|
| Thread: Beta 2 Wishlist |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted September 04, 2015 03:35 PM |
|
|
a) is a must with c).
Oh... Charge. You may have noticed that Charge is a unit ability. No one would complain if Flanking was an ability of a few units like Charge is.
Which means: you missed the point.
|
|
PROJ
Known Hero
|
|
posted September 04, 2015 04:30 PM |
|
|
JollyJoker said:
a) is a must with c).
Oh... Charge. You may have noticed that Charge is a unit ability. No one would complain if Flanking was an ability of a few units like Charge is.
Which means: you missed the point.
what point?
what's wrong w/flanking be a general thing? why would every unit having charge be bad?
you have to question these kinds of things when you're coming up w/design ideas.
|
|
Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
|
|
posted September 04, 2015 04:46 PM |
|
|
PROJ said:
what point?
what's wrong w/flanking be a general thing? why would every unit having charge be bad?
you have to question these kinds of things when you're coming up w/design ideas.
Then why do we have different classes? What's wrong with having one class for all factions? Why do we have different racial skills? Why it's wrong to have only one for every faction? Why do we have 6 factions? Shouldn't 1 be sufficient? Why do we have more than one MP map? Do we need more than one MP map? Why do we have 8 different units in factions?   
It is one thing to question design ideas, while it is one thing the question the sanity itself... Lol! 
|
|
keldaur
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted September 04, 2015 05:02 PM |
|
Edited by keldaur at 17:06, 04 Sep 2015.
|
Maurice said:
keldaur said:
He is not wrong tho, most balance problems in games are fixed by good map design.
Well, then the only challenge that remains is for the random map generator to keep that in mind, too! 
Random maps will be inherently flawed. Don't know if you are trying to be ironic or hopeful, either way, it's wishful thinking to expect a full balanced experience from the RMG. And that already tells you that to atleast produce enjoyable games they really need to make well the RMG.
____________
|
|
PROJ
Known Hero
|
|
posted September 04, 2015 05:03 PM |
|
Edited by PROJ at 17:04, 04 Sep 2015.
|
Sleeping_Sun said:
PROJ said:
what point?
what's wrong w/flanking be a general thing? why would every unit having charge be bad?
you have to question these kinds of things when you're coming up w/design ideas.
Then why do we have different classes? What's wrong with having one class for all factions? Why do we have different racial skills? Why it's wrong to have only one for every faction? Why do we have 6 factions? Shouldn't 1 be sufficient? Why do we have more than one MP map? Do we need more than one MP map? Why do we have 8 different units in factions?
It is one thing to question design ideas, while it is one thing the question the sanity itself... Lol!
you have those things for asymmetry and therefore variety. flanking is primarily to make the execution portion (ie being able to read future states of the game) more in-depth by making tactical decision making more complicated. Would it make it more heterogeneous to have it only available to certain creatures? yeah. Is it worth the subsequent loss of combat depth? That's a question with no real right answer, but it's important to think about
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted September 04, 2015 05:10 PM |
|
|
keldaur said:
He is not wrong tho, most balance problems in games are fixed by good map design.
No, they aren't. Maybe good map design can prevent balance problems from being an issue on that particular map, but that doesn't fix the balance problem, that's just treating the symptoms. And obviously, treating the symptom can be a help and even a sufficient workaround if developer fails to do their job and provide an actual fix, but that doesn't mean we should be satisfied with that, and it's certainly not a situation we should aim for in advance.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
|
|
posted September 04, 2015 05:47 PM |
|
|
The tactical decisions are not complicated more because of it, since the flanking is condition-less, thus it is always the way to go. It is similar to attacking: if you can attack you will attack; the player won't defend himself till the end of the combat... However, if there were some conditions, only then would complexity manifest itself. The player would have to consider whether it is good to sacrifice something in order to achieve that bonus or not. And then if the player achieves condition only then he should utilize the flanking. It is similar to using an ability/spell of the units/hero: should I use the normal attack of the unit/hero, or should I use an ability of a unit/spell with the hero? The player's decision will certainly have some consequence either positive or negative...
As it is currently implemented, the flanking is similar to placing a hand over hand infinitely in duration. Anyone has an opportunity, and everyone will use it with no consequence, with no danger, and with no thinking.
However, if we add a needle on the top hand, it would make the other player think twice whether to put his hand on the already placed hand (with a needle) or to find a way to remove the needle and then place his/her hand over the other hand. Similarly, with the condition in the way, the player has to choose whether the flanking is a good option or not. The player could then fulfil a condition (do something, sacrifice something, etc.) and flank without any worry instead of flanking as a no-brainer-option and get stabbed in the proces.
Hand stabbed with a needle pic...
|
|
kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
|
|
posted September 04, 2015 06:04 PM |
|
|
ok, I could do without that pic 
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
|
|
EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
|
|
posted September 04, 2015 06:06 PM |
|
|
|
It's too descriptive. Visually, that is.
|
|
cleglaw
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 04, 2015 06:15 PM |
|
|
sorry but its disturbing 
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted September 04, 2015 06:37 PM |
|
|
Mapmakers can design their maps around minor balance issues for a competitive map. Major balance problems must be adressed by the devs.
And yeah, that pic should be left as a link at minimum.
____________
|
|
PROJ
Known Hero
|
|
posted September 04, 2015 06:54 PM |
|
|
Sleeping_Sun said:
The tactical decisions are not complicated more because of it, since the flanking is condition-less, thus it is always the way to go. It is similar to attacking: if you can attack you will attack; the player won't defend himself till the end of the combat... However, if there were some conditions, only then would complexity manifest itself. The player would have to consider whether it is good to sacrifice something in order to achieve that bonus or not. And then if the player achieves condition only then he should utilize the flanking. It is similar to using an ability/spell of the units/hero: should I use the normal attack of the unit/hero, or should I use an ability of a unit/spell with the hero? The player's decision will certainly have some consequence either positive or negative...
what the hell are you going on about? i've already explained a simple scenario where there are opportunity costs incurred for attempting full flanks. go actually read what i've written before you go off on long tangents
|
|
keldaur
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted September 04, 2015 07:00 PM |
|
|
alcibiades said:
keldaur said:
He is not wrong tho, most balance problems in games are fixed by good map design.
No, they aren't. Maybe good map design can prevent balance problems from being an issue on that particular map, but that doesn't fix the balance problem, that's just treating the symptoms. And obviously, treating the symptom can be a help and even a sufficient workaround if developer fails to do their job and provide an actual fix, but that doesn't mean we should be satisfied with that, and it's certainly not a situation we should aim for in advance.
Assymetrical factions/gameplay/objectives can never ever be perfectly balanced. You fix that using maps. Honestly, that's how any game truly achieves balance.
Other thing is if the factions are utterly broken.
____________
|
|
malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
|
|
posted September 04, 2015 08:55 PM |
|
|
They wanna satisfy fan base of Heroes Online - which is a free to play - so the flanking system won t be removed.
Heroes series doesn t deserve this comparaison, and there s no arguable reasons other than profit to defend.
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted September 05, 2015 09:31 PM |
|
Edited by Galaad at 21:33, 05 Sep 2015.
|
Nice wishlist Elvin!
A little of no-brainer complains I have I’d like to add, obviously list is far from being complete ...
- Fix AI battle priorities! Simple examples: I fight against a stack of shooters, I know I can do a very dumb move and send a strong stack to the front exposing him to full range attack. What AI does? Hits a fodder on the back left of the battlefield, behind a rock! Clearly THAT was the threat!
If a stack is surrounded by fodders, it will keep on hitting fodders no matter what! Even if your strong stack is right behind it, ready to backstab! This means AI is literally loosing turns (aka playing for nothing) in a TBS fight!!
I think the AI hero on adventure map could use some help as well, and the town construction too! In hard the AI should go for optimized town construction and still clear his area so he can have good army in sufficient time. In the small map, AI was still weaker than gold mines guarding stacks week 3!!
- Explorer needs a serious buff, I’d rather reduce the bonuses given by abilities and boost hero mvt land points. I don’t approve of the “increase by X” bonus, why not keeping a percentage growth, logistics in h3/h5 had +10%/+20%/+30% per level, very powerful granted but at least you can feel the skill! With the + point per level you gain +3 hero mvt points on AM at Expert level, laughable!! Then again in the old games pathfinding gave a +% mvt points per level in rough terrains, in h7 the penalty is fully removed. … I would really want to be able to feel the logistics feel back when I actually move my hero on the AM.
- When you don’t flank, meaning when you do a positional move of a stack , I suggest to let the player reposition it/having it face towards desired direction, so it makes you avoid to expose your stack’s back or ribs on purpose!! My half-@ssed suggestion on the matter.
- Out of the two tier 1 spells provided by the Library for the MG, I suggest one of them corresponds to the favored magic school.
- I know it has already been mentioned more than once but I guess never too many, Archery is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever seen! Not only the game lacks ammo carts allowing us infinite shooting from the start, but we also get no range penalty as a perk!! I would suggest to simply increase the damage done by range attacking creature by X% or reducing the range penalty as Elvin suggested but not keep it that way.
- Hero specials are still not by level, after repeated complains/SC strawpolls about it for each and every one article on the subject. ...
I would like to bump this topic on the matter, I think it sums up pretty much why hero specials from h5 are largely superior to the ones we get in h7.
- As mentioned by many, Town construction has too many restrictions, I would appreciate Elite and Champion dwellings to be accessible in the built earlier (aka lowering the town level restriction) than what they currently are.
- The UI is a bit evasive, for instance I find it tedious having to clic twice to see my hero spec. First I clic portrait, then skillpizza, it should appear under the stats, there’s even a huge space for it. While leveling-up with these random skills I think it could be appreciable to be able to see what a skill does, ie –Master Warcries gives you “Attention!”, okay, but what is “Attention!”, what does it do? A quick descriptive line added there wouldn’t be too much, as well as for the abilities, could be indicated from which skill it comes from.
- Creature recruitement screen is poor, I bet it would do wonder to showcase 3D models of units as suggested in the screenshots from HERE. Eyecandy I know, but immersion is also part of the game and since we lack gorgeous townscreens we could at least have a nice creatures recruitment screen.
- The music for the AI turns is always the same, I wonder if it is possible to have more variety here? Maybe some “unused material” from the composers is sleeping somewhere?
____________
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted September 06, 2015 07:47 PM |
|
|
Some problematic abilities I have noticed while browsing the blog's skillwheel. It is possible that some may have changed like the stronghold racial.
(#) Paragon's xp bonus should be gained retroactively and the percentages could use a boost. It is barely worth picking the skill at lvl 2 much less later on.
(#) Traveller's luck should give the boost instantly, not at the beginning of the week. Would make it a little more useful.
(#) Rousing speech should probably last 2 turns instead of 3. +15 morale +3 initiative might be a lot for a passive ability.
(#) Blessed words from haven racial gives +20 morale. Too much?
(#) Victorious streak from haven racial is seriously overpowered at 100% morale action.
(#) Evasion at +10 defense is probably too strong. If enemy's attack is higher than your defense that's 50% reduction!!
(#) Air knowledge II adds 20-200 air dmg to gust of wind and 15-150 air dmg to lightning bolt. Way too random.
(#) Chosen of the light gives +5 attack, +5 defense, +10 morale, +10 dmg as an added bonus to light buffs. Seriously op.
(#) Master of magic gives full mastery to spells that have at least novice mastery. Except getting novice magic skills here and there can mess up your build. You also won't have many spells to boost that way, atm it mostly favours academy that has metamagic. It could use a boost or at least not require novice mastery.
(#) Rush as a +1 speed boost that lasts till bloodrage wears off is too much. It should only last first turn.
(#) Might over magic giving 50% magic resistance is lulzworthy. Maybe 15%?
(#) Bloodlust giving triple the amount of bloodrage to morale is also ridiculous.
(#) Air knowledge III giving lightning reflexes the second attack BEFORE enemy retaliation AND with +10 attack (potentially +50% dmg) is totally broken.
(#) Storm lord giving 10-100 dmg is also too random.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted September 06, 2015 08:03 PM |
|
|
Obviously correct on all points except this one, but here you're just plain off if I understand you correctly:
Elvin said:
(#) Master of magic gives full mastery to spells that have at least novice mastery. Except getting novice magic skills here and there can mess up your build. You also won't have many spells to boost that way, atm it mostly favours academy that has metamagic. It could use a boost or at least not require novice mastery.
So, what would you suggest as alternative: It grants Master level in all spells without restrictions? 
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 06, 2015 08:46 PM |
|
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted September 06, 2015 09:06 PM |
|
|
keldaur said:
Random maps will be inherently flawed. Don't know if you are trying to be ironic or hopeful.
I was being ironic. You can't fix a problem by brushing it off on one side; you'll still have to deal with it on another side. In the case of imbalanced skills, ignoring the imbalance there shifts the problem to forcing addition code on the RMG to keep that in mind when creating a map. Why not fix the problem at the source, rather than further down the chain? Yes, random maps will inherently be flawed, so why compound it with problems that you can fix elsewhere?
|
|
Neovius
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted September 07, 2015 12:22 AM |
|
|
Great list, I agree with everything, but something that's missing, which gets discussed a lot here, are the ability restrictions on skills.
How I would make it is that you can level your skill mastery from novice, expert and master without spending a point in any ability. Also you would be able to only have 3 abilities in a skill, then it becomes locked, so you would have to decide if you want 3 novice abilities or 1 novice, 2 expert or 1 in each, etc.
|
| |
|
|
