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| Thread: On being objective and subjective | |
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted December 21, 2015 09:41 AM |
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On being objective and subjective
I'll begin with a very obvious issue to me: I often hear people say that they have respect for a singer because he or she sings well, or they have respect for something a famous person did in their life, not necessarily a scientist or leader or inventor, but any public figure. What do they base it on, then ?
To me, it means to acknowledge someone's qualities and treat them accordingly, not really to be their "fan" or admirer, or anything like that, but it seems that it's a relative term.
But can someone deserve respect? Respect feels like a very personal thing that should not be imposed.
Respect must be earned from my point of view, because everyone has an opinion, exactly what I am expressing now... no matter how objective they try to be, there will always be some level of personal preference, unless we are talking about sciences, like maths, physics, chemistry where you can reach a result that if you applied the method correctly, cannot be doubted.
Thoughts for further discussion or elaboration ? 
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Herry
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
100% Devil
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posted December 21, 2015 11:28 AM |
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Edited by Herry at 12:00, 21 Dec 2015.
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To avoid mistakes, let us first view the definition of 'objectivity', precisely the definition of its adjective.
Now, as a personal opinion, I think that humans can not be objective, and this is due to perception. Humans interpret things.
Now, subjectivity is a thing even when it comes to seeing physical things. As an example: Colours don't really exist. They are an illusion. Our brains convert a certain range of the electromagnetic spectrum into colour.
So, that's an example that we see the world subjectively, and we can not do it objectively. And, still, that's only one example out of many.
Another example, although this one is a bit less obvious: Who decided the standpoints of good and bad(outside of things like science)?
Let's take modern art as an example: It is great to people, and at the same time absolutely horrible to others. Or even crimes as an example: Certain crimes make people feel sad and angry to the brink, while not making others even blink.
Human individuality makes it hard, or perhaps impossible for us to be objective. No matter how hard you try to conceal your emotions, or even ignore them, there will always be that every so tiny bit of subjectivity in your reactions and thoughts.
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Elvin
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Endless Revival
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posted December 21, 2015 11:36 AM |
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I disagree about respect having to be earned, that is an arrogant perspective by default. I would rather grant it and leave it up to the person in question to keep it or not.
But as far as contribution(to art, science, society etc) is concerned, I'd say it is more about recognition than respect. If an artist is not to your liking you will be indifferent to his work, doesn't mean you will disrespect him though. And if you do, what does that say about you?
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted December 21, 2015 11:58 AM |
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Elvin, maybe you confuse being polite with respect in this case? I tend to think that respect is something more than simply polite, is that you admire something and show it. For example, shaking someone's hand or removing your hat is a sign of being polite. Respect, imo, is when you add postures, gestures or words in order to emphasis the polite state.
I am a bit worried about the swarm of shortcuts used nowadays, in order to superficially label something and end discussion, like being critical = racist or anti[...], being skeptical = stubborn, being passionate = arrogant and so on. Same for people asking for respect before they earn it.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
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Scourge of God
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posted December 21, 2015 12:18 PM |
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Politeness is a possible form of respect in action imo.
Respect at the very core is simply taking others into account, being respectful is the act of putting that into action. Do mind taking others into account isn't you doing what they wish or desire or being subervient or anything like that, at its simplest it's acknowledging the other (and all that they entail).
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted December 21, 2015 01:11 PM |
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Not only is respect not earned, but it ought to be impossible to take away. i.e. a devious criminal still goes through a process in law and is treated like a person, not reduced to an object to vent feelings of contempt upon. When this rule isn't followed, the first victim is the individual in question, and the second victim is everybody else.
Admiration is earned.
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted December 21, 2015 01:25 PM |
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Semantic games imo. Btw, when you go through process in law, you are considered less than an object.
I think that respect is admiration at present time. Admiration is respect at both present and past time. I admire Nietzsche but hardly will say I respect him, who says that when talking about a long time dead person?
When you do a good job and people congratulate you, you will see "respect" in many comments, but never "admire". Anyway, both "respect" and "admire" testify about an enthusiastic psychological state, would you say you are enthusiast each time you meet a person? You will spend all your time grinning at others.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted December 21, 2015 01:25 PM |
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Well, alright, seems like I ALSO mixed admiration with respect. And I did, being very subjective. Because respect can be admiration. But admiration...has a larger scope.
Admiration earned. But from my POV, my own idea of respect is not the mainstream idea.
As they say in sports, form is temporary, class is permanent.
Respect to me is very subjective, something that I just feel, and I can't describe without it sounding illogical. So I'd better not try. And I can never respect someone I do not know personally, or at least talked to.
So yes, semantics, point of view... I can think of nothing more subjective. Thanks.
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Herry
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
100% Devil
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posted December 21, 2015 01:28 PM |
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Quote:
a devious criminal still goes through a process in law and is treated like a person, not reduced to an object to vent feelings of contempt upon.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but respect is one thing, and human rights is another one, and completely different at that. At least, the way I interpret things.
To me, people I respect are people I help, people I would never let-down or betray them. I can't exactly say the same about a criminal. If you can, congratulations, you are on another league of kindness.
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Svartzorn
Known Hero
Dead struggling with death.
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posted December 21, 2015 01:43 PM |
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I'm just gonna say it seems to me that people abuse subjectivity these days like... a lot.
Specially when it comes to art and politics. Just a product of our western ethos, broken civilization. Prolly one of the answers to the why of the state of things.
Denying objectivity is falling into total chaos.
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Death to the world.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 21, 2015 03:14 PM |
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I try to have real respect for everyone, what they are, how they think and all that. Basic foundation of equality, no one is better than the rest etc.
The ones I look up to, in life are close to me, call it admiration if you like. Now this is something harder, who's mind surprises you intellegtly and there really is something to learn from, always older persons in my case.
Life archiment respect. Now, there is lot of these, who's life constribution can't be overlooked. Classic movie stars, singers, grandparents, historical people.
Some say can't respect until 'these things' are met. But, I personally don't like this kinda of view (for myself). When respect comes from deeds, often the personality is forgotten. What you do is important but it's second to 'what you really are'.
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted December 21, 2015 03:55 PM |
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@Homer Well, I just think what you do is first, who you are is defined by what you do, more this for me than the reverse. Respect for your view anyway. Real respect.
Difference doesn't have to mean fighting, even if I don't share your same views. 
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Elvin
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Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 21, 2015 04:06 PM |
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@Sal
I know what you are saying but I did not mean just being polite. Politeness can be faked, respect is genuine. How it is conveyed, that is up to the individual.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 21, 2015 04:43 PM |
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I think, that respect indeed IS something based on the acknowledgement of certain objective facts.
I also think, that no one has respect for a human, but only for certain aspects of them - position, achievements, performance, work, whatever -, because there is a "but"; for example you don't like something else here or are subjectively no admirer or friend or just don't know enough to make it more than respect.
Respect comes with a distance and is often granted "grudgingly".
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted December 21, 2015 04:50 PM |
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Elvin said:
Politeness can be faked, respect is genuine.
Heh. I used to think the opposite, politeness is faked respect because you have to follow certain social norms. So you are polite because your education teach you to use certain gesture and words when communicating with another person, but you respect or admire this person for what was previously said, on the acknowledgement of certain objective facts.
Because if I meet you for the first time then you say you respect me, then if I ask you "why so?" you will be embarrassed, no objective answer possible. On the other side, you can explain politeness by education, how to behave following social norms.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 21, 2015 05:46 PM |
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I'm whit Elvin on this one, there is no 'correct' way, just how we see thinks/people.
I have heard, I don't respect you unless you do this or be something, for me respect is something different. Don't have any problem whit if somebody does not feel the same, but this is my view of respect.
Can't respect all actions, beliefs and thinking of people but every people deserves my respect as a person still.
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 21, 2015 05:54 PM |
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If anyone deserves it, then this is a serious downgrade of the "respect" value. Finally is worth nothing special, as is granted on a common base. This is the equality nirvana people want to dream about.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 21, 2015 08:06 PM |
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Look, respect is nothing "affectionate" if you get my drift. It's an acknowledgement of a certain stature or quality, but with no love lost (otherwise it would be more like admiration).
Which is what it is: acknowlediging a certain quality, without going overboard because of it.
It's definitely something that has its origin in the reasonable part of our mind.
I mean, take these people who go for a swim when the water is REALLY cold (like ocean in winter); you certainly feel a certain respect for their guts and endurance (and you wouldn't be against having that kind of guts and endurance yourself), but come to think of it, it's also incredibly uncomfortable, they run the risk of getting a nasty cold or worse, they look ridiculous, and it doesn't serve a greater purpose (at least none you can discern).
This is way different from "finding these toughmothers AWESOME" (admiring them) or wanting to be part of that slightly mad gang, just for kicks.
Right?
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