|
| Thread: Are we being reasonable in our expectations of the developers? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
|
posted August 21, 2015 02:35 PM |
|
|
Danny said:
I just don't think it's that much of a tragedy. After all they've written themselves into a corner with Ashan so there is only so much they can do with creature lineups (Academy is practically the same lineup as Heroes 5) which also means it's not easy to come up with new concept for the same units over and over again. There's official concept artwork for the dragon gods now so obviously the dragon units will resemble them, that's the LEAST of the problems with the Dungeon lineup for example.
To me it's a bigger issue is that they are shoehorning units from Heroes 3 into the game only to please fans when they don't really feel being part of the current concept, like Troglodyte or Medusa, but I can get over this and probably still enjoy the game as much as any of the previous Heroes. But it is pandering to fans and yet the fans still find things to be upset about so in the end it makes them look ridiculous, like that dude on the official blog who's posted the same thing about reusing models a hundred times now.
I think i said it before, but that's less of an Ashan problem and more of an Heroes franchise problem. Hell, there were people complaining about the snowing Cabir back then.
The limitations are mostly in your head frankly. There are some like the Leprechaun or the halflings but stuff like dwarves in Nature town and Harpies in dungeon are still possible.
|
|
The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted August 21, 2015 02:55 PM |
|
|
What erks me is with the dungeon trainwreck they still went ahead and made a new model for the crusher and harpy- both were units in h6 and looked fine. How are they more important than blackie?
And if they did answer to this, it would probably be along the lines of "well, we can't have the orcs of the Pao islands looking like the orcs of the sahaar desert! That wouldn't make sense lore wise" 
|
|
Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
|
|
posted August 21, 2015 02:59 PM |
|
|
Stevie said:
They had perfectly good compendium artwork for the Bladedancer which received so much praise it single handedly propelled the Fury lineup into winning the vote
I'll never get what people saw in that brooding ballerina.
|
|
kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
|
|
posted August 21, 2015 03:02 PM |
|
|
Avirosb said:
I'll never get what people saw in that brooding ballerina.
He's dark and brooding, therefore cool!
As if the dark elves weren't enough immature dark bullsnow
|
|
LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
|
|
posted August 21, 2015 03:04 PM |
|
|
|
I would have nothing against reusing models if they were reusing good models and edit them so they look fairly different, take Haven for example, the wolf, legionnaire, crossbowman and horseman models are from h6. But it's getting out of hand with necropolis models, where they decide to use the same old models the community hated and copy-paste them with an half-assed re-texturing or none at all. Then surprise, Dungeon gets the same treatment as Necropolis, if not even worse.
|
|
Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
|
|
posted August 21, 2015 03:23 PM |
|
|
Galaad said:
Yes you are right, they are renegades, lore was used in favor of the possibilty to get Medusae in Dungeon back, which was a sign of good will from the devs on that aspect.
The only thing that limits the lore of Ashan is will of its creators. As seen in this case and new Liches, they can bend the lore to suit fans' demands, the only question is how they want to do it.
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted August 21, 2015 03:39 PM |
|
|
Avirosb said:
I'll never get what people saw in that brooding ballerina.
It's a H5 thing.
____________
|
|
verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
|
|
posted August 21, 2015 03:40 PM |
|
|
Pawek_13 said:
The only thing that limits the lore of Ashan is will of its creators. As seen in this case and new Liches, they can bend the lore to suit fans' demands, the only question is how they want to do it.
something else that should limit it is desire for actual consistency and to not completely contradict itself, but that already went right out the window as early as Heroes 6 lol
____________
|
|
Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
|
|
posted August 21, 2015 03:46 PM |
|
|
verriker said:
Pawek_13 said:
The only thing that limits the lore of Ashan is will of its creators. As seen in this case and new Liches, they can bend the lore to suit fans' demands, the only question is how they want to do it.
something else that should limit it is desire for actual consistency and to not completely contradict itself, but that already went right out the window as early as Heroes 6 lol
Maybe Erwan has some autodestructive tendencies? Who knows...?
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted August 21, 2015 03:56 PM |
|
|
Pawek_13 said:
Maybe Erwan has some autodestructive tendencies? Who knows...?
Didn't you watch any of Erwin's interviews? He said himself somewhere he had not enough control over Ashan during H5 development hence the retcons from H6.
____________
|
|
Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
|
|
posted August 21, 2015 04:24 PM |
|
|
Galaad said:
Didn't you watch any of Erwin's interviews? He said himself somewhere he had not enough control over Ashan during H5 development hence the retcons from H6.
I did watch them but without to much attention. However, now I recall that he said something similar.
|
|
drusain
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted August 22, 2015 02:40 AM |
|
Edited by drusain at 02:43, 22 Aug 2015.
|
I have to say, I've never followed a game where, prior to release date, a large number of the fans have been able to pinpoint one specific person as the cause for a game's regression from its prequel games.
|
|
cleglaw
Famous Hero
|
|
posted August 22, 2015 05:11 PM |
|
Edited by cleglaw at 17:16, 22 Aug 2015.
|
Just for a second, i want you people to forget h7 we have seen so far and imagine that we dont know who will develope h7... what would you be expecting from h7?
Because we want to check ourselves, we should reset our minds and start from zero. First, we should reveal truths and form a core, then think and evolve from it.
So i am starting to state some of them now:
1-Game developement is not an easy task, esspecially when it is about games with long history and large fanbase, and thats why those games are count as "big projects".
As all of us know, 7th game of Heroes, definietly counts as such one.
2-There is no thing such as low budget & big project. Todays gaming industry requires masteries in all kinds of jobs and because the technology level we currently have, noone is capable to master and work on multiple topics at the same time. So there should be a "big dev team" on H7.
3-There are two of 2 type of games: casual & not casual. Generally speaking, "not casual" games are tend to be more complicated then those "casual" games. Without doubt, beign as hybrid of strategy & rpg, heroes games are "not casual" at all:they make you develope towns, armies, heroes, tactics... and those elements are conected to each other, with deep relations. So there goes the 3rd expectation: "a well built complicated game"
4- Games like those dont just grow in one day. So there goes 4th expectation: "a good amount of time for developement"
Tl dr; basic, natural expectations for h7:
a big project that is developed by a big dev team with lots of money & time.
....
Coming back to reality, and as far as i can see, i think we dont have any of those.
So let me ask this question: with these facts given, do we even expect a heroes game at all?
|
|
EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
|
|
posted August 22, 2015 05:36 PM |
|
|
cleglaw said:
Just for a second, i want you people to forget h7 we have seen so far and imagine that we dont know who will develope h7... what would you be expecting from h7?
Because we want to check ourselves, we should reset our minds and start from zero. First, we should reveal truths and form a core, then think and evolve from it.
So i am starting to state some of them now:
1-Game developement is not an easy task, esspecially when it is about games with long history and large fanbase, and thats why those games are count as "big projects".
As all of us know, 7th game of Heroes, definietly counts as such one.
2-There is no thing such as low budget & big project. Todays gaming industry requires masteries in all kinds of jobs and because the technology level we currently have, noone is capable to master and work on multiple topics at the same time. So there should be a "big dev team" on H7.
3-There are two of 2 type of games: casual & not casual. Generally speaking, "not casual" games are tend to be more complicated then those "casual" games. Without doubt, beign as hybrid of strategy & rpg, heroes games are "not casual" at all:they make you develope towns, armies, heroes, tactics... and those elements are conected to each other, with deep relations. So there goes the 3rd expectation: "a well built complicated game"
4- Games like those dont just grow in one day. So there goes 4th expectation: "a good amount of time for developement"
Tl dr; basic, natural expectations for h7:
a big project that is developed by a big dev team with lots of money & time.
....
Coming back to reality, and as far as i can see, i think we dont have any of those.
So let me ask this question: with these facts given, do we even expect a heroes game at all?
This all would be better summed as a question: "Are the developers being reasonable in the fans' expectations of the game?"
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted August 22, 2015 05:44 PM |
|
Edited by Elvin at 18:02, 22 Aug 2015.
|
All I wanted was a game with at least 6 factions, a good skill-magic system, rmg, sim turns, combat replays, enough adventure map locations and amount of unit abilities simular to H5. So.. pretty mixed feelings..
If the skill system and model recycling was done in a more tasteful way I would rate H7 much better. Atm it is rather meh.
Lack of mythological units is also disappointing. Screw snakes, dark elves, mimes and spiders, give me some good stuff pls.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted August 22, 2015 06:17 PM |
|
|
cleglaw said:
Just for a second, i want you people to forget h7 we have seen so far and imagine that we dont know who will develope h7... what would you be expecting from h7?
Well for me, the case was quite simple. When they talked about "going back to the roots" and realizing that H6 was not popular, in my mind that could only mean one thing: They'd use H5 as a base and then work from there. After all, the "roots" of the game for me is the development seen in H1 -> H2 -> H3 -> H5, and while I realize that the transition H3 -> H5 was not quite as smooth as the others, that should be where they started - and then the development should be to fix the flaws of H5.
As such, my expectations were:
1) Factions rooted in H5. (We did get that ...)
2) Skill system rooted in H5 but with changes taking care of problems with Perks and Ultimate Abilities (H5 skill system with non-random perks would be perfect, but anything not centrered in H6's non-random skills would be a good start). (The latter is exactly what we got, so major fail there.)
3) Magic system rooted in H5 but with more spells per school. (Instead we got magic system rooted in H6 but with less spells per school than in H5, so double-fail there.)
4) Dual hero classes like in H3 - this was definitely a major shortcoming in H5. (We did get that, sort of, but this is being killed by the skill system.)
5) Town screens of really high quality. The rest of the graphics is less important for me, but the town screens should be stunning. (Instead we got total overdetailing on the rest of the graphics, and townscreens that generally look like crap, Dungeon and Academy excluded, so big fail there.)
... and then one extra:
6) A proper town portal system, somewhere in-between H3 and H5 (i.e. you can choose town like in H3 but it's level dependant rather than skill like in H5). I know this may seem like an odd specific detail to go into, but for me, this is a make-or-break element of the game, and one of H5's very big shortcomings. (Instead we got a Town Portal system dependant on resources like in H6, but where you can no longer choose destination, which means double-fail.)
These 5+1 things were what I had hoped for - and outside the last one where I didn't get my hopes too high, #1-#5 was also something I expected to see, because in my view that was the only natural way to go after the feedback we gave them on H6. The fact that they pretty much completely failed in #2, #3, #4 (although that can be contributed to failing in #2) and #5 is really unacceptable.
Of course I had wishes for what units to be in the faction, but at the end of the day, that is non-essential. Unit abilities I don't have a strong opinion about. I could wish for better hero specializations than we seem to get, but it's not a game-breaker for me. Re-using models is not a major deal for me, although I'm surprised that they chose to re-use Lich, Vampire and Black Dragon with those being pretty much the most universally hated units in H6 (from what I saw at least). Lore and story-line I don't care for at all, so with that they could do whatever they wanted. More adventure map locations was also something I had expected to see, but that can always be added later, that is of secondary importance.
So on the bottom line, were my expectations reasonable? I think they were, because I expected them to very much take what was already there and focus on polishing the rough parts. Should definitely be manageable with such a good starting point as H5 was.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
jadw8888
Hired Hero
Avenger Ultimate
|
|
posted September 03, 2015 08:14 PM |
|
|
cleglaw said:
Just for a second, i want you people to forget h7 we have seen so far and imagine that we dont know who will develope h7... what would you be expecting from h7?
Because we want to check ourselves, we should reset our minds and start from zero. First, we should reveal truths and form a core, then think and evolve from it.
From Heroes 7, I wanted 6 good factions (I'm glad they voted Sylvan over Dwarves), good skill/racial/combat system that could allow for "usual builds" and lots of imaginitive unusual builds (e.g. Sylvan with dark magic, Academy using might and mini-arties, Yrwanna with Mentoring spamming high level heroes with destructive, etc). Also, a map editor, good mp/hotseat maps, and decent camapaign.
I don't care so much for units being copied from H6 tho the black dragon was a disappointment. Someone in the SC (feidet1) posted a better idea for the black dragon - http://i11.pixs.ru/storage/6/7/0/CHrniydrak_7181228_18520670.jpg. This would be totally epic. But that doesn't break my expectation for a good game - I care more for playability, replayability, and deep strategy.
Sadly, most games today are made to be short-lived and linear so that people will get bored and buy the next game that comes out. Castlevania Lords of Shadow, Duke Nukem Forever, etc. I skipped H6 and will get H7 just for the Sylvan comeback (and the dryads are cute). I hope Ubi listen to feedback and take another look at the skill system - it will be boring if hero builds are limited to "usual builds" or if it becomes a game of "faction x beats faction y / y beats z / z beats x".
|
|
Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
|
|
posted September 03, 2015 09:28 PM |
|
|
jadw8888 said:
http://i11.pixs.ru/storage/6/7/0/CHrniydrak_7181228_18520670.jpg
Not bad a dragon. 
____________
"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted September 03, 2015 09:47 PM |
|
|
Is that a rainbow dragon? Figures, he's in an elven faction.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
|
|
posted September 03, 2015 11:05 PM |
|
|
cleglaw said:
What would you be expecting from h7?
In my most optimistic view, those of someone that would pre-order a game. From a 100% base, I could say:
30% – something pleasantly unexpected.
30% of said game should bring new things, innovation, fixes, new proposals, in short, features I wasn't expecting to see which come as a surprise, a bonus, all that implemented in a very appealing way, features that would corroborate the other 70% expected features, which should grant my will to buy the game themselves.
70% – from expected things. Which is to say:
1. All past factions and at least 1 new (not all at once, this would include expected expansions). To give a number, perhaps 7-8 vanilla factions. I would embrace and welcome redesign of old factions as well. I usually enjoy changes, even when they are dramatic as it happened in H4, although most of us might agree that some of those changes could have been designed better.
2. Possibility of having deeper mechanics, maybe toggling on and off a system of a broader skill system, providing more variables and perks, which would indeed reflect more on game play style either of the player and the hero and the map in question; Or a smaller one, simpler for those who prefer that way.
3. Spell system based more on general effectiveness than filling lore. I would even welcome a system similar to H2, which had no schools.
4. Unique heroes. Not because they can make flowers grow more often than not, but because they are truly one of a kind, even if two of them are of the same class. Let me control my impulses here. This is something I would like, perhaps not what I expect from the upcoming game. Still. Magic and Might heroes differing a bit more from each other, perhaps Might heroes more involved into physical battle, not only disguised as a pseudo-spell caster which spends no mana.
5. More focus on micromanagement of the whole game, much less focus on candy-eye details and arts which one can hardly appreciate. But all things new, a bit of renewed identity. Even I wasn't expecting such reuse of things.
6. Listening more to feedbacks.
7. Entertaining AI.
8. Wasting very little time idle and more time actually playing the game.
9. Better townscreens.
10. Friendlier Map making and RMG.
11. Fair to the point system requirements.
12. Deeper strategies when building the town, preferably if more than few options of strategies could be applied on the same map.
13. Well-structured campaigns.
14. Different layouts for battle maps.
15. Good music.
16. And a portion of things I usually don't bother much, as long as they don't suck or take time when they don't have to, such as cut scenes, stupid and long animations, voice acting, ambiance sounds, illumination, map immersion, overall visuals.
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
|
| |
|
|
