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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted December 27, 2016 04:26 PM |
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Skeggy said:
dredknight said:
This will render Inferno absolutely unplayable (early game will be very tough with many casualties) due to the sheer reason their units are weak in HP and much of the whole stack is reduced by a single hit.
Doesn't matter if the inferno will be unplayable if that issue can be fixed with different creature health math.
If game behavior, concerning these two examples, isn’t hardcoded, that would really be nice logical improvement that would make this gamemod even more popular.
I dont think removing the 1 unit-slot will make the game better. it will actually reduce the number of tactical decisions in battle.
Actually removing the 1 unit stack creates more issues than fixing such.
If you want to really make that change you need to revamp the whole battle system. One example for new unit battle behavior is to have different speed/initiative for each stack depending on number of creatures in it. This speed/initiative filters will be justified by the formation the units take because of their numbers:
0-10 populations - normal stats (for example 11 init, 6 speed in all directions).
11-20 populations - (6 speed front, 3 speed left/right, 1 speed behind).
20+ populations - (4 speed front, 1 speed all other sides, -1 init penalty due to huge size).
This way mages can bet on small armies that manuever easier while Might heroes can bring big tough armies which are slow due to their size. It will make the game more immersive.
Another idea based on population in army is Moral bonus. When 2 armies fight there will be moral bonus and penalty based on different army strength. If army A is way stronger than army B it will have moral bonus while army B will have moral penalty and so on. Unfortunately those things will require completely new rewritten game from the ground as a lot of the things (spells, units, stats, progression) will take different approach due to the new system specifications.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted December 27, 2016 04:36 PM |
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I have never got any reports about people playing h55 with chaining gameplay. It is not a viable way to play armg maps with regular settings because the pressure on gold is far too high.
In h3 it is much more common, but people choose to play that way by playing the game on maps like jebus with ridiculous amounts of free stuff and trivial neutral resistance. I'm sure VCMI can change the tavern rules but apparantly people want to play like that.
In h55 blocking stacks are already taken into account with very strong neutral resistance, so it is not a cheat it is a necessity to survive on higher difficulty.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 31, 2016 01:43 PM |
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Edited by thGryphn at 13:51, 31 Dec 2016.
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Hey magno,
I'd like to propose some changes for Academy creatures, which I believe would make the faction true-er to itself.
As we know Academy faction is (supposed to be) all about mages, their experiments on living subjects (Gremlins and Rakshasas), their experiments on non-living subjects (Gargoyles, Golems and Giants) and their magical alliances (Djinn).
What feels wrong now is that for some creatures, the creature types currently do not match their back story and lore.
1) Gargoyles: They're correctly described as "statues of flying creatures animated by magic" but in the game, they're "Elemental". I really do not think the type "Elemental" should be used this lightly, and it certainly does not fit the Gargoyles.
2) Djinn: They're described as "ancient elemental spirits" with "magical essence" but they're regarded as "living creatures" by the game. That's categorically wrong. They don't even leave a corpse behind (naturally, because they're magical elemental spirits!).
3) Giants: Although they're also "magically animated" from non-living substance, the game treats them as "living creatures". That's also categorically wrong. Their description is trying too hard to make them into a living being but that's just wrong.
So, what's my proposal?
1) Make Gargoyles, Golems and Giants into mechanical creature type, but rename the type to "Animated".
The major change would be for the Giants. They will receive some benefits - immunity to Poison and Blind (they already are immune to mind control) - but they will lose the feature of being able to be healed or resurrected.
On the other hand, they (along with Gargoyles) can now be repaired by Master Gremlins, or crippled by enemy Gremlin Saboteurs (if they pass the total HP test).
2) To assist in repairing the animated constructs (Gargoyles, Golems and Giants), give all the Mages (Tier 4) the ability "Repair". This only makes sense as the Mages animated them in the first place and should be able to repair them. Overall, I believe this should make up for the loss of healing and resurrection on the Giants.
3) Make the Djinn into the type "Elemental" as this is really what they are. I believe the gained immunities and lost healing/resurrection features are very balanced for this creature, and it would make them even more interesting.
As a side note, "Djinn Vizier" should really be renamed into "Djinn Shah" or "Djinn Malik" because Vizier and Sultan are not equal titles: a Vizier would always be beneath a Sultan.
I hope you give these a serious thought 
Edit: I'd like to include the Phoenix into my proposal... Make them into "Elemental" type, because again that's really what they are, as opposed to living creatures.
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 31, 2016 03:46 PM |
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Edited by Skeggy at 15:47, 31 Dec 2016.
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thGryphn said:
What feels wrong now is that for some creatures, the creature types currently do not match their back story and lore.
Gargoyles, golems and giants (3g’s) are hybrid creatures by default regardless of energy they carry, since they first have to be physically created and then imbued with some energy or connected with some plane.
There's nothing wrong with gargoyles being elemental. They can be elemental even if they are made from stone.
Lore consistency has nothing to do with how some creatures, 3g’s in this instance, are defined.
It’s not only about from what they are made, it’s also about how they are made, or in other words, what makes them move.
For instance:
All gargoyle types can be either elemental or mechanical, it depends what makes them move; is it connection to elemental plains, is it some sort of battery energy so they can have only limited amounts of moves so they don’t need connection with any plane of existence, or is it some sort of hybrid mechanization that allows them to be mechanized and have unlimited moves, but doesn’t necessarily demands fully active connection with other planes of existence. Perhaps that passive connection, not necessarily with other full-fledged planes but perhaps some intertwined border zones is why wizards are so perceptually interesting as a faction.
It is legitimate to assume that Djinns are self-aware so they can connect themselves with every plane they want.
It is also legitimate to assume that 3g’s can also be connected to undead planes of existence. Perhaps that’s the hidden reason for great war between wizards and necromancers? It’s a good reason to create strange maps with strange, yet lore-consistent creatures.
I suppose it would be nice if wizards could have repair ability.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 31, 2016 03:57 PM |
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Djinns fit as elementals just as gargoyles fit as constructs but I'm not sure I agree on the rest. Mechanical titans seems reasonable but that would be a serious nerf to light academy builds. Repairing mages is a good idea but I'm pretty sure that it cannot in any way make up for spammable motw + regeneration/resurrection.
Elemental phoenixes sounds fine but the gameplay would lose some spell combos due to immunity to regeneration, resurrection, raise dead, wasp swarm(and by extension hive) and I think vampirism also? I do believe that they could use the mind immunity but I'm unsure about the rest.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 01, 2017 01:04 PM |
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@thGryphn: this is like the inferno fire immune discussion and the answer is the same: no.
i don't fix things that aren't broken and gameplay wise this is the best setup.
In any case there will not be less than 5 living creatures per non-necro faction otherwise too much gameplay will be lost.
djinns are too fragile for it.
gargoyles don't perfectly fit any type indication, but their stats and abilities are made for elemental.
repair will make master gremlins too important compared to alternate.
Phoenixes will become too much of an annoyance on the adventure map.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 01, 2017 02:33 PM |
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Edited by thGryphn at 14:38, 01 Jan 2017.
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magnomagus said:
@thGryphn: this is like the inferno fire immune discussion and the answer is the same: no.
i don't fix things that aren't broken and gameplay wise this is the best setup.
In any case there will not be less than 5 living creatures per non-necro faction otherwise too much gameplay will be lost.
djinns are too fragile for it.
gargoyles don't perfectly fit any type indication, but their stats and abilities are made for elemental.
repair will make master gremlins too important compared to alternate.
Phoenixes will become too much of an annoyance on the adventure map.
The current gameplay would be completely altered of course for Academy, but not necessarily for the worse. Of course, some creatures like the Djinn (+HP?) and Master Gremlin (-Initiative?) may require some stats changes for rebalancing.
I didn't ask the question then but, is it possible to add "Repair" as a hero spell? If not, it can be given to the Djinn as an ability too.
Yes, it would be quite the change but you can't convince me that it wouldn't be viable after some rethinking of the faction and rebalancing. I argue it would be more interesting than the current Light + Academy builds.
If you don't buy in the idea, of course you won't devote the effort to make it viable. But I certainly understand what you're saying, basically that it's not in the scope of this mod (don't fix it if it ain't broke)
Edit: Phoenix, yeah, the more annoying, the more interesting to fight against. You might increase their experience rating
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 01, 2017 02:50 PM |
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Quote:
the more annoying, the more interesting to fight against.
no that is not how a good strategy game works, units must have strengths and weaknesses, if a unit has an insane initiative and rebirth it must be up for manipulation.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 01, 2017 03:06 PM |
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Edited by thGryphn at 15:09, 01 Jan 2017.
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magnomagus said:
Quote:
the more annoying, the more interesting to fight against.
no that is not how a good strategy game works, units must have strengths and weaknesses, if a unit has an insane initiative and rebirth it must be up for manipulation.
I would certainly agree if Phoenix was a faction creature...
Maybe it's just me but I would like to see the Phoenix as an uber-creature, extremely rare and ultimately formidable. I would even increase its stats from current values. Something like how the Azure Dragon was  Think Tier 8 or 9
Edit: No, I'm not going for a Boss creature like in H6. Not that much at all... but definitely something you wouldn't see regularly on a map, unless explicitly placed by the mapmaker (as part of a storyline, or to guard something precious or a gateway, etc)...
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 01, 2017 05:11 PM |
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I'm not making one creature into a half-baked tier8 feature, if it was possible to my standards I might have gone all the way with NCF, but it is not. So I leave it completely.
Also all my tier 8 creatures would have had strengths and weaknesses.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 01, 2017 08:22 PM |
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Edited by thGryphn at 20:32, 01 Jan 2017.
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magnomagus said:
I'm not making one creature into a half-baked tier8 feature, if it was possible to my standards I might have gone all the way with NCF, but it is not. So I leave it completely.
Also all my tier 8 creatures would have had strengths and weaknesses.
Alright, not gonna insist
I have a totally different question: Is the fact that Empowered spells dealing 50% more damage dealt with by the game engine, or do the xdb files play a role? I'm asking because there might be an inconsistency with Empowered Deep Freeze when you look at the xdb file...
Also related question: are Empowered spells supposed to inflict 50% more damage regardless of the mastery level?
Edit: Looking through the game files, I really think Empowered Deep Freeze is handled differently from other Empowered spells because it also deals damage for a duration of turns, which is equal to 1 + SpellPower. I really think you should take a look at this spell, I think it's not working as you probably think it does
Similar thing with Empowered Stone Spikes... I'm not sure it actually does 50% more damage, as it should. It really needs to be verified...
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 01, 2017 11:26 PM |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 02, 2017 09:23 AM |
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I've tried to tweak values and costs but no luck  Same with mass spells.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 02, 2017 11:07 AM |
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Elvin said:
I've tried to tweak values and costs but no luck Same with mass spells.
Does Empowered Deep Freeze do damage over multiple turns, like the description implies?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 02, 2017 11:14 AM |
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No but it adds a physical vulnerability for a turn so maybe it's related to that.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 02, 2017 05:58 PM |
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted January 02, 2017 08:19 PM |
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 02, 2017 11:11 PM |
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@magno, you got some PMs, last one is important
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted January 03, 2017 05:29 PM |
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 03, 2017 06:05 PM |
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