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| Thread: Save Regeneration! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 15, 2015 08:54 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 20:57, 15 May 2015.
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Save Regeneration!
I would like some attention to what I consider the most useless spell in the game. Normally a tier 1 healing spell would be awesome to have, in H6 it was invaluable even. But exactly because it was so broken it was decided that it would heal the top unit only, like the H3 wights and trolls. So what exactly is the point in having such a spell?
- Such a spell only makes sense in earlygame creeping which is disappointing. The game does not have THAT many spells in the first place. In the first week it might save you a few cores, in second week maybe a few elites. By week 3-4 maybe a few champions? Even the H6 version that resurrected units was useless beyond earlygame so this will be even worse.
Regeneration heals pixie for 10 damage. It is super effective!
- This is the kind of spell that suits might heroes more than magic. What more could an earth specialist gain compared to a random might hero? Duration is 3 turns and it only heals the top unit. Maybe increased spellpower duration? Whatever.
- It's not just a poor spell by itself. It is bad compared to stoneskin which means that building an earth-specialized mage guild would be a toss up between getting a good and a bad spell. That's just bad design. Ideally, situational spells should be a LOT better than the all-around useful spells but this is not the case.
Instead of having a so-so early and useless lategame regeneration spell, I would much rather see some rebelancing so that it can in some ways rival stoneskin. How? This doc card has a pretty good idea.
Instead of just hp regeneration, the spell increases the unit's health. That has three benefits:
1) It makes the regeneration aspect more useful since the top unit has more hp to regenerate.
2) It makes it more relevant in midgame, where a mass version might actually be worth casting.
3) It gives it a benefit that stoneskin does not have: It makes it slightly more useful against destructive that naturally bypass your defense.
SAY NO TO USELESS SPELLS! SAVE REGENERATION!
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted May 15, 2015 08:58 PM |
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The devil is in the detail and I don't know it, so I may be way off here.. I just remember that I used to think HoMM 3 equivalent property of cure was useless, while resurrection was OP. Since then I've come to think that the healing aspect of cure is really good and to a degree I'd rather have sacrifice than resurrection.
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Living time backwards
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husham123
Famous Hero
Yes
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posted May 15, 2015 09:03 PM |
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I'm on it.
I just didn't expected such confusion with the spells.
Some useless spells are added sometimes, it's something normal. In each game there has to be a bug, or a mistake, isn't it ?
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What the darn-diddily-doodily did you just say about me, you little witcharooney? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class at Springfield Bible College, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted May 15, 2015 09:12 PM |
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There are so many things that need to be changed. This spell is just a tip of the iceberg. I like the idea of such regeneration - it would be something that would bring some freshness into the old spell of regeneration (I don't remember any spell that increased HP value per unit).
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 15, 2015 09:16 PM |
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I know, I plan to make a thread about spell balance once they have all been revealed. From where I stand, I find earth the weakest school but I'll get into that later.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted May 15, 2015 09:32 PM |
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doesn't the efficiency of this spell depend on the unit? like, say, if units on average has rather high health and they can take some damage i don't see it as useless per se... especially if champion-tiers are as powerful as I've been led to believe.
Why not make it able to resurrect once the hero reach a certain proficiency with earth magic (or gets a perk, whatever floats your boat)? that way it would still be viable for might heroes early while retaining that for those who choose to specialize in it.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 15, 2015 09:34 PM |
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alexine
Known Hero
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posted May 15, 2015 09:36 PM |
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I dont know. Hard to judge because I never play long games. I think it can be a good spell if combined with the super ability that increase hp on units. Of course usable only on the strongest creatures with high hp. But I think it was a nice spell in H5 where it healed the %hp on units. Done like this it cant be overpowered on weak units. Lets say it start with 50% of total unit hp. So it can heal 3 hp on weak unit but 100 hp on strong unit. And it is awesome when you get bigger spellpower and you heal like 200% hp of unit. So every turn you can heal 2 champions if your hero is strong. And it lasts like 3 turns in H5. BuT will it be in number hp or % hp ? I think this is what matter. If it is % then it would make sense to make it restore full units too, not only the top one. What do you think about my proposal ? 
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husham123
Famous Hero
Yes
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posted May 15, 2015 09:38 PM |
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I just want to ask...
Isn't there a First Aid Tent for this ? 
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What the darn-diddily-doodily did you just say about me, you little witcharooney? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class at Springfield Bible College, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 15, 2015 09:43 PM |
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I agree with you that it's a sucky spell, but when that's said, I never felt the point of it was as an early-game spell. Rather, I think it can be useful only when you have creatures with a lot of hit points. Regeneration on your Pixie is indeed pointless, whereas regeneration on your Ancient Behemoth well might be the difference between losing one and not losing one. That doesn't make it a great spell, but it did give it some use in mid-game. When that's said, I support the idea of having it give a secondary effect like a HP increase. I also liked the resurrection ability it had in H5, but obviously that means it has to be higher level.
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What will happen now?
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alexine
Known Hero
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posted May 15, 2015 09:47 PM |
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Yes. And I think this will make sense. It is useless on low level, because this spell does nothing on weak creatures. I suggest to move it on 3rd tier and increase the healing bonus.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 15, 2015 09:48 PM |
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I'd actually be happy if it was level 3 and resurrected units but I doubt that will happen. It is much harder to balance earlygame healing spells.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 15, 2015 10:04 PM |
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Well, I understand the appeal of a healing spell that doesn't resurrect creatures back. I don't think it should change. One other thought I had is that the spell could restore the HP of the top unit to 150% in addition to a percentage bonus to the stack's vitality threshold.
Anyway, as it is, Regeneration feels totally underwhelming. Healing 10-15 hp on cores per turn is just not gonna cut it at any stage of the game.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted May 15, 2015 10:07 PM |
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Basically, as useless as First Aid Tent. Cure, from older, was useful mostly to cleanse some ailments and, maybe, in early game, to heal a tougher unit, because spells such as these have no real purpose on a 10 HP unit, as you said.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted May 15, 2015 10:26 PM |
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Edited by mike80d at 22:27, 15 May 2015.
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Elvin, great idea here. Some of the historically useless spells can be made more interesting with minor tweaks.
Another co-benefit of regeneration (instead of increasing HP, which I like) is randomly removing 1 negative spell per turn from the creature stack. If you're a fan of RNG then it could have a 20% chance to enable the creature a second attack (with very limited movement). There's all sorts of ways to improve a basic spell like Regeneration.
On a side note, I at least found the HOMM5 Hydra regeneration somewhat useful. But that's the only one that comes to mind.
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted May 15, 2015 11:23 PM |
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Nice catch. I didnt even pay attention and when i read Regeneration i thought it's gonna be the same as in H6.
Elvin called Regeneration in H6 broken but i wouldn't agree. Regeneration (and its mass version) were rarely used in the duel setting. I only remember 2 instances: in Inferno army on Breeder (mobile shooter allowed them to activate Regeneration 2 times a turn) to prolong the life of the original stack to save the gated stack (in H6 if the original stacks dies, the Gated ones dies automatically as well) and in Sanctuary to activate it all in the same turn using Trail of Clouds (Kirin's passive). In both cases, players tried to use ways to activate Regeneration more than ones time per turn.
Now granted, in a map setting Regeneration was picked as one of the fist spells. But for me it was a design flaw since quite often you prolong the battle to activate Regeneration to avoid any loses. I'm guessing they are trying to prevent this from happening and they decided not to allow any healing above the top unit.
Just wanted to point out that healing spells are very strong early on, when you use them to avoid losing troops but in final battles they don't shine at all.
Some people might think that this spell might be viable when you put it on the strongest creature. I'd like to dispel those "delusions". Using an active ability has always been a big deal in the series and almost every alternative seems better than the Regeneration in its current form. I'm almost certain that it'd never see play in competitive environment.
Elvins idea seems interesting to me and definitely is a better one than the current version. Alternatively, you can make it work like in H6 (it also resurrects fallen units) but don't make it easily approachable - make it a tier 3-4 spells that require a master/GM ability.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted May 15, 2015 11:34 PM |
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What if
in addition that heals (and revives) the stack, it gets a bonus buff?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted May 15, 2015 11:41 PM |
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H5 regeneration resurrected units, and it worked quite well. It was a % based heal, but a flat HP amount could also work by capping the number of units resurrected.
Only healing the top unit is so useless
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 15, 2015 11:55 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 23:56, 15 May 2015.
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castiel_789
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 16, 2015 02:06 AM |
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I personally am not in favor of revive. Small aoe vs grouped regen become a reflex instead of strategy. Without regen/revive/group (their both novice) you have to think twice before tackling/creeping let say nova casting apprentice.
Since Regen, Poison spray, Agony are all subject to area effect but are of different strength, nerfing it too much might make those spell weak (given their actual rank). Given the actual info on spell not sure how much dispel and the like are common in this game nor area capable.
I think a top stack heal with a decreasing increase to health buff (core 15%, elite 10%, champion 5%) make sense since it is more about appeal than to have everything counter something for me.
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