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Belisarius
Promising
Known Hero
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posted November 05, 2015 08:38 AM |
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I found the answers for TC on the separate tread about it.
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=41876
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MMH5.5 videos
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devilfire
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 06, 2015 11:38 PM |
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Lets discuss Teleport Other as an ability. It have similar purpose as Harpoon Strike, but it also have a poor execution. The idea is pretty good but unusable in its current state.
Few thing to consider when thinking about this ability:
1. It have limited range, which is tied to an very powerful but pretty slow creature`s speed. So the main idea of teleporting important creatures into your army is hardly executed, if at all possible
2. It requires an action, which prevent your most powerful creature from attacking. It have average initiative, so most of the time it won`t act again to utilize their ability themselfs. Most of the important targets have very high initiate and speed, so its frequent that they already acted and are in the middle of your army anyway
3. Its a supportive ability on a combat based creature
4. While they have more health, they are a lot slower than their counterparts. In practice they bring more health in the beginning of the battle, but after that Arch Devils are making up for this with Summon Pit Lords. Also the number of T7 creatures that are avaible in the castles is not high enough to make those 20 more health per creature a significant advantage, considering that you sacrifice 1 speed, 1 initiative and the Summon Pit Lords
All in all a good ability, just unusable in its current iteration.
I have a question which is more about a gameplay philosophy -> when are the stats more important than the abilities ? And most importantly when are they blocking the potencial of good abilities (like Teleport Other and Harpoon Strike for example) ? Do you think its better to have higher stats or to have more interesting and unique ability ?
This discussion is more about the ability Teleport Other, but the Arch Demons are in need of their own discussion mainly because of their weak special.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted November 07, 2015 09:46 AM |
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Good point devfire!
There is a quick fix for this, not sure if applicable.
Just make the Devils auto-hit the teleported target. This will even the odds. It will also push the Might heroes go for Swift bla bla bla (+1 speed) to increase his potential.
I will try to test this later.
Regards,
Jordan
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Nordos
Known Hero
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posted November 07, 2015 11:23 AM |
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AFAIK not possible.
The only way would be to give the Demon an ability like 'Lizard Bite' or 'Pack Hunter', where he attacks that pulled creature when others attack as well. Though he will always attack other creatures when your creatures attack them, not only when pulling them.
I myself, when I modded a bit for fun, made it like this:
Archdemon was the fast creature. Higher Ini, high Speed. He can Teleport across a normal battlefield and teleport, after moving once, any creature on the field (or with tactic, you can port shooters), while the other Arch Devil hits extremly hard (in my case I gave them, after nerfing their stats a little, cleave).
So that you had two different concepts - damage dealer with does not rely on other troops and a fast hitting one which, while having inferior stats, can pull enemies into your camp, making something like shooter an easy target for Pit Fiends.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted November 07, 2015 12:31 PM |
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ldongder
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 07, 2015 01:22 PM |
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@Magno，
Any possibility to demolish the existing buildings and reclaim the resources used to build this building? Sometimes I need the resources more than I need the building.
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devilfire
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 07, 2015 01:54 PM |
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@dredknight good idea, but I also doubt its possible. We sort of have that in game -> Harpoon Strike is making an attack that pull the enemy creature (the pull is pathethic..)
@magno I know that they are tougher, but thats not the point. I want to discuss the current iteration of the ability Teleport Other independing of the Arch Demons. Do you think its working as intended ? Do you think the concept is fully usable in its current form to be worth using ?
If it was on a slow army then it could be okay-ish, but Inferno can blaze across the field and don`t really need it (not to mention its on the wrong creature).
Suggestions:
1. Make it use only 25% of his turn to cast it (if it is completely free it would be even better and actually feel like Teleport Other -> like going on the edge of the battlefield and teleporting a slow creature or your own archer there and diving into the battle on the other side of the battlefield)
2. Make it have really big (or maybe infinite) range, so that it fullfills its role to teleport enemies that cannot be reached.
I believe atleast one of the fixes can be done. Let me know what you think.
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Nordos
Known Hero
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posted November 07, 2015 02:23 PM |
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the second one - since Teleport Others is dependant on its movement range. So, just add some speed to him
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted November 07, 2015 02:25 PM |
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted November 07, 2015 02:50 PM |
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The purpose of harpoon strike is to pull a range attacker in front line if no defender is standing in front of him, in that case it is very effective otherwise pointless.
I have made many good uses of teleport other, that doesn't mean it is a super ability, but it doesn't need to be.
just because some abilities are situational does not mean they need to be changed. The thing that matters is that alternate upgrades are equally strong.
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devilfire
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 07, 2015 03:18 PM |
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@magno -> the purpose of Harpoon Strike is clear, but in reality it is not working. Mostly because the pull is only 1 tile, which is not enough for the slow line up of Fortress to make a difference. Most of Fortress troops will take 2 to 3 turn to reach the other side (without runes, while with runes it will take 1 turn but the pull will not be a factor, the rune will), so with 1 tile or without it won`t really make any difference. If the skill was on a Sylvan for example then it would make a difference because their creatures are fast and something they need just one more tile to reach, which will be covered by the pull.
I don`t want to discuss Arch Demon, only the ability, because potencially it can be given to another creature to utilize better. The only good use now is to pull a creature away from your archers, but then why don`t you just attack it ? Its ok to think about it that way, but the problem is that most of the time the Infernal archers are not their biggest priority, because Succubus Seducer can cast her special even if she is blocked, while Succubus Mistress is a good shooter, but she is going to be almost dead most likely (because the enemy just blocked her and most likely took more than half of her stack), so she won`t be worth sacrificing an powerful attack from a T7 just to unblock her. It can work for Fortress if one fast creature take rune of speed and teleport an important enemy in the middle of your slow army. That way it will be fully utilized.
And the upgrades are not equal. if Arch Devils are able to summon atleast 1 Pit Lord (120 hp) they will catch up for the bonus health of almost 4 Arch Demons, not to mention they can raise more than 1 Pit Lord AND I am not factoring the Pit Lord`s defense. On top of that they have greater speed and greater initiative. But thats for another discussion.
This is why I want to discuss the abilities, as a isolated problem, because while they are situational, the situations that they work are veeery rare, so rare that they feel non existant. The problem lies in that they are in the wrong line ups and the wrong creatures. Teleport Other is very supportive ability (like Channeling, Mana feed, Energy channel etc.) that is property of a creature that is expected to fullfill entirely different role, while Harpoon Strike is offensive supportive ability that is expected to give you just a little distance advantage, which is not enough with the slowest race in Asha.
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Belisarius
Promising
Known Hero
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posted November 07, 2015 03:18 PM |
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Simply comparing stats for Devil's upgrade creatures with lvl7 creatures, one can conclude that they are making-up with their abilities for lack of stats.
Teleport Other ability of Arch Demon was supposedly considered OP in TOE, so their movement speed and initiative was lowered from not-upgraded creature. Now in MMH5.5 there are many more (wonderful) game-play options, so I feel it would not be OP to increase its speed by +2 (or init. +1 with +1 mov.). Using some artifact or skill to additionally increase its speed, Arch Demon ability would become option to bring almost any creature from battlefield to him.(consider that now there are plenty more large battlefields)
My reasoning behind this is that Arch Demons together with their low mov. speed are already under-powered for a lvl7 creature compared to others. (Angels, Dragons, Magma). And they do not currently have anything to compensate for their low speed, except their teleport ability. (like magma has hp). Which on the other hand is not quite often used, mainly because it cannot be used (low speed = low range). Kinda catch 22 situation.
Only have feeling (so far) that Seraph's Divine Vengeance should be somewhat improved. (its kinda weak compared to Archangels resurrect, but also very rarely if anytime at all can its DV inflict more damage than its regular dam.)
While/Or DV casting cost decreased to 12. Their mana pool is 18, so they would cast 3 x Righteous Might or 1 x Righteous Might + 1 x Divine Vengeance.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted November 07, 2015 04:15 PM |
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devfire, Fortress are one of the most mobile races.
With rune of speed nearly anyone can reach the end of the battlefield.
Harpooner upgrade is very strong it has 2-5 damage compared to 2-3.
This is huge difference I have tested it and damage really matters when it comes to stacks that gain big numbers.
Just let it be!
As for Archdevil vs ArchDemon, you do not do the correct comparison.
the Summon health cannot be related anyway to the devil because they are summons. AI does not attack summons (nor do players).
Also if you play with Inferno and use gating in PvP you can be certain that the opponent will have prepared to deal twice or trice any damage against summons. The current classes freely give 2 or 3 such combinations.
Furthermore there is a fourth option given by artifact - Ring of Banishment.
Summons cannot be compared equally to real monsters.
How do you compare Phoenix? Because after it dies you can summon him again - and so on.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted November 07, 2015 05:16 PM |
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devilfire
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 07, 2015 06:01 PM |
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We are losing the point, don`t focus on the comparison between Arch Demon and Arch Devils. Focus on the ability -> What is it supposed to do ? How does it achieve that result ? Does it achieve it at all ? Does it need a change ? Can it be changed ? Those are the questions that I`m asking.
The abilities in the game are limited and I want to see them as useful as they can be. I want your opinion on those abilities alone, not on the creatures that posses them. I know they cannot be reviewed like a separate component, because they can be used only if there are creatures, but thats why I asked, when are we ready to sacrifice a good ability in favor of stats.
Good example of what I`m asking and why I`m asking those questions is Scatter Shot. It was given to the Marksman, which was a good choice, but thats because the ability was reviewed as a separate entity. Now if we review and answer the questions about other abilities like Teleport Other or Harpoon Strike we can find better creatures for them.
Just an example -> Harpoon Strike is underpowered by itself, but because Harpooners have good stats then it is ok to be close to useless. Now that Harpooner got good stats he don`t need any more buffs, but what if other creature that is in need of buff get the Harpoon Strike (maybe with more fitting name), then the ability will still be underpowered, but the new creature may or may not have Harpooner`s stats, which will make it underpowered too.
This lead to other questions -> Does Harpooner need his Harpoon Strike, is it going to hurt him too much if he don`t have it, does harpoon strike fit better with another creature etc.
I want to review the potencial changes. I know Magnomagus don`t want to change the game too much, but sometimes its for the good, like the Scatter Shot example.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted November 07, 2015 07:39 PM |
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Your mindset is not helping you with the abilites you bring up, because harpoon strike/teleport other and summon pit lord are clearly fitted for the creatures currently having them, so if they are not going to move they cannot be discussed without taking the creatures themselves into account.
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devilfire
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 07, 2015 08:05 PM |
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The abilities are fitting, no doubt about that. But the creatures are holding them back. For example 2-5 damage on a T2 creature is pretty good, so the ability can stay like that and the upgrade will be worth it, because you take this creature for their damage.
Now if they had 1-2 damage. the same ability had to be a lot stronger to make the creature worth it.
I`m not saying that Harpooner need to have 1-2 damage, I`m saying that some other creature that have lower damage and its not that good can have a little buffed version of Harpoon Strike.
Harpooner will be absolutely the same if he lose his Harpoon Strike, because the reason to pick the upgrade is his damage, not his special.
On the other hand Skeleton Archer have poor stats, especially compared to Skeleton Warrior. He could have buffed version of this ability with a different, more fitting name. His line up is not that fast, unlike Fortress and they don`t really have any interesting traits.
That was just an example. I guess now is not the right moment to give an examples with undead creatures considering that they got buffed, but it can be any other not that interesting creature in the game.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted November 07, 2015 11:02 PM |
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adriancat
Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
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posted November 08, 2015 12:16 AM |
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Great mod,but still almost unplayable.. game crashes when the last AI player finishes his turn (when the pc loads the last AI player's turn). This crash comes randomly in the game, but when it comes, you can't go further in the game anymore no matter what you do. I've disabled the autosave and still the same result. I am playing the RC3 version  hope you can get a fix for this soon. Thanks!
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted November 08, 2015 12:23 AM |
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