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| Thread: Choosing main hero among starting heroes for inferno |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Vampire_Rush
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 30, 2015 05:25 PM |
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Choosing main hero among starting heroes for inferno
I've done some small research about this all day, inspired by two topics ( stats and skills and their internals ) that were too long for me to read. This is mostly for my own record but maybe someone will find this interesting as well, and I hope to get some negative feedback from you.
Background: Inferno is mostly good for farming demons. The start is very hard if you can't get enough resources to buy army (efreet week 1 preferred, since you don't want to lose any low-lvl demon material) imps die alot over nothing, gogs are the worst archers in the game and hellhounds need alot of wood and is an unnecessary building until you can farm them. Maretti proposed in some post that one can always start with the hell hound hero to get some hounds in the start and then try to find a decent main hero (someone with offense that can get exp earth and air 99% of the time for example). I prefer playing 160-200% and in poor maps, so at my current skill I don't see how to be able to draft enough heroes to chain and start the slowly accelerating inferno machine.
Imp hero Familiar rush (as a weaker version of shakti rush) works but depends heavily on imp supply first 2 weeks, which can be awful if tavern hero is the gog hero and imp hero start with only one stack. Also after testing today, Ignatius cannot be guaranteed air and earth magic and offense at the same time choosing skills in what I see as "regular" circumstances.
The test:
I put all the demoniacs (don't waste my time with heretics) in a custom made map where they lvled to lvl 23 at once. After some hours of initial testing I made this algorithm and secondary skill order (in descending order):
Until air and earth magic are obtained, take all (bas,adv,exp) magic schools offered and never choose a basic skill over advanced or expert (unless statistically unwise to do so in the meaning of getting air and earth).
Air magic
Earth magic
Offense
Armorer
Resistance
Tactics
Logistics
Wisdom (can be lowest as well)
Intelligence
Leadership
Luck
Water Magic
Fire Magic
Pathfinding
Estates
Scouting
Ballistics
Artillery
Mysticism
Sorcery
Scholar
First Aid
Archery
Learning
Eagle Eye
Navigation
Diplomacy (never take)
____________________________________________________
The result of the test:
Marius although potentially being the best demon farmer often do not get both air and earth magic, and very often do not get offense unless prioritized (which might give no way to speed up the demons from slow with mass haste or mass cure and without wisdom for teleport),
All the heroes apart from the "gold hero" (350 gold/day, basic offense, basic scholar) and "pit hack" (adv offense pit lord specialist) failed in their attempts to getting offense with both mass haste and mass slow in their catalog.
After hours of testing gold hero and pit hack only they seemed to be bulletproof of failing to get both mass haste and slow, as well as between some to all top 8 secondary skills.
Conclusion:
Gold hero seems to be a good candidate for 200% games and pit hack be good for 160% ones on poor maps.
Is there any other argument for main heroes or shouldn't Octavius (gold hero) and Nymus (pit hack) be candidates for main heroes when one chooses for other towns as well?
Edit: Test probably stuck in some big loop, starting scenario over from main menu result in negative results for Octavius and Nymus also.
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted September 30, 2015 08:16 PM |
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So main problem with your tests is skill selection system.
If you pick basic magic schools every time they are offered you are pretty much guaranteed to have all of magic skills you can get on demoniacs, which is fire, earth and air.
Also, skills your heroes get will be randomized to a degree, skilltrees are not the same in every single game. So you need to make multiple tests of the kind and somehow average results.
And then you will likely get a result saying they are very similar.
I would say imp speciality is not good. Octavia is a fine starting hero, Marius is better endgame. Pyre is decent because of logistics, but then again demoniacs get it pretty often.
In short, if you want to do tests, you should think through your methodology. I have seen both octavia and marius getting perfect skills many, many times. And that undermines credibility of your results.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted October 01, 2015 03:24 AM |
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Kicferk said:
If you pick basic magic schools every time they are offered you are pretty much guaranteed to have all of magic skills you can get on demoniacs, which is fire, earth and air.
If table in first post link is correct and I believe I had recently the weird experience of seeing it, Demoniacs can get Water.
Skill_______ Knight__ Overlord Beast___ Demon___ Death __ Ranger__ Barbarian Alchem. Planeswalker
Water Magic_ 4________0________2________1________3________3________0________2________2
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted October 01, 2015 03:46 AM |
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Sorry for that piece of information, you are right.
So the correct version would be: If you pick basic air/earth whenever possible they will get both reasonably often.
Also, magic universities increase your chances of getting both, so such tests are not fully representative of a multiplayer match.
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Vampire_Rush
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 01, 2015 02:01 PM |
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Kicferk said:
So main problem with your tests is skill selection system.
If you pick basic magic schools every time they are offered you are pretty much guaranteed to have all of magic skills you can get on demoniacs, which is fire, earth and air.
Also, skills your heroes get will be randomized to a degree, skilltrees are not the same in every single game. So you need to make multiple tests of the kind and somehow average results.
And then you will likely get a result saying they are very similar.
I would say imp speciality is not good. Octavia is a fine starting hero, Marius is better endgame. Pyre is decent because of logistics, but then again demoniacs get it pretty often.
In short, if you want to do tests, you should think through your methodology. I have seen both octavia and marius getting perfect skills many, many times. And that undermines credibility of your results.
Not to say you are wrong since I guess you're the better player, imp hero can get 75 imps at start and imp dwelling is very common at many templates. With 9 speed on lava and with tactics as starting skill familiars easily take out archers alone without causalties, as well as almost everything with lower speed.
I did restart my scenario over and over for hours, are you saying I need to do so for multiple maps as well? There was different skill trees all the time except for a strange loop for the efreet hero which disappeared after I quit and restarted.
I have problems getting a good start with marius without efreet, and my tests show that without offense as a starting skill, marius and others sometimes get fire, water and earth or fire, water and air and also without offense, which I think is be about as good as the demon speciality for demons. Since I want a fast, good start on poor maps and want guarantee for best magics, Nymus (pit hack) and Octavius seem best. Nymus more often than Octavius get perfect skills. I can't say I proved anything, but it seems so to me.
Kicferk said:
Sorry for that piece of information, you are right.
So the correct version would be: If you pick basic air/earth whenever possible they will get both reasonably often.
Also, magic universities increase your chances of getting both, so such tests are not fully representative of a multiplayer match.
I don't want to rely on getting a conflux with fort before lvl 21, also wouldn't build fort since there is no demon material in conflux.
For demoniacs fire magic has probability 4, earth 3, air 2 and water 1, so I'd say just looking at this shows there is a decent chance to snow up with the wrong skills for the starting hero. Offense in start seem to give good results...
Anyway, thank you for your feedback 
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xlnt
Known Hero
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posted October 01, 2015 04:22 PM |
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Edited by xlnt at 16:26, 01 Oct 2015.
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All Demoniacs are equally good main heroes. Gogs and Magogs are really nice shooters btw. and most battles before the 2 efreets come out are carried with gogs shooting and imps dancing. A book (or some demons - if there is gold for them - the book is cheaper) helps.
I'd always prefer to start with logistics - the battles are the easier to compensate part, movement points are not. So Ignatius would be my 2nd choice.
Advanced Offence is better than Defense week1 - you try to hit and not get hit. That said Defense is really important when you start winning fights with the 2 efreets. Still i'd prefer Nimbus 3rd.
I'd prefer Calh (4-20 Gogs) on 200% if i know the zone has weak guards and Octavia on 200% with stronger guards.
I'd better have +1 speed to my efreets than start with doggies - so Fiona would be my last choice.
So go Pyre and dig in the tavern for someone better.
p.s. one of the game's Greats and a master of the Inferno (also a ToH Emperor) - SaintBG, was using mostly Ignatius for 1st (not necessarily main) hero.
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Vampire_Rush
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 01, 2015 06:45 PM |
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xlnt said:
All Demoniacs are equally good main heroes. Gogs and Magogs are really nice shooters btw. and most battles before the 2 efreets come out are carried with gogs shooting and imps dancing. A book (or some demons - if there is gold for them - the book is cheaper) helps.
I'd always prefer to start with logistics - the battles are the easier to compensate part, movement points are not. So Ignatius would be my 2nd choice.
Advanced Offence is better than Defense week1 - you try to hit and not get hit. That said Defense is really important when you start winning fights with the 2 efreets. Still i'd prefer Nimbus 3rd.
I'd prefer Calh (4-20 Gogs) on 200% if i know the zone has weak guards and Octavia on 200% with stronger guards.
I'd better have +1 speed to my efreets than start with doggies - so Fiona would be my last choice.
So go Pyre and dig in the tavern for someone better.
p.s. one of the game's Greats and a master of the Inferno (also a ToH Emperor) - SaintBG, was using mostly Ignatius for 1st (not necessarily main) hero.
Thank you for your opinion. Even though might be close, I do however think there is differences between starting heroes that determines how many good skills they get. Would you sacrifice the 100% chance of getting earth air and offense with pyre just to start with logistics?
Most of the times I play inferno I find the power of the starting army the most limiting aspect, especially when shut down in underground. Maybe I'm not good enough for making the imps dance properly 
I would really like to see saves where SaintBG start with ignatius if you have any!
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Vampire_Rush
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 02, 2015 11:34 AM |
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Continues testing with Octavius; Result is changing current fact as reliable on getting air and earth. Being offered fire logistics then water, only air magic was offered afterwards. Now testing Nymus to see if still bulletproof.
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Vampire_Rush
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 02, 2015 11:57 AM |
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Test shows Nymus if offered basic resistance at lvl 2, if choosing resistance might not get air magic and if not choosing resistance will not get air magic. Thus I've checked all possibilities for demoniacs with this (reasonable) algorithm; They are never guaranteed air, earth and offense.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted October 02, 2015 01:28 PM |
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Vampire_Rush said:
I've checked all possibilities for demoniacs with this (reasonable) algorithm; They are never guaranteed air, earth and offense.
So what? Give Crag (only three magic schools available and 10 in Offense) Advanced Armorer instead of Advanced Offense and your tests will show he can't be 100% guaranteed Wisdom (I believe you also want it), Air, Earth and Offense, there are just too many variables.
The only things you're guaranteed are 1. you will have the opportunity to learn Wisdom 2. you will have the opportunity to learn at least ONE magic school, both due to exceptions.
What I believe is also guaranteed is that all magic heroes but Necromancers will have the opportunity to learn THREE and only THREE magic schools (that's why they used might exceptions in Elementalists).
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Vampire_Rush
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 02, 2015 09:46 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
Vampire_Rush said:
I've checked all possibilities for demoniacs with this (reasonable) algorithm; They are never guaranteed air, earth and offense.
So what? Give Crag (only three magic schools available and 10 in Offense) Advanced Armorer instead of Advanced Offense and your tests will show he can't be 100% guaranteed Wisdom (I believe you also want it), Air, Earth and Offense, there are just too many variables.
The only things you're guaranteed are 1. you will have the opportunity to learn Wisdom 2. you will have the opportunity to learn at least ONE magic school, both due to exceptions.
What I believe is also guaranteed is that all magic heroes but Necromancers will have the opportunity to learn THREE and only THREE magic schools (that's why they used might exceptions in Elementalists).
Every four lvls since not getting offered magic school a might hero will be offered one. Since crag Hack can't get water, he is guaranteed air and earth if played properly.
Wisdom is not really needed since there is mass haste and slow, it's just good to rule out the chance of getting conflict between it and magic school since wisdom has higher priority and is offered every 6 lvls for might heroes (which means practically everyone is sure of getting it if needed).
Demoniacs among the majority of classes can get all four magic schools if the above is taken into consideration.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted October 04, 2015 12:25 AM |
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Vampire_Rush said:
Since crag Hack can't get water, he is guaranteed air and earth if played properly.
I'm not sure what you mean by that but I've made some tests and all might classes I tested (didn't included Death Nights) failed from time to time to get both Earth and Air.
I've tried to obtain the 7 skills considered top for MP - Logistics, Offense, Armorer, Tactics, Wisdom, Earth and Air in heroes that could get them all and still had a free slot. This impossible for Tower and Rampart so I used their Armorer specialists. I've chosen a magic skill for the eight skill more often then not.
Once I remember I had to refuse Fire with Monere three times in a row and end up just with Earth. What is none the less true is they get the chance to learn two magic skills. Now, if you want a demoniac with Water and Fire that's a totally different matter.
Of course, if by "played properly" you mean look for skill in Witch Huts and Universities and build Magic University in Conflux then they have a much better chance of learning them. But you can also teach Water to Crag or Fire to Kyrre if you want and find the right Witch Hut, so it proves nothing.
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Vampire_Rush
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 04, 2015 10:31 AM |
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bloodsucker said:
Vampire_Rush said:
Since crag Hack can't get water, he is guaranteed air and earth if played properly.
I'm not sure what you mean by that but I've made some tests and all might classes I tested (didn't included Death Nights) failed from time to time to get both Earth and Air.
I've tried to obtain the 7 skills considered top for MP - Logistics, Offense, Armorer, Tactics, Wisdom, Earth and Air in heroes that could get them all and still had a free slot. This impossible for Tower and Rampart so I used their Armorer specialists. I've chosen a magic skill for the eight skill more often then not.
Once I remember I had to refuse Fire with Monere three times in a row and end up just with Earth. What is none the less true is they get the chance to learn two magic skills. Now, if you want a demoniac with Water and Fire that's a totally different matter.
Of course, if by "played properly" you mean look for skill in Witch Huts and Universities and build Magic University in Conflux then they have a much better chance of learning them. But you can also teach Water to Crag or Fire to Kyrre if you want and find the right Witch Hut, so it proves nothing.
Crag will be offered fire water or earth latest at lvl 4. In worst case he gets offered fire. If never choosing basic skills over advance skills at lvl 8 (latest) he will have Expert fire. Then at lvl 12 he will have bas air or earth. Since that is his only skill by the above algorithm he then gets expert air/earth at lvl 15. Then he will be offered basic earth/air at lvl 19. Only way this won't work is if offered wisdom at the same time as supposed to be offered magic school, but that is very rare and can be prevented since lvl 21 is the last last lvl for learning a new skill.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted October 04, 2015 02:10 PM |
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Vampire_Rush said:
Crag will be offered fire water or earth latest at lvl 4. In worst case he gets offered fire. If never choosing basic skills over advance skills at lvl 8 (latest) he will have Expert fire.
At level 8 he will have only Advanced ("if played properly", i.e. if you chose the skills you want when they are presented and you have few slots free) and this makes all the difference in the world, unless you are ok with an hero with 3 magic skills and a lot of random crap in the other slots.
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Vampire_Rush
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 04, 2015 06:57 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
Vampire_Rush said:
Crag will be offered fire water or earth latest at lvl 4. In worst case he gets offered fire. If never choosing basic skills over advance skills at lvl 8 (latest) he will have Expert fire.
At level 8 he will have only Advanced ("if played properly", i.e. if you chose the skills you want when they are presented and you have few slots free) and this makes all the difference in the world, unless you are ok with an hero with 3 magic skills and a lot of random crap in the other slots.
At lvl 2 and 3 choose expert offense and basic or advanced whatever you are offered. Then after lvl 4 you will be able to make expert of offense and of whatever you were offered at lvl 2 or 3. After that you are 100% guaranteed to get advanced fire and expert fire the next 2 lvls (latest at 7 and 8), since that is your only basic skill. In games it's never predictable to get all the good skills, however you can make sure to get earth and air by this method. Also you can check the probabilities for barbarian secondary skills and see that in theory there still is big chance to get many other useful skills.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted October 04, 2015 08:50 PM |
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Vampire_Rush said:
At lvl 2 and 3 choose expert offense and basic or advanced whatever you are offered. Then after lvl 4 you will be able to make expert of offense and of whatever you were offered at lvl 2 or 3. After that you are 100% guaranteed to get advanced fire and expert fire the next 2 lvls (latest at 7 and 8), since that is your only basic skill. In games it's never predictable to get all the good skills, however you can make sure to get earth and air by this method.
So, in leveling for level 2 I got Logistics but I choose Expert Offense, at level 3 I can now chose between Scouting and Eagle Eye or Estates and chose one of those so that I can now pick and evolve any magic school that appears and so on. It looks to me a bad development strategy but the problem is: it doesn't work. Since magic schools only appear every 4 levels and you only need three to get expert, you have to pick from two Basic skills at least twice before level 20 and sometimes you can't get the third magic school. So you screw global development to focus only on magic skills and from time to time even then just to get Fire and Air OR Earth. Is this what you call to play properly?
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Vampire_Rush
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 05, 2015 06:43 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
So, in leveling for level 2 I got Logistics but I choose Expert Offense, at level 3 I can now chose between Scouting and Eagle Eye or Estates and chose one of those so that I can now pick and evolve any magic school that appears and so on. It looks to me a bad development strategy but the problem is: it doesn't work. Since magic schools only appear every 4 levels and you only need three to get expert, you have to pick from two Basic skills at least twice before level 20 and sometimes you can't get the third magic school. So you screw global development to focus only on magic skills and from time to time even then just to get Fire and Air OR Earth. Is this what you call to play properly?
If you read what I wrote in the post you quoted you wouldn't be able to use the arguments I already countered. Let me give you an example:
At lvl 2, if offered logistics go for it.
At lvl 3 do not choose whatever comes up as basic, go for adv log or exp off.
At lvl 4 choose basic fire magic
At lvl 5 choose expert offense or adv/exp log.
At lvl 6 choose exp off or exp log.
at lvl 7 choose advanced fire since this is your only basic skill left, this comes after 3 lvls not 4
At lvl 8 choose expert fire since this is your only skill left, this comes after 1 lvl not 4
At lvl 9 choose the best basic alternative
At lvl 10 choose adv best alt
At lvl 11 choose exp best alt
at lvl 12 choose bas air
at lvl 13 choose adv air - no other skill to go to adv from
at lvl 14 choose exp air - no other skill to upgrade from
at lvl 15 choose the best alt
At lvl 16 choose adv best alt or basic any other skill
At lvl 17 choose adv/exp best or basic any other skill if didnt last lvl
at lvl 18 choose bas earth magic
at lvl 19 choose any skill
at lvl 20 choose any skill
At lvl 21 choose any skill
Looking at example you only get forced to take the best out of 2 random basic skills because of the strategy 3 times (lvl 3, lvl 9 and lvl 15), and this is a worst case scenario since magics can be offered earlier. Also, since lvl 21 is the last lvl to get a new skill, actually example is not right. While upgrading a magic from basic, one can still choose basic armorer for example instead, and then go adv armorer exp armorer and bas earth magic will be offered at lvl 21.
As you can see all 3 magics are easily offered and also know there is rule that say magic is offered at least as often as every four lvls, it can be more often
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted October 06, 2015 10:05 AM |
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I think we told you already that doing so is very inefficient.
What if air magic comes to you when you pick advanced fire? Instead of advancing fire you should pick air. But your system will ignore it.
System that bloodsucker describes is geared towards using this mechanics to its fullest. In truth air and earth are the only magic schools you care about. But you want your hero to be good ayway, with max 1 useless skill. So you slow development of magic school you get at lvl4 to get a better hero.
Also, another thing you miss in your argument is the fact that if you get fire on lvl 4 and have 3 or 4 other skills, there is a good chance that you will get 3 lvl-ups with no fire to pick at all. Then you are guaranteed to get a new magic school.
All in all, main criticism of your system is that it does not reflect what is done in online games. And second criticism is that you don't post detailed results, just your interpretation of them, which is frankly not enough for me to chose Nymus over Marius.
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Vampire_Rush
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 06, 2015 02:43 PM |
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Kicferk said:
I think we told you already that doing so is very inefficient.
What if air magic comes to you when you pick advanced fire? Instead of advancing fire you should pick air. But your system will ignore it.
System that bloodsucker describes is geared towards using this mechanics to its fullest. In truth air and earth are the only magic schools you care about. But you want your hero to be good ayway, with max 1 useless skill. So you slow development of magic school you get at lvl4 to get a better hero.
Also, another thing you miss in your argument is the fact that if you get fire on lvl 4 and have 3 or 4 other skills, there is a good chance that you will get 3 lvl-ups with no fire to pick at all. Then you are guaranteed to get a new magic school.
All in all, main criticism of your system is that it does not reflect what is done in online games. And second criticism is that you don't post detailed results, just your interpretation of them, which is frankly not enough for me to chose Nymus over Marius.
Well now it's useless to debate with various people who don't read the previous replies I made.
1. I only made a worst-case-example for Crag Hack, I see how you confused that since I earlier were talking about "Pit Hack". Also if air magic comes choose air magic and gain four lvls was part of previous strategy. Another part of that strategy was that you don't choose non-magic basic skills over advanced ones.
2. The strategy failed, I earlier wrote that my preliminary results must have got stuck in some loop because very fast I disproved my own theory testing the second time. So actually I proved if playing by that strategy there is no guarantee for getting air and earth anyway. However, there might still be some reasonable strategy to be found if someone tested a more effective way.
3. How are you going to get 7 good skills if you don't get air and earth magic? I often got 7 good skills following my own algorithm. What do you mean with Quote:
So you slow development of magic school you get at lvl4 to get a better hero.
? I'm not saying I'm on the right path here anyway, feel free to enlighten me about Quote:
what reflects on what is being done in online games
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted October 06, 2015 07:00 PM |
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Well, I took notice of some results.
I'm making Crag open a PBox with 150.000 exp so all slots go to Expert. Notice that I'm paying only attention to optimize future development of the hero acording to a preset of prefered skills. As Sal once said "It is possible that expert earth was offered, and then 100% all great players will ignore everything else" and I didn't took notice of any other consideration then: can I still get another chance to get Air/Earth? And: now that I have both wich of the others on the preset can I get?
Fire, Pathfinding and Resistence were the other skills I picked preferably and Tactics the one I most often left behind when facing the possibility of not get the two prefered magic Schools.
1. Offense, Logistics, Air, Wisdom, Earth, Tactics, Resistence, Archery;
2. Offense, Armorer, Air, Wisdom, Fire, Logistics, Tactics, Earth;
3. Offense, Tactics, Earth, Air, Armorer, Logistics, Wisdom, Resistence;
4. Offense, Pathfinding, Air, Wisdom, Tactics, Armorer, Logistics, Earth;
5. Offense, Air, Logistics, Pathfinding, Tactics, Earth, Wisdom, Leadership;
6. Offense, Diplomacy(Nav.), Earth, Wisdom, Scouting, Air, Pathfinding, Tactics;
7. Offense, Armorer, Fire, Air, Logistics, Wisdom, Tactics, Earth;
8. Offense, Artillery, Fire, Armorer, Logistics, Earth, Wisdom, Air;
9. Offense, Logistics, Fire, Earth, Leadership, Air(Wisdom), Scouting;
10. Offense, Tactics, Earth, Wisdom, Pathfinding, Logistics, Armorer (or Fire at level 18), Scouting;
11. Offense, Archery, Fire, Armorer, Earth, Wisdom, Logistics, Leadership;
12. Offense, Diplomacy, Air, Wisdom, Armorer, Earth, Resistence, Logistics;
13. Offense, Logistics, Air, Wisdom, Earth, Pathfinding, Armorer, Fire;
14. Offense, Armorer, Earth, Wisdom, Logistics, Air, Resistence, Tactics;
15. Offense, Earth, Pathfinding, Wisdom, Logistics, Air, Resistence, Tactics;
16. Offense, Resistence, Earth, Wisdom, Tactics, Air, Archery, Fire;
17. Offense, Tactics, Earth, Wisdom, Pathfinding, Air, Logistics, Artillery;
18. Offense, Logistics, Air, Wisdom, Resistence, Earth, Tactics, Luck;
19. Offense, Logistics, Air, Pathfinding, Wisdom, Armorer, Tactics, Earth;
20. Offense, Logistics, Earth, Wisdom, Pathfinding, Tactics, Armorer, Air;
While there is an impressive number of times I could get exactly what I wanted (7), seeing Earth or Air on the last slot doesn't translate the despair of sometimes achieving level 20 with just one of them. I ask myself how many times would someone give up on a particular hero, if other showed more willing to learn both wanted magic schools and something else of value?
Even if most of the times it was possible to get both Air and Earth, there were situations where I couldn't get Air(10,11) and one where I had to trade Wisdom for it at level 18 (9).
Maybe the most flagrant problem here is absense of Armorer in as many cases as 8 cases (1,5,6,9,15,16,17,18)
Now, let me try what was my original permise: even if a barbarian (only 3 magic schools available and 10 in Offense) starts with Advanced Armorer it is impossible to guarantee both Offense, Wisdom and the two desired magic schools (Air/Earth).
1. Armorer, Offense, Fire, Wisdom, Tactics, Air, Logistics, Pathfinding;
2. Armorer, Pathfinding, Earth, Wisdom, Logistics, Offense, Tactics, Air;
3. Armorer, Luck, Air, Wisdom, Offense, Tactics, Earth, Artillery;
4. Armorer, Pathfinding, Earth, Wisdom, Logistics, Tactics, Offense, Air;
5. Armorer, Wisdom, Fire, Tactics, Luck, Earth, Logistics, Offense;
6. Armorer, Offense, Fire, Wisdom, Logistics, Earth, Pathfinding, Air;
7. Armorer, Scouting, Earth, Wisdom, Pathfinding, Air, Logistics, Offense;
8. Armorer, Logistics, Offense, Air, Wisdom, Earth, Artillery, Fire;
9. Armorer, Air, Tactics, Wisdom, Earth, Logistics, Luck, Resistence;
10. Armorer, Offense, Earth, Wisdom, Logistics, Tactics, Air, Pathfinding;
Only ten attempts are too few for signicative results but we see that even if in nine of ten times we got Offense, one time it didn't appeared at all (meaning, without exceptions even skills with 10 can fail to appear). But with all in his favour he gets very acceptable results in most cases, I accept 2, 4, 6, 7, 9 and 10 even if nine is the one without Offense but he also fails on getting Logistics, Air and Earth only once each. I don't like case 8 cause three magic schools (including Fire) and Artillery instead of Tactics or Pathfinding don't make a strong case for a barbarian.
So, obviously Marius can't be trusted to learn all four skills (Offense, Wisdom, Air and Earth), can she? Let's check:
1. Armorer, Artillery, Earth, Wisdom, Tactics, Offense, Logistics, Air;
2. Armorer, Resistence, Air, Logistics, Tactics, Offense, Earth, Wisdom;
3. Armorer, Logistics, Fire, Wisdom, Pathfinding, Earth, Scholar, Water;
4. Armorer, Resistence, Air, Earth, Wisdom, Fire, Logistics, Sorcery;
5. Armorer, Archery, Fire, Tactics, Logistics, Air, Wisdom, Water;
6. Armorer, Wisdom, Artillery, Offense, Earth, Logistics, Tactics, Air;
7. Armorer, Offense, Earth, Wisdom, Artillery, Fire, Logistics, Air;
8. Armorer, Fire, Logistics, Air, Wisdom, Pathfinding, Earth, Offense;
9. Armorer, Logistics, Air, Wisdom, Fire, Leadership, Offense, Earth;
10. Armorer, Tactics, Air, Logistics, Offense, Archery, Wisdom, Earth;
Marius fails to get Offense 3 times, fails to get Air once and Earth twice but get's Logistics everytime (value is 10 same as Offense on Crag but Marius doesn't normally strats with it). Notice also she got Fire six times, once instead of Earth and Twice instead of Air, one of those times I even saved the last slot but got Water.
I would consider she got an accetable set of skill, in all situations where she also got both Air and Earth (1,2,6,7,8,9,10, so 7) but one (4) where she got Sorcery, Fire and Resistence but not Offense or Tactics. Yet, here I fell I have a refection to make.
I know that against a human player Red Orb is extremely predictable if your opponent thinks he has a better army and you are a better spellcaster but at least against AI I would surely be glad to see her evolve like that.
Is Nymus any better?
1. Offense, Resistence, Air, Tactics, Logistics, Wisdom, Earth, Fire;
2. Offense, Sorcery, Air, Archery, Earth, Wisdom, Logistics, Fire;
3. Offense, Tactics, Pathfinding, Air, Logistics, Wisdom, Fire, Earth;
4. Offense, Armorer, Earth, Pathfinding, Tactics, Wisdom, Logistics, Air;
5. Offense, Resistence, Tactics, Wisdom, Armorer, Fire, Logistics, Earth;
6. Offense, Wisdom, Air, Armorer, Luck, Earth, Logistics, Fire;
7. Offense, Wisdom, Earth, Tactics, Logistics, Armorer, Pathfinding, Fire;
8. Offense, Archery, Earth, Logistics, Armorer, Wisdom, Air, Pathfinding;
9. Offense, Tactics, Earth, Wisdom, Armorer, Logistics, Fire, Archery;
10. Offense, Air, Armorer, Tactics, Earth, Logistics, Wisdom, Resistence;
Nymus fails to get Armorer the first three times in a row and after that gets it everytime. Did't got Earth once (3) and Air three times (5,7,9) but also got Logistics everytime. Learned three magic schools four times (1,2,3,6), always Earth, Air and Fire.
At 2 we have a situation that I would like to compare to Marius 4; in both cases we have Earth, Air and Fire but while Marius has Armorer and Resistence Nymus has Offense and Archery, both lacking Tactics. I believe in this case Marius makes a stronger case for himself, even if (as I said before) can be easily neutralized with Red Orb or even Recanter's Cloack.
In conclusion, ending up so many times with three magic schools and Sorcery or Resistence, I think Armorer can be more valauble then Offense for Demoniacs. Just look at the Marius fourth attempt and tell me if with some increase on spellpower (it was only 4 versus 10 attack and 9 deffense...), it wouldn't look like a very resourcefull hero? Besides all that, with demon farming, Marius specialty can become much more usefull then Nymus one.
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