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| Thread: America is corrupted |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Stevie
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 07, 2015 03:22 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 15:23, 07 Nov 2015.
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Kayna, you'll find talking to a plank more fruitful than an exchange of words with artu. Believe me, fred and I tried to reason the facts some time ago on this 9/11 subject, which is completely off-topic for this thread anyway. The youtube videos you speak about were linked, material on termite evidence in the rubble was too, impossibility of jet fuel + office fires to bring down WTC also (first building in the entire history), BBC reporting Building 7 to have fallen before it actually did and their dismissal of the fact with the records being "lost" also, National Geographic allegedly disproving termite being able to cut down steel beams and then debunked also, the motive behind being the "war on terror" and internal homeland safekeeping policies also. You'll be met with an argument from authority ("scientist", "officials", yada yada) and a swift dismissal without any actual rebuttal. But that's ok, seen it before, done this before, you'll just have to accept that some people are official-version-abiding suckers, seeking confirmation for what they believe a priori instead of having a genuinely inquisitive mindset, even if that defies any common sense, eye witness reports, authentic, unbiased and non-interest funded science and precedents which they don't address as legitimate concerns but rather push them at the back of their heads as afterthoughts, if even.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted November 07, 2015 04:00 PM |
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Edited by Kayna at 16:02, 07 Nov 2015.
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artu said:
The methodology of "why not, if it isn't absolutely impossible" itself is mystical.
But I'm not talking about pink elephants appearing out of mid air. I'm talking about a guy that forge steel in a specific shape, fills it with termite and sets it at specific places with weights so they stay in place. I'm surprised I have to repeat you this twice, because you're an intelligent guy, smarter than most here. Do I detect a hint of bias here? An emotion sneaking out of your usually logical mind?
artu said:
There is no evidence supported reason to assume a demolition took place, the existing conspiracies all had been investigated sufficiently.
Of course there's no evidence, considering that the 150 000 tons of steel was already smelted in China and India within a god damn month. You call that investigated sufficiently? Not to mention strange explosions that you can see on some videos as the towers fall. All the metal smelted indicates a lack of desire to even investigate the damn thing.
artu said:
For something like this you must be absolutely desperate, the situation must be hopeless, only to convince the participants, even to begin with.
Not really. It can be done whether they are desperate or not. It is a risky maneuver, I'll grant you that, but not as risky as you assume it to be. In the era of information that we live in, our governments can find the most cock sucking people based on psychological studies, ancestry, things you did, opinions you posted, etc. And a team of 5 guys could've done it, so it's just a matter of finding 5 of those guys along with whatever excuse they would need to access those parts of the building. Add to that a good pay, a greater good excuse, and more importantly, fear of knowing that your life and that of your families will be screwed if you ever open your mouth and voila. Not that hard actually. And no, the government wouldn't lose their "standing", because whatever witness would be dismissed as a conspiracy theorist anyways and dealt with by the government as they see fit.
Not to mention that those terrorists might have been manipulated into doing the act. People can be manipulated rather than convinced to do something willingly. If lowly Montreal cops can do it to me, I'm sure US government officials can do it as well. The US budget for intelligence gathering and manipulation of events with spying is increasing each year.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 07, 2015 04:14 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:45, 07 Nov 2015.
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@Stevie
It is the conspiracy theories that violate any commmon sense and brutally I might add, that's why by this time around 2015, it is only completely clueless and extremely ignorant people like yourself who define such Youtube crap that is all filled with unchecked claims, one-sided interviews instead of live debates and manipulated half-truths as a source of common sense. Fred was mystical on the subject, yes, but at least he explicitly mentioned he is not specifically supporting any of the existing conspiracies, including the non-sense you just listed. And an argument from authority is not when you take the word of actual experts on their subject about the technical details, it's when you namedrop an authority figure without rational relevance, you are not even aware of what logical fallacies you accuse people of, actually consist of. That is the worst kind of ignorance, you are so clueless you mistake it for wisdom.
@Kanya
Kanya as I said, the technical stuff you mention all been answered, in related threads I myself linked a few sites and pdf documents if I remember correctly. But this is so old news, I cant remember the details anymore, it's all chewed-up stuff that can easily be checked out through a 2 hour Google search if you have the time and will. I can't read the same boring documents every time someone watches some Youtube video from 2008. And without proper and credible evidence, the rest of your argument inevitably fails to lay on something solid.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted November 07, 2015 04:28 PM |
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Why don't you just tell your opinion about the smelted steel part? It's a very very important part to me.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 07, 2015 04:41 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:42, 07 Nov 2015.
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You wont probably read the whole thing, just check page 128.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 07, 2015 05:09 PM |
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How did this turn into yet another 9/11 "discussion"?  The original topic is interesting (although old) if people are willing to view it from various angles and not stick to the US like they're unique in that regard - they aren't. But who jet-bombed what is fairly irrelevant at this stage, this is becoming a religious debate of sorts and you won't reach a common ground any time soon.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 07, 2015 05:35 PM |
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A common ground is pretty obvious actually, if you have common sense! Look at the kind of stuff that is proposed as proof of a conspiracy:
The BBC reported the collapse of a building before it actually did.
Now, for argument's sake, let's assume such a thing indeed happened. There are two possibilities in this case:
1- Some US officials responsible for one of the biggest and most sophisticated hoaxes in history decided to inform the reporters of a foreign broadcasting agency about their secret plan, so that they will report it as planned? Why? That's as stupid as taking of your mask and taking a selfie during a bank robbery. What would be the motivation to do such a thing, why should BBC be informed about the collapse before-hand, to make sure they report it properly??!!
2- During the heat of the moment, a building that was definitely just about to collapse was reported as collapsed, it was a mess and the information flow was inaccurate just like it usually is during any catastrophic event.
Now, this is just one example. If you examine the rest (back in the day, I did), you will see they are either technically wrong or they are claims such as the above: In one hand, they assume a perfect hoax of some sort, while on the other hand, the masterminds responsible for that hoax make the most meaningless and idiotic mistakes for no apparent reason whatsoever.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 07, 2015 05:49 PM |
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you can find anything on the internet to either prove or disprove either side of ANY argument, artu.
but, what does your instinct tell you? look at who has profitted, artu. i'm not saying that it's not feasible that the u.s. didn't profit because of what happened after the fact; because that would be possible(and is indeed FACT, in either side of this debate).
what i'm saying is, if someone is able to profit so much on such an attack, then WHAT REASON WOULD THEY HAVE TO STOP IT, OR EVEN TO ORCHESTRATE THE ATTACK THEMSELVES? you have to consider the motivation behind who would profit: a bunch of rag-tag terrorists, or the administration and country who could PROFIT from an invasion of an oil-producing country?
what were the after-effects of the attack? what happened afterward? even if the u.s. DIDN'T have anything to do with the attack, WHY did they invade oil-producing iraq, instead of the then-terrorist-housing afghanistan?
just give that some thought. let it ruminate. drop all the propaganda from either side, and just let that swim around in your brain for awhile.
it's NOT that far-fetched, to think that the u.s. government, or a u.s. agency, could easily have been responsible for 9/11; based on what happened afterward, and who profitted the most. that's just SIMPLE logic.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 07, 2015 05:58 PM |
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fred79 said:
it's NOT that far-fetched, to think that the u.s. government, or a u.s. agency, could easily have been responsible for 9/11; based on what happened afterward, and who profitted the most. that's just SIMPLE logic.
It is also logical to think that US government used the 9/11 to serve its interests -as usual-, not that necessary provoked it. It is an unique US behavior, I let you imagine how conspiracy theories would swarm if Russia invades and put a serious feet in Egypt because the plane bomb.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 07, 2015 06:01 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 18:09, 07 Nov 2015.
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Salamandre said:
It is also logical to think that US government used the 9/11 to serve its interests -as usual-, not that necessary provoked it. It is an unique US behavior, I let you imagine how conspiracy theories would swarm if Russia invades and put a serious feet in Egypt because the plane bomb.
it's not a unique u.s. behavior. it's just that the u.s. "plays nice", and makes sure they have a "reason" to do what they do, whereas russia just says, "oops i accidentally this country"... 
edit: russia, not russian. 
i could see how russia could use that as an excuse to invade egypt, though; sure. they may have learned that you can't just go, "oops i accidentally"... as there is a proper etiquette to these things.
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Salamandre
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Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 07, 2015 06:17 PM |
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Yeah, like debunking phantom AMD.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 07, 2015 06:17 PM |
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Question is, why is this still being discussed, let alone in this thread? For the sake of it, the US government has proven that it has no real scruples about staging something like that at the expense of its own citizens. Such theatros are nothing new, states have been faking incidents or foreign invasions to find an excuse for something for millennia. Does that mean that the government is lying or scheming in every single case? No. Should it be suspected of foul play in every single case? Not necessarily but there's no reason to trust it either. End of story, everything else is fanboy-jutsu, conspiracy or anti-conspiracy. So just drop it.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 07, 2015 06:24 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Question is, why is this still being discussed, let alone in this thread?
because it relates to corruption, obviously; and is a famous case for it. i can understand how 9/11 has been run into the ground, though. but that doesn't mean it should be forgotten, by anyone.
the people who profitted from it, STILL haven't been made to pay for it. the criminals are still free to do as they please. just like every other atrocity where the citizenry stood idly by and let whoever get away with whatever.
that's about corruption, too. corruption isn't just active, but can also passive in nature.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 07, 2015 06:25 PM |
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@fred
You can find support for any opinion on the internet, yes, but some of them are backed up by credible sources, reports, peer viewed research and some of them are not. We've talked about this earlier, for some topics, any opinion is inevitably based on second hand information. You can have a gut feeling about your falsely accused best friend being innocent but you can't have a -very reliable- gut feeling about impersonal issues, things you do not witness first-hand.
It is a well-known fact that the Neo-Cons took advantage of the attack and used it as an excuse to insert their aggressive foreign politics, that is beside the point. Taking political advantage of a situation (that's kind of like their job description, isn't it?) or profit itself is not enough to conclude direct involvement, especially not, if the accusation is this serious and unnecessarily overcomplicated and absurd when it comes to details.
This has nothing to do with listening to propaganda, blind speculation has no end, and there is more than enough evidence and motivation on El Kaide's side to conclude that it was indeed them who was responsible. I have no sufficient reason to assume otherwise.
What can happen, if some document proving, say, CIA was aware of a coming attack but did nothing to prevent or decode it comes in light, I won't be extremely surprised either. But that's different than saying things such as the planes did not exist, there were secret bombs, everybody was in on it etc... And as of now, no such evidence exists.
@Zenofex
The two claims are not symmetrical in probability, they are not even close. Not every speculation about goverments' dark secrets hold the same weight and the existing 9/11 conspiracies are very very far fetched in that regard. Operation Northwoods is not something of this magnitude and eventually, it was rejected.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 07, 2015 06:28 PM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 07, 2015 06:38 PM |
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You didn't just mention conspiracy theories, you also mentioned using BBC and Wikipedia as a reference (which was the specific case in the 9/11 thread) and implied people who don't believe such marginal conspiracy theories also deny there is corruption of any sort in politics and they think everything is just swell. Which was what I replied to.
And you seem to be quite pleased with the latest Wikipedia link.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 07, 2015 06:38 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 18:48, 07 Nov 2015.
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artu said:
But that's different than saying things such as the planes did not exist, there were secret bombs, everybody was in on it etc... And as of now, no such evidence exists.
lol, the planes obviously existed. even conspiracy theorists would have to acknowledge that. i mean, why else would you be able to claim that it was planes and hurr-durr jetfuel that brought the buildings down(there's snowing video footage of the 2nd plane, for pete's sake)? lol, that's asinine. no wonder people who claim it was a conspiracy are looked down on with contempt, if they are claiming that bullsnow. get real, people.
now, in order to get other countries behind the u.s. invasion of iraq, and not just the populace, it would make sense to go all out with the "attack". that, or they could just say, "hey, so-and-so country: you want to get some free oil? here's your chance. get behind us, and you get some."
considering greed and ego, it isn't something that is far-fetched. it wasn't only the u.s. who invaded iraq, artu. remember that.
i think you consider too much of the event being orchestrated(from a "conspiracy theorist" pov), when you consider the opposing argument, artu.
the only real things that would have had to happen to bring the towers down, are these events:
1. airliners to hit the towers. hijacked or otherwise.
2. bombs or other destructive equipment to wrap the building columns.
those two things are ALL that would be needed to orchestrate the towers falling on 9/11. the rest could be interpreted or misinterpreted. i think people assuming so much on either side of the argument, are what makes the divide so wide between them.
edit: i omitted the pentagon attack, because it doesn't relate to my point. i have no opinion on what happened at the pentagon, because there isn't any video footage of the actual attack(that i knew of, thanks artu).
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted November 07, 2015 06:44 PM |
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Edited by Kayna at 18:48, 07 Nov 2015.
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artu said:
You wont probably read the whole thing, just check page 128.
That doesn't answer my question at all. Well, perhaps my question wasn't formulated properly lol. Let me rephrase my question : Why would the US government ship away hundreds of thousand of tons of metal to China, India and other companies to smelt it within a month when a country with the desire to do a proper investigation would've instead transported it somewhere with enough space to properly investigate it, which is a process that would've taken years?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 07, 2015 06:44 PM |
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Edited by artu at 18:50, 07 Nov 2015.
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@fred
You wont need both and the rest, I already replied to.
Btw, I saw a footage of the attack on Pentagon filmed by a street camera.
@kanya
Quote:
Why would the US government ship away hundreds of thousand of tons of metal to China, India and other companies to smelt it within a month when a country with the desire to do a proper investigation would've instead transported it somewhere with enough space to properly investigate it, which would've taken years?
There can be so many reasons for that, economical, it can be cheaper to smelt hundreds of thousands of metal there, why does Apple have factories in China? How does smelting metal in another country effect your opinion of this directly?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 07, 2015 06:45 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 18:54, 07 Nov 2015.
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artu said:
Btw, I saw a footage of the attack on Pentagon filmed by a street camera.
i wasn't aware of that video. just watched it on youtube. thanks for the info.
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