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| Thread: H7: Salvaging the Broken Wreckage (of Magic Skills) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 29, 2015 03:18 PM |
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I've said it before, but the (7) elemental schools of magic is for me one of the fundamental pillars of what's wrong with H6/7. It has implications on so many different aspects of the game, and they are pretty much all bad. As also discussed previously, I wouldn't mind keeping the elements as subschools to a more narrow set of spell schools - Destructive and what-else we'll call them - but a system that has seven schools that basically all do everything and hence all do the same with only minor twists will never be the foundation of a great game imo.
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What will happen now?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 29, 2015 04:01 PM |
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H3 disagrees on that account.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 29, 2015 04:08 PM |
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What do you mean Elvin? H3's game design in general appears to be fundamentally different from what we have now anyway.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 29, 2015 04:39 PM |
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Alci does not like magic schools that serve more than one function. He disliked the H5 approach.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2015 04:54 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 16:59, 29 Jun 2015.
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What are you even talking about. Heroes 5 magic schools were exactly centered around one function.
And yes, I do agree with Alci to some extent, that magic schools should not be equal in every aspect. But is that really the case here?
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted June 29, 2015 05:41 PM |
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Elvin said:
Alci does not like magic schools that serve more than one function. He disliked the H5 approach.
I don't understand this post lol
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted June 29, 2015 06:15 PM |
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verriker said:
Elvin said:
Alci does not like magic schools that serve more than one function. He disliked the H5 approach.
I don't understand this post lol
Me neither, but I think he meant to say "he disliked the H3 approach"  .
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted June 29, 2015 06:23 PM |
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See? This is why Greece is the current situation, what a mess!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 29, 2015 06:30 PM |
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A cookie for Maurice.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted June 29, 2015 06:32 PM |
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Maurice said:
Me neither, but I think he meant to say "he disliked the H3 approach" .
I still don't follow though, because Heroes 3 doesn't contradict what Alci said, as it doesn't have seven spell schools lol
besides everyone and their mother knows that H3 had an imperfect spell system where Earth is simply the best school, it was one of very few major flaws of the game balance,
ideally it would have been balanced better, and more specialization could have actually improved it (things like putting Town Portal in Water for example)
anyway the main fallacy I am seeing is that Ubisoft say Heroes 7 must have seven schools "because lore says so", even when it is not helping the game, not least because we don't even have all seven elemental factions to distribute the schools properly, so it winds up becoming ass backwards from the start lol
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2015 07:16 PM |
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Verriker, I have a lot of funb with most of your posts, but here you just ASSUME something. You make the assumption that just because H6 WAS crappy with 7 magic schools and H7 may be crappy as well with 7 magic schools, 7 magic schools are crappy.
This is a fundamentally wrong assumption because the magic school stuff ís just as good as ´the surrounding skill system and the way you acquire spells and work with them are.
In the end it doesn't matter how MANY skills you have - magic schools or otherwise -, but you must make sure that they are different enough, so that it has an impact which ones you take.
The other main problem you have to solve is that you must find a way that stacking of magic skills is as effective as the stacking of might skills...
You see, having only a few magic schools has a couple of downsides as well, which you see when you look at HoMM 3 or HoMM 5´: the MIGHT heroes profit as well.
So this is a very complex issue, and HoMM 7 completely misses the mark here, but not because there are 7 magic schools.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted June 29, 2015 07:16 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 19:20, 29 Jun 2015.
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Elvin said:
A cookie for Maurice.
 ... what flavor?
verriker said:
I still don't follow though, because Heroes 3 doesn't contradict what Alci said, as it doesn't have seven spell schools lol
The main issue Alci seems to have is to have spells polarized based on element, rather than on effect / purpose.
In my opinion, though, spellcasting begins with first manipulating the element in question and then finding practical purposes for it, not the other way around. Consider throwing around a Fireball versus throwing a Frost Spike. Even when I know how to fling objects in general through magic, if I only know how to manipulate fire to do my bidding, I can't even begin to conjure a Frost Spike. And that's pretty much a base requirement before I can even throw it at the enemy  .
JollyJoker said:
You see, having only a few magic schools has a couple of downsides as well, which you see when you look at HoMM 3 or HoMM 5´: the MIGHT heroes profit as well.
The main reason the Might hero had so much profit from Magic schools was mainly because of the Mass spells available. Shifting Mass spells to level 3, next to the single spells (instead of replacing those) would have solved some of those issues. A more general problem was the influence of Spell Power, especially with (de)buffs.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2015 08:20 PM |
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Not so. You have the same problem in HoMM 5 where mass spells are given with abilities.
You DO realize - I hope - that the appeal of both H3 and H5 has a lot to do with how picking a skill (ability) vastly changes the magic, right?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 29, 2015 08:40 PM |
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A valid point but yeah, it very much depends on how strong mass spells are and how easy they are to acquire.
The way I see it, we can't have our cake and eat it too. If we are to have 7 schools then we cannot afford to have a magic skill for every single one. If we do then we have to introduce artificial bans, allowing each hero but a few. I'd rather allow a hero to learn as many spells as possible, particularly when the 7 schools force developers to design fewer spells per school. More variety and replayability.
Sadly, magic skills do not stack like might ones. A might hero can stack up on passive skills with just one magic school and be effective but the opposite is not true. In H5 some of my favourite games were with heroes of multiple or unconventional schools because they allowed for creative combinations. Same was true in H3. That's something I'd like to see again.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2015 09:06 PM |
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Well, you won't in H7, the way it looks.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted June 29, 2015 09:20 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Verriker, I have a lot of funb with most of your posts, but here you just ASSUME something. You make the assumption that just because H6 WAS crappy with 7 magic schools and H7 may be crappy as well with 7 magic schools, 7 magic schools are crappy.
This is a fundamentally wrong assumption because the magic school stuff ís just as good as ´the surrounding skill system and the way you acquire spells and work with them are.
In the end it doesn't matter how MANY skills you have - magic schools or otherwise -, but you must make sure that they are different enough, so that it has an impact which ones you take.
not really where I'm coming from (I'm not saying seven schools just suck period, after all Heroes 4 had six schools and I thought that system was great), I am saying seven schools suck in the specific context of the game we have to deal with lol
taking a machete to the spell system and properly cutting it down to four schools would debloat and improve their design the way it is, making each school worthwhile and giving some actual versatility to magic heroes in a simpler way that can be balanced, and tailored to the factions that are actually in the game in a logical way
a way to deal with might heroes would be to ban them from non-faction-specific magic (or high-level magic) and iterate on shatter skills to give them instead, but hey none of this is ever going to happen so yeah why worry about it lol
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2015 09:30 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 21:31, 29 Jun 2015.
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Elvin said:
The way I see it, we can't have our cake and eat it too. If we are to have 7 schools then we cannot afford to have a magic skill for every single one. If we do then we have to introduce artificial bans, allowing each hero but a few. I'd rather allow a hero to learn as many spells as possible, particularly when the 7 schools force developers to design fewer spells per school. More variety and replayability.
And what if I told you that 7 schools and 7 skills could otherwise work, but it does not work for H7 in particular because of the lousy spell distribution and acquisition?
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted June 29, 2015 09:40 PM |
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I'd respond by stating you are not speaking about a homm game. No, with all due respect, I do see reason in having 7 spell schools and their respective skills. But only if we eradicate randomness from the homm formula. Which in turn would most probably lead to further breakdown.
I believe 5 skills for spell learning is the max acceptable amount. That also allows the return of sorcery or other multifaceted magic skills
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2015 09:52 PM |
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Verriker, the game will be not a modicum better with 4 schools, because it makes no sense to pick more than ... one (if you put 14 spells into 4 schools each).
It would only underline the fact that there are no "magic heroes".
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2015 10:04 PM |
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Exactly. Part of the problem is the limited cast point and also the fact that battles progress so fast that you cannot obtain the maximum of efficiency not even from one school.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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