WO, I would appreciate if you tone down the animosity. Please consider the scope of this to be constructive criticism, not proving someone wrong.)

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The animosity is only in your perception.
If you want a 100% lore-correct explaination, any flaw I try to find in it just makes the explaination better in the end. People often fail to see flaws in their own creations and need the view of others to find these.

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I think this is false, because he followed his own teachings. Furthermore he did not rectify any of them after his transcendence and return to Ashan, if that is of any indication.

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When I stated Sar-Elam's teaching were flawed, I never implied that they were wrong. Being incomplete is also a flaw. Given that after his ascension, Sar'elam was pretty busy saving the world, he might have had better things to do than to update his books.

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Again, you either believe or you cleverly imply that the only way to get to the Spirit World is by "tearing" the Veil that separates it from the Physical World, which is false. You can "travel" through the Veil, which is what Sar-Elam did and his disciples also. The sole difference between Sar-Elam ascending to dragonhood and his disciples not being able to do the same is the fact that he found Asha's conscience in the Spirit World. He might as well have been the only one to ever set foot into the Spirit World to begin with, but I doubt that to be the case for the Veil too. In fact, I have found lore that pretty much contradicts that, here :" After Sar-Elam became the Seventh Dragon, many of his followers try to follow on his footsteps and undergo the same perilous journey through the Spirit World, to achieve the same transcendence. None succeeded. Those who survived the ordeal, including his seven disciples, however acquired great knowledge and wisdom during their spiritual quest.".

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The question is not if this lore is oficial or not, I concede it is. The question is whether this is to be taken literaly. Case in point M&M X contains a lore book that states that Tuidhana was a murderous madwoman that killed her entire immideate family to ascend to the throne herself. However, this lore book was supposedly written by an Elrathine Sister and Marzhin revealed that this lore book was not supposed to be taken seriously, as it was little more than Imperial Propaganda.
The piece you link to is part of the Void Chronicles, which was released in anticipation of Danse Macabre. So the question is if the Void Chronicles are to be taken as literaly or to be viewed as Legends. (I.E. containing a kernel of truth, but not something to be taken literaly)
Furthermore. If this is to be taken seriously, read carefully what is said. Many try to undertake the journey through the Spirit World, but none succeed. Those that survive learned a great deal. You interpret this as many have gone to the Spiritworld, but only Sar'Elam manages to find Asha. The others have learned a great deal in the Spiritworld. However the text is ambiguous and I read it differently. The fact that none succeed, to me, says that none manage to get past the Veil. In their attempts to do so, they learn a great deal about the nature of creation. The next paragraph seems to suggest that actually reaching the Spiritworld is the problem that none can get past, which is why the scholar tried to bypass that step altogether.

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So what you have done in regards to the Veil and spiritual travel is making it a bigger problem than it actually is. Traveling through it is entirely possible, even though very dangerous. Not only is it possible, but doing so brings great knowledge, and with knowledge a better understanding of the spiritual world, the cycle of life and death, and ultimately power. There is legitimate reason behind that knowledge, as the Veil is not empty but filled with all kind of phenomena and entities. Look what Sar-Issus says about the Veil in his writings, The Myths of Creation:  The two worlds [Spiritual and Physical] would be separated by the "Veil", a magical gate, an antechamber filled with dreams, ghosts and frozen memories.". It is to be expected that spirits traveling through the Veil to the other side where the Spirit World is should be found.

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I'm not saying that travel through the Spiritworld is impossibe. I'm saying that are only 3 kinds of people who know how to do it. Sar'Elam, the souls of the deceased (and it's a question if they have concious knowledge of this) and Orc Shamans through their Dreamwalking.
Even the myth of creation you reference, seems to suggest, that Dragon-created races aren't able to get to the spiritworld, as they are "forlorn on the other side of the Veil".

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The fact that spirits "need guidance to find their way to the Spirit World" only proves two things: One, that spirits have the power in and of themselves to get to the Spirit World through the Veil by traveling and not by "tearing" anything, and Two, that, depending on what "guidance" means, the Silent Sisters know "the right way" through the Veil at the very least.

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No, the Sisters do not Know the way. They pray to Asha to to accept the souls of the deceased. These prayers serve as beacons to Asha. The Sisters never go there themselves.
And yes, the Spirits are able to get to Asha on their own accord, guided by the moon. However as the Moon waxes and wanes, the light grows weaker and spirits get lost. This is often what Ghosts are, souls that got lost.

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On the other hand, if it's about why they get more power than normal liches, it's because skeletal lichdom is one step closer in nature to the spiritual world, and that provides a better understanding of (primordial?) magic, phenomena, entities like the spirit and ghosts and cycle of life and death - and yes, this is totally my input, but I does not contradict with any lore and it provides a persuasive reason to be accepted as a good transition from the "conventional" liches.

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This is where I meant the explaination falls short. You fail to explain why the lack of flesh brings better understanding and greater power. You are correct when you say there is precedent of Manticore Venom dissolves flesh. Since flesh had no meaning to Vampires or "conventional" Liches anyway. Vampire flesh is petrified and serves no function. Lich flesh dessicates by the embalming properties of the Namtaru venom, frees them from the passions of the flesh, and prevents decay, disease and natural death.
Furthermore, there is already a dissolving property in Namtaru Venom, evident in Vampires. Vampires have no blood of their own anymore and it is the Venom that flows through their veins. However, Vampires continually need to thin the Venom in their veins with actual blood, to prevent the Venom from dissolving them from the inside out.

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One other reason for Skeletal Liches could involve something from the description of the Heroes 6 Archlich, where it's said: "An Archlich is given that title when he has continued "living" beyond what his or her physical shell would have normally permitted. Though this passage might seem arbitrary, it is not, for a Lich feels the moment pass when death should have come.". If drinking a mixture of Manticore poison and Namtaru venom results in the moment of death being right then and there, then there's a reason more to have Skeletal Liches as that invokes that state earlier and makes them more powerful.

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Conceded. The addittion of Manticore Venom, could indeed lead to instantaneous Archlichdom. However, you fail to provide that the powers you claim attached to Skeletalness are in fact already attached to Archlichdom. As indeed the full description reads: "An Archlich is given that title when he has continued “living” beyond what his or her physical shell would have normally permitted.
Though this passage might seem arbitrary, it is not, for a Lich feels the moment pass when death should have come.
As they journey beyond the sacred cycle of Life and Death, they gain comprehension of greater powers, some which
can be used to sap the life force of living creatures."
If you want to push for Skeletal Liches through Manticore Venom,  I advise to cut out all your own fabrications and push the fact that this could result into instantaneous Archlichdom.

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This is my own rationalization but I don't find it contradictory with the lore. The novel parts that are introduced by me are there to provide a decent explanation for having Skeletal Liches, which is what we want. I would be curious to see what Marzhin has to say of this and if it's possible.

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The problem is that you Add to the Lore. IMHO, you should not do so. The lore is convoluted enough as is. Stick to what is known already, without making things more complicated.
You now have an easy, lore friendly way which requires no fabrication whatsoever, push that.
I would not expect Marzhin to comment on this. He has shown earlier that he has little sympathy for the recent Necro outcry.

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Stevie said:

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War-overlord said:

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The problem is that you Add to the Lore. IMHO, you should not do so. The lore is convoluted enough as is. Stick to what is known already, without making things more complicated.
You now have an easy, lore friendly way which requires no fabrication whatsoever, push that.
I would not expect Marzhin to comment on this. He has shown earlier that he has little sympathy for the recent Necro outcry.

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Just a question, even that part about an in-between state of the Lich's spirit was not convincing to you? I think my point relied heavily on that, which is why I went for Sar-Elam and his disciples because it provided a point in that being alive, entering the Veil and obtaining knowledge - therefore power - is possible (not necessarily reaching the other side - Spiritual World).

Doesn't matter in the end, as long as you, who's so pretentious about lore, admitted that instantaneous Archlichdom would be a good explanation for using Manticore venom and having Skeletal Liches. As long as that is achieved, I don't really care about what the lore even says.

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Avonu said:

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Speaking of correcting someone...

War-overlord said:

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When I stated Sar-Elam's teaching were flawed, I never implied that they were wrong. Being incomplete is also a flaw. Given that after his ascension, Sar'elam was pretty busy saving the world, he might have had better things to do than to update his books.

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Well, first, his ascension was in 0 YSD, his death was ca. 40 YSD and Wars of Fire started in 28 YSD. He had plenty of time to wrote correct lore.
Second, you are right about flaws in necromancy theories:

Erwan said:

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The Necromancers
By Jeff Spock, Writer, and Erwan Le Breton, World Coordinator.

"Life is chaos, filth and suffering. Death is peace, order, everlasting beauty."

Just what is a Necromancer? Where did they come from? What are their needs, their aspirations? Is there an order among the ranks of the undead?

Let us begin at the traditional place...

While the beginnings of many things are lost in the mists of time -- or at least misfiled upon the shelves of time -- the Necromancers of Heresh have a recorded history that has been well-documented.

Ahhh, documents! Timeless, ageless records that permit the wisdom and experiences of a people to be archived and managed, perused and discussed, as timeless and unchanging as Death itself... Necromancers without lore, Necromancers without a history, is a notion that is fundamentally impossible. For Necromancers are to a soul (which, yes, they do have) thinkers, philosophers, and seekers of wisdom and understanding. Their biggest problem, of course, is deciding when to end a debate; debates can go on forever when the debaters are deathless.

But on to the specifics.

As with many things that concern magic, necromancy began as part of the legacy of Sar-Elam, the great wizard who became the Seventh Dragon. His most gifted disciple was Sar-Shazzar, who went on to carve his own place in history.

Sar-Shazzar himself had a talented student, named Belketh.

In an age when the world was young and vibrant and much of magic was in doing, building, and experimenting, Belketh was a thinker and philosopher. Fascinated with the principles and passages of death -- must we all? do we all? where does the soul go? what exactly ends with death, and what begins? -- Belketh turned less and less to the teachings of his master and more and more to his own reflections and investigations.

At a critical moment he uncovered an ancient manuscript; it was a part of the writings of Sar-Elam collectively known as the Revelations of the Seventh Dragon. This particular chapter spoke of Necromancy, the power of the immortal soul, and the aspect of Asha that was least-known and least-worshipped.

Belketh was struck by the conviction that this countenance of Asha, though it was least understood and most feared, was all-embracing and all-encompassing.

For Asha, the goddess who created the world that bears her name, is all facets of the wheel of existence; the triple-faced figure of birth, life and death.
She is the Faceless Maiden, Destiny's herald, stitching here and there, unseen, to make sure that all the living creatures fulfil their purpose.
She is the Mother, who regards all things as her creation and her children. By giving birth, she set chaos into form and gives meaning to potential.
She is the Crone, wizened and old, who snips the web of life, with a sickle held in gnarled fingers, when the time has come.

The fateful text of the Revelations that Belketh read referred to this third image of Asha as the most powerful, holding sway over the works of the other two. From the rituals and the insights in this document Belketh gleaned two elements that would influence the development of the Necromancers.
One was the image of Asha as a spider, spinning the web of life, administering death through her mandibles when one's allotted time was up.
The other was the temptation of the alternative to life; death was not an end, merely a transformation. The petty desires and needs of the flesh, the destructive passions of the heart, the unreasoning decisions of the brain that piloted this mass of humours and conflicts -- death was the answer to all of that, the reduction of existence to its purest and most changeless form.

All agree that this fragment of the original text is at the origin of the Necromantic Kingdom of Heresh. After this point of agreement, however, all else diverges. On one side are the Necromancers, convinced that this fragment is the core and the essence of the teachings of Asha, and that the rest are dead ends, half-truths, and traps for the gullible and unwary. The other side of the argument, obviously, is that this fragment is necessarily only a part of a greater truth, and that in their dedication to this subset of Her teachings the Necromancers have missed much of Asha's message.

Feel free to debate this with a Necromancer some time, if you have a few decades to spare.

From this point of origin the Necromancers have built a culture and a structure of beliefs, founding a nation that has upon occasion wielded a terrible might.

The Hierarchy of Heresh

To become a lord of the Necromancers is the ideal of all who have chosen this path, though there are many other forms of unlife that have relatively more or less importance. In fact a Necromancer is not necessarily one of the non-living; in particular those who go on embassies to foreign lands are often still in human form. As they gain power, however, they inevitably choose to pass through the portal of death, becoming one of the undead. Little is known of this rite of passage to outsiders, as it involves the bite of the sacred spiders, the Namtaru, who dwell in the catacombs deep beneath the capital of Nar-Heresh.

Those who make this passage first become Asakkus, or "Liches", their bodies desiccated but intact, freed from the passions of the flesh to meditate undistracted.
As the decades pass, and they grow in power, they may earn the right to become Akhkharus, or "Vampires". For a Vampire is the most potent incarnation of a once-human form, one of the unliving lords of Heresh who hold sway over both the dead and undead.
Once a Lich ascends to take the form of a Vampire he ages backwards. The longer a Necromancer is undead, the younger and healthier he looks. The ruling council of the Lords of Heresh all appear to be in their mid-twenties, beautiful and unchanging.

Rabisus, or "Ghouls", on the other hand, are distinctly lesser undead. Formed when a Necromancer forces a soul to remain in a dead body, they are trapped between life and death. They are tormented; filled with hatred for the living. Powerful Necromancers can control them, but otherwise they are wild and destructive. Transformation into a ghoul is used as the ultimate punishment in Heresh, and is a means of permanently removing a soul from the cycle of death and transformation.

Zombies and skeletons are the least potent, mere soulless bodies re-animated by death magic. They shamble about following orders, and even the lowliest Necromancer can command them with absolute authority.

Edimmus (ghosts, spectres and wraiths), finally, are disembodied spirits of the dead. They can be trapped, geased, and commanded by sufficiently powerful Necromancers, though in Heresh they are more often used as scouts and allies. Ghosts can barter their services for favors done for their descendants, for deeds done among the living, or for aid in returning to a body -- living or not -- and entering once more into Asha's great cycle.

Those wishing to further study the lore of the Necromancers and the history of Heresh are invited to peruse one of the great libraries of the Silver Cities, perhaps one of those in Qays or Fidaa. The eager student may even travel to Heresh to learn from the source, though those who do so seem, upon their return, to be somewhat altered...

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War-overlord said:

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So what you have done in regards to the Veil and spiritual travel is making it a bigger problem than it actually is. Traveling through it is entirely possible, even though very dangerous. Not only is it possible, but doing so brings great knowledge, and with knowledge a better understanding of the spiritual world, the cycle of life and death, and ultimately power. There is legitimate reason behind that knowledge, as the Veil is not empty but filled with all kind of phenomena and entities. Look what Sar-Issus says about the Veil in his writings, The Myths of Creation:  The two worlds [Spiritual and Physical] would be separated by the "Veil", a magical gate, an antechamber filled with dreams, ghosts and frozen memories.". It is to be expected that spirits traveling through the Veil to the other side where the Spirit World is should be found.

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I'm not saying that travel through the Spiritworld is impossibe. I'm saying that are only 3 kinds of people who know how to do it. Sar'Elam, the souls of the deceased (and it's a question if they have concious knowledge of this) and Orc Shamans through their Dreamwalking.
Even the myth of creation you reference, seems to suggest, that Dragon-created races aren't able to get to the spiritworld, as they are "forlorn on the other side of the Veil".

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Actually, you can travel through Spirit World - we did it in Vein's campaign in 50 Shades of Purple and we did it again in Heroes Online.

What is different, then is no one besides Sar-Elam (as far as we know), who reached Asha's healing cocoon (Moon) - he was only one who did that and leanrt by that great knowlegde and power... so great that he became Seventh Dragon and ended Elders Wars between two powerful races.

Staff of Netherworld said:

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After Sar-Elam became the Seventh Dragon, many of his followers tried to follow in his footsteps and undergo the same perilous journey through the Spirit World, to achieve the same transcendence. None succeeded. Those who survived the ordeal, including his 7 disciples, however acquired great knowledge and wisdom during their spiritual quest. One initiate named Taybah, though, met a gruesome demise on the path of elevation. The foolhardy scholar believed the key to success was to skirt around the Spirit World altogether, taking a shortcut through the Void itself. But as his spirit crossed into the Void, Taybah's spirit was twisted in a silent scream as it became frozen out of time and space. Simultaneously, in the physical world, his body decomposed in a matter of seconds, to the horror of the witnesses present around him. All that remained of Taybah was his skull. Nobody remembers who had the idea to mount the skull on a staff, creating the artifact now known as the Staff of the Netherworld, but it has always been thought to be cursed. It is said that looking in the skull's eyes is like staring into the Void.

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His fallowers tried to fallow his steps, even by crossing the Void, but no one - sans Sandro - returned... and I don't relly know if even Sandro returned in whole... I mean, he lost his flash durning this journey, but is this his only lost?

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War-overlord said:

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Stevie said:

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Just a question, even that part about a in-between state of the Lich's spirit was not convincing to you? I think my point relied heavily on that, which is why I went for Sar-Elam and his disciples because it provided a point in that being alive and entering the Veil is possible (not necessarily reaching the other side - Spiritual World).

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No. Not in the least, as it require creation of (contradictory) lore. It requires the explaination of how and why such Liches can be in both dead and undead at the same time. It require expanding already complicated rules. And most of all, I still don't think you've sufficiently proven that entering the Veil alive and returning is a thing than anyone other than Sar'Elam has been able to do. (Orcs and Nethermancers don't count, because as I say, they tear a rift in the Veil).

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Doesn't matter in the end, as long as you, who's so pretentious about lore, admitted that instantaneous Archlichdom would be a good explanation for using Manticore venom and having Skeletal Liches. As long as that is achieved, I don't really care about what the lore even says.

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I object to being called pretentious.
But other than that, it works because it uses things we already know. Archliches are Liches who have lived beyond their lifetime. If you kill yourself first and become a Lich afterwards, as Moander, you take out the step of having to live your preordained lifetime first. It takes a very human thing, the desire to make things more efficient and easy and uses that to explain why they do such a potentially dangerous thing. It's incredibly Human to want to take a big stupid risk, for a potentially great reward. And for all their Ascetic Cultism, Necromancers have shown to be hypocritical and this could serve as a perfect example. The Void Bypas from the Void Chronicles is another example of this.
Mind, that this can also be countered very easily. The simple statement that: "Yeah, a lot of people tried that and it goes wrong nearly every time. This convinced almost everyone that this is just a realy, realy stupid idea. Though every once in a while some lazy moron tries it again and dies horribly. In the end, Moander proved to be just very, very, very, very lucky." does away with the whole idea.

Avonu said:

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Speaking of correcting someone...
Well, first, his ascension was in 0 YSD, his death was ca. 40 YSD and Wars of Fire started in 28 YSD. He had plenty of time to wrote correct lore.

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In that time, he was also stopping the Angles and the Faceless from wiping eachother of the face of Ashan, helping Ronan Falcon unite the Human Tribes into a single Empire and who know wat other unrecorded shenanigans that would have resulted in the doom of one race or another. He was pretty busy in those days.

Avonu said:

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Actually, you can travel through Spirit World - we did it in Vein's campaign in 50 Shades of Purple and we did it again in Heroes Online.
What is different, then is no one besides Sar-Elam (as far as we know), who reached Asha's healing cocoon (Moon) - he was only one who did that and leanrt by that great knowlegde and power... so great that he became Seventh Dragon and ended Elders Wars between two powerful races.
His fallowers tried to fallow his steps, even by crossing the Void, but no one - sans Sandro - returned... and I don't relly know if even Sandro returned in whole... I mean, he lost his flash durning this journey, but is this his only lost?

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I never got that far in Shades of Purple. My game keeps crashing in the first week of the second map. And I've stopped playing Heroes online. It takes too much time to get things (done).

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Avonu said:

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War-overlord said:

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In that time, he was also stopping the Angles and the Faceless from wiping eachother of the face of Ashan, helping Ronan Falcon unite the Human Tribes into a single Empire and who know wat other unrecorded shenanigans that would have resulted in the doom of one race or another. He was pretty busy in those days.

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1. Stopping Angels and Faceless - Convent of Twilight - and thus end of Elder Wars - has happened (according to Ashan Compendium) in year of Sar-Elam's ascendion - 0 YSD.
2. Ronan the Falcon united 7 human clans (and erased others ) in 3 YSD.
3. He did write his "Revelations" and take appreantices to teach them - so I guess he found time for that.
What I suggest is that, according to Erwan&Jeff Spock newsletter, Belketh and Sandro found only one, incomplete chapter of these Revelations. Necromancers took all their philosophy and knowledge from this part of Sar-Elam's teaching - they don't even fully know full context of what Sar-Elan wrote and what he has on his mind.

War-overlord said:

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I never got that far in Shades of Purple. My game keeps crashing in the first week of the second map. And I've stopped playing Heroes online. It takes too much time to get things (done).

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Too bad. In Hereos Online you enter Spirit World at the end of Chapter 3 and in Shades of Darkness it's whole 4th mission. I suggest you try to complete them... somehow.

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War-overlord said:

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Avonu said:

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1. Stopping Angels and Faceless - Convent of Twilight - and thus end of Elder Wars - has happened (according to Ashan Compendium) in year of Sar-Elam's ascendion - 0 YSD.
2. Ronan the Falcon united 7 human clans (and erased others ) in 3 YSD.
3. He did write his "Revelations" and take appreantices to teach them - so I guess he found time for that.
What I suggest is that, according to Erwan&Jeff Spock newsletter, Belketh and Sandro found only one, incomplete chapter of these Revelations. Necromancers took all their philosophy and knowledge from this part of Sar-Elam's teaching - they don't even fully know full context of what Sar-Elan wrote and what he has on his mind.

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Whereas that is all true, there are some complications.
1. The fact that they stopped fighting does not mean that Sar'Elam stopped helping. After that they need a lotta time to mourn and rebuild. We simply do not know if Sar'Elam did or did not help with that.
2. Same principle applies here with the Falcon Empire. We do not know if Sar'Elam stops being involved the moment Ronan is crowned.
3. We do not know when Sar'Elam took those disciples and when he wrote his books. That could have been before his ascension as well as after.
4. There is a reason I included unrecorden Shenanigans in my previous post. Given how involved he was with Angels, Humans and Faceless, I think there is reason enough to believe that he was equally involved with Dwarves, Elves, Naga and who knows who else.

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Stevie said:

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War-overlord said:

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No. Not in the least, as it require creation of (contradictory) lore. It requires the explaination of how and why such Liches can be in both dead and undead at the same time. It require expanding already complicated rules. And most of all, I still don't think you've sufficiently proven that entering the Veil alive and returning is a thing than anyone other than Sar'Elam has been able to do. (Orcs and Nethermancers don't count, because as I say, they tear a rift in the Veil).

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The Spirit, no matter if the body is alive or dead, has the power in and of itself to travel through the Physical World, The Veil, and the Spiritual World up to Asha herself. Proven by the cycle of reincarnation itself, by Sar-Elam and the others that Avonu mentioned.

Then the problem only resides at the level of you not accepting my "lore" as a possible explanation, which I personally have no problem with.

War-Overlord said:

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It requires the explaination of how and why such Liches can be in both dead and undead at the same time.

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Stevie said:

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On top of the fact that the body is left fleshless, the spirit too enters a contradictory state where, at the time of ingestion, it's being pushed towards departing the body by the Manticore venom as well as drawn back by the effects of the Namtaru venom that seeks to protect its link with the body.

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And that's how he's dead and undead at the same time. Part of his existence is outside his body, part is still attached. Not to mention that the body itself is dead.

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It require expanding already complicated rules.

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Do you really care at this point? One minor "expand" to this already snowed up lore to have Skeletal Liches back? Yea, any day of the week.


Ofc, this is a side issue now as we already established that the scenario is not even relevant at this point, because Liches consuming Manticore poison to achieve Archlichdom on the spot is already good enough.

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War-overlord said:

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Stevie said:

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Ofc, this is a side issue now as we already established that the scenario is not even relevant at this point, because Liches consuming Manticore poison to achieve Archlichdom on the spot is already good enough.

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So let's leave it be.
But I think it best to go the other way around. Don't have Liches consume Manticore Venom, already being undead, it's questionable if that kills them or if that counts as their allotted time.
Have Living people consume Manticore Venom and then Namtaru Venom to skip the entire Lich phase and go straight from Human to Archlich.

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Avonu said:

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@War-overlord
Why you call him Sar'Elam?

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Whereas that is all true, there are some complications.
1. The fact that they stopped fighting does not mean that Sar'Elam stopped helping. After that they need a lotta time to mourn and rebuild. We simply do not know if Sar'Elam did or did not help with that.
2. Same principle applies here with the Falcon Empire. We do not know if Sar'Elam stops being involved the moment Ronan is crowned.
3. We do not know when Sar'Elam took those disciples and when he wrote his books. That could have been before his ascension as well as after.
4. There is a reason I included unrecorden Shenanigans in my previous post. Given how involved he was with Angels, Humans and Faceless, I think there is reason enough to believe that he was equally involved with Dwarves, Elves, Naga and who knows who else.

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1. Well, Angels and Faceless were licking their wounds. Angels then had "brilliant" idea which involved: Hall of Memories, Seven Swords and Humans. I don't think they would thought about that, if Sar-Elam would help them.
2. He spoke prophecy about Line of Falcon, that when we heard last of him in Holy Empire until Wars of Fire in 28 YSD.
3. He wrote his Revelations after his ascendion - at least that what seems to be logical.
4. Elves and Dwarves were founding their kingdoms in Irollan and Grimheim. Naga left Shantiri Empire and went underwater some time after Elders Wars started but before Seventh Dragon ascendion. IIRC Eternal Empress is their leader since Shantiri (or even since forever?).

about Dwarves

MMX said:

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You're young, {0}, I'm not surprised you don't remember Sudgerd. A mighty fortress it was, yes... Our southernmost settlement, back in the days of the great Shantiri Empire. After the fall of the Empire and the scattering of its citizens, our people remained in the Vantyr mountains, digging for Flamegold and Shadowsteel.@Then a couple of centuries ago, a dark power started to grow in the mountains. Sinister voices and whispers echoed in the ancient mines, driving our people insane. Many killed themselves in gruesome manners. Fearing a curse, my ancestors abandoned the city. Some returned to Grimheim in the north, others chose to remain in the Peninsula until Sudgerd could be claimed again.

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about Elves

MMX said:

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You might not be aware of it, but a long time ago, the forests of Yon-Chall harboured a large population of Elves... Exiles from the lost Shantiri Empire. Most of them moved north to Irollan since then, and the woods remain dark and silent. But one trace of the former Elven inhabitants remains: in the Elven tongue, Yon-Chall means "the distant home".

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War-overlord said:

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Stevie said:

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Ok. Consuming the mixture while alive was a given, was it not?

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I thought so, until you started saying Liches consuming Manticore Venom.

And, I don't think it's the mixture that does it. It is the fact that you take the Manticore Venom first, which kills you by consuming you. And then taking Namtaru Venom to stop from actually dying.

Edit:

Avonu said:

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Why you name him Sar'Elam?
1. Well, Angels and Faceless were licking their wounds. Angels then had "brilliant" idea which involved: Hall of Memories, Seven Swords and Humans. I don't think they would thought about that, if Sar-Elam would help them.
2. He spoke prophecy about Line of Falcon, that when we heard last of him in Holy Empire until Wars of Fire in 28 YSD.
3. He wrote his Revelations after his ascendion - at least that what seems to be logical.
4. Elves and Dwarves were founding their kingdoms in Irollan and Greimheim. Naga left Shantiri Empire and went underwater some time after Elders Wars started but before Seventh Dragon ascendion. IIRC Eternal Empress is their leader since Shantiri (or even since forever?).

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Warcraft, Star Wars, Warhammer, other fiction. I keep forgetting that M&M splits a double name with a - as opposed most fictions I read which use a '.
As far as what Sar-Elam does or does not do, the problem here is that nobody (except maybes Erwan and Marzhin) knows. All we can do is guess.
But as far as his writings go, from what you quote, other people call his writings the "Revalations of the Seventh Dragon", if anything, that convinces me that he did not call them such himself. And who knows, they might just be research notes that his followers started using as teaching material.

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Stevie said:

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War-overlord said:

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Stevie said:

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Ok. Consuming the mixture while alive was a given, was it not?

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I thought so, until you started saying Liches consuming Manticore Venom.

And, I don't think it's the mixture that does it. It is the fact that you take the Manticore Venom first, which kills you by consuming you. And then taking Namtaru Venom to stop from actually dying.

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Oh, no that was just in anticipation on their new state. I didn't meant it as a requirement, because if anything being alive would be one.

Well, we don't know "for sure". It can be that the order of ingestion matters, it can be only having the mixture in your blood counts. They can swing it either way with some "after studying Moander's case and experimenting in controlled conditions" lines.

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War-overlord said:

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Stevie said:

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Oh, no that was just in anticipation on their new state. I didn't meant it as a requirement, because if anything being alive would be one.
Well, we don't know "for sure". It can be that the order of ingestion matters, it can be only having the mixture in your blood counts. They can swing it either way with some "after studying Moander's case and experimenting in controlled conditions" lines.

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Fine.
But don't forget my warning. This may very well be an easy and simple way of getting things done. It's also easily countered.

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Stevie said:

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Just gonna return one moment to what you said about the idea of Skeletal Lichdom through Manticore poison being easy to counter.

War-overlord said:

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Mind, that this can also be countered very easily. The simple statement that: "Yeah, a lot of people tried that and it goes wrong nearly every time. This convinced almost everyone that this is just a realy, realy stupid idea. Though every once in a while some lazy moron tries it again and dies horribly. In the end, Moander proved to be just very, very, very, very lucky." does away with the whole idea.

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A very unlikely scenario first of all, and second of all it accomplishes nothing, it just creates more restrictions for no reason. Moander managed to live with a plan cooked up on the spot, drinking a vial of Namtaru venom from the Black Market, and actual Necromancers in a controlled environment, with access to the substance and to the story straight from the horse's mouth can't at the very least replicate the incident? Not convincing at all.


If there is one reason for which they won't introduce Skeletal Liches back it's because they're stubborn or even crazy. There is 0 reason not to. Even in this restrictive and stupid lore some fans from a community forum managed to figure out a way of introducing them back, and they, who have the means to do much more, can't?! Sorry but not buying it.

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Marzhin said:

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Stevie said:

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A very unlikely scenario first of all, and second of all it accomplishes nothing, it just creates more restrictions for no reason. Moander managed to live with a plan cooked up on the spot, drinking a vial of Namtaru venom from the Black Market, and actual Necromancers in a controlled environment, with access to the substance and to the story straight from the horse's mouth can't at the very least replicate the incident? Not convincing at all.

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But what do they have to gain from it? Unless being a Skeletal Lich grants you some extra power or advantage, but in Moander's case it didn't. If anything it might have ruined his chance to become a Vampire later on, since there's no flesh to rejuvenate anymore.

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Stevie said:

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Marzhin said:

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Stevie said:

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A very unlikely scenario first of all, and second of all it accomplishes nothing, it just creates more restrictions for no reason. Moander managed to live with a plan cooked up on the spot, drinking a vial of Namtaru venom from the Black Market, and actual Necromancers in a controlled environment, with access to the substance and to the story straight from the horse's mouth can't at the very least replicate the incident? Not convincing at all.

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But what do they have to gain from it? Unless being a Skeletal Lich grants you some extra power or advantage, but in Moander's case it didn't. If anything it might have ruined his chance to become a Vampire later on, since there's no flesh to rejuvenate anymore.

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Well, without adding any lore, they could achieve Archlichdom (the Heroes 6 equivalent) because that's the state you get to through drinking Namtaru venom and living beyond your preordained life. If you trigger that moment right then and there by drinking Manticore poison, not only you end up Skeletal (which is the entire point) but you could also explain that they skip the Lich state directly to Archlich.

Then with Moander let's not forget that he was a Human General in the Empire. He did not practice Necromancy, what he did was "might" oriented, and even after that incident and joining the Necromants he just resumed his duties as a General as mentioned in his bio.

And that's done without adding anything. Of course, the ones that write the stuff can invent something to explain it better. Or is there any reason for which they can't?

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Marzhin said:

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@Stevie: you missed my point. Of course, we could find one thousand reasons why liches could become skeletons, just as we could find one thousand reasons for dragons to fart jolly leprechauns

But that's assuming that becoming skeletal is something Liches are actively seeking. Why would they want to look like skeletons -- beings they use as lowly slaves? Apart from "because some fans find it cool" or "for sexiness", I mean? These are both great reasons (OK, the first one at least ) but should not be the only reasons  

There's also the question of numbers. In an army, you're going to have dozens, if not hundreds of Liches. So whatever the reason for them to undergo this transformation into a skeleton process, it is something the majority of them do.

These are real questions, by the way, not me trying to show you are wrong or something. As I said, anything's possible. But without answering these questions, it's not going to work.

So there are two possible reasons: either there is some sort of gain related to becoming skeletal. If we go that route, which is possible, we are adding something to the lore. It shouldn't be done carelessly.

OR it is something that happened to a large number of them without them wanting it. For instance, lots of liches started decaying faster than expected when Sandro placed his Void curse on the Mother Namtaru for instance.

What I'm trying to say is -- the lore is adaptable, and can be changed when necessary. It has happened before, and is likely to happen again. But it needs to be done with the long-term, in-universe consequences in mind.

Contrary to what some fans seem to think, the people in charge of the Might & Magic Lore are not that stubborn (at least not more stubborn than, say, the average Heroes fan ), but they need to maintain some balance and consistency, because this world is shared with other games than just Heroes. If all we had to worry about was pleasing Heroes fans exclusively, our job would be easier

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Stevie said:

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@Marzhin, Liches becoming Skeletal is a side effect which they suffer in undergoing a ritual where they consume both Manticore venom and Namtaru venom which is similar to what Moander did. The Scope for them is to achieve immediate Archlichdom by triggering the moment of their death there because of consuming Manticore venom. That's arguably better than being a Lich for up to 100 years and only after it becoming an Archlich.

All that is based on the lore from Moander's bio and the lore from the transition from a Lich to Archlich in Heroes 6.

- Reason from the Necromants' POV - faster gain of Power: They achieve the Heroes 6 Archlichdom equivalent, effectively skipping the stage of Lich through triggering their preordained death right then by consuming Manticore venom and then Namtaru Venom. And if you achieve that faster and not wait decades for your preordained life to end, then you achieve the power that comes with Archlichdom faster;

- Reason from our POV: get the freaking Skeletal Liches back as it is a side effect of consuming Manticore poison and Namtaru Venom;

Problem with numbers? Why?! If that becomes common practice in stead of the old ritual, which it should because power now is better than power after 100 years from the ritual, then why would it be a problem?

Quote:

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So there are two possible reasons: either there is some sort of gain related to becoming skeletal...

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Becoming Skeletal is not the scope, the scope is power. Becoming Skeletal is a side effect that comes with using Manticore poison in their new ritual. And they would use Manticore poison in their new ritual because that would trigger their preordained death right then and effectively become Archliches instead of normal Liches. And we get Skeletal Liches and everyone's happy (explaining it again).

Marzhin said:

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What I'm trying to say is -- the lore is adaptable, and can be changed when necessary. It has happened before, and is likely to happen again. But it needs to be done with the long-term, in-universe consequences in mind.

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Then DO IT?! Come on, please, we want the Skeletal Liches back!

I'm losing my mind here.

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Marzhin said:

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Stevie said:

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@Marzhin, Liches becoming Skeletal is a side effect which they suffer in undergoing a ritual where they consume both Manticore venom and Namtaru venom which is similar to what Moander did. The Scope for them is to achieve immediate Archlichdom by triggering the moment of their death there because of consuming Manticore venom. That's arguably better than being a Lich for up to 100 years and only after it becoming an Archlich.

All that is based on the lore from Moander's bio and the lore from the transition from a Lich to Archlich in Heroes 6.

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The H6 bio says :
An Archlich is given that title when he has continued “living” beyond what his or her physical shell would have normally permitted.

It has nothing to do with becoming a skeleton faster or slower. You become an Archlich when you exceed what should have been your "unaltered" lifespan.

Anyway, I said what I had to say on that topic.

Stevie said:

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Then DO IT?! Come on, please, we want the Skeletal Liches back!

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That's exactly what I've been trying to explain. It's not just about what you want.
True, fans are the ones who buy the game (some of them, at least...)
But we are the ones who will spend 3 or more years working on it every day (and sometimes it includes weekends and nights.)
It's about hopefully finding a good compromise that will please both sides, and will work for the brand as a whole, not just this particular game. Else what's the point?

That said, the topic of fans "wanting" this or that always reminds me of this great quote from Alan Moore:

It’s not the job of the artist to give the audience what the audience wants.  If the audience knew what they needed, then they wouldn’t be the audience.  They would be the artists.

Not that I necessarily think of us as artists, but still something worth mulling over to understand the creators' point of view

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