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| Thread: So what could somehow redeem H7? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 16, 2016 08:52 AM |
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So what could somehow redeem H7?
Short of providing sarcastic answers, please have a look at the following and let me know what you think  Obviously the ideas are not mine alone, it's just a compilation. Not mentioning skill system because we already know it is on the way.
- One extra unit per tier should be strongly considered. Current lineups are just lacking, they miss iconic units!! And we already have H6 assets that could be used. Dungeon has manticores and shadow lurkers(just remodel the warmachine), Sylvan has unicorns(hero mount), haven has griffins and glories, stronghold has thunderbirds(needs more remodeling from the cheap H6 phoenix remodel  ), jagwars, gobbos, Necro has.. well.. ghouls, Academy has sphinx(lamasu remodel).. Obviously I'd rather get fresh units but until that happens, we could make do with existing assets(as long as they are of haven remodel quality) and introduce a new gameplay to the factions.
- Alternative upgrades would also work. For instance, introduce a classic golden crusader as the defensive upgrade of the swordmaster. Factions that get one less alternative unit could make up for that with one extra alternative upgrade. No need to have alternative upgrades for everything.
- Improve hero specials! Moving on..
- Possibly introduce one faction-themed ability for some skills. Or move the warmachine abilities from the racial to the warmachine tree of the faction?
- Review and restructure unit abilities! Too many duplicates(like nova, piercing attack etc diluting creature feel and identity), iconic ones missing(like incorporeality for ghosts) and many units having too few or no abilities. Basic archers or walkers completely lacking an ability is BORING! But more importantly, the abilities should give a unit character, unlike what we have right now. And speaking of which, get rid of the upg behemoth's jumping attack, it is freaking ridiculous and looks just as horrible. It would be far preferable to improve the armour reduction of the original ability than copy the H6 leaping attack of the kappa. So awful.. Copying the panther warrior's ability would make a lot more sense.
- Rebalance skills!
- Review starting armies because hiring a second native hero from the tavern makes creeping too easy.
- Review town development! It should be faster and allow more possibilities. Preferably ditch the town levels because as they are they only detract from the experience. Merge the warmachine buildings because there is no real choice between one or the other!
- Improve flanking! Current one is marginally more thought-provoking than a direct attack(being the no-brainer that it is) and requires zero skill to use effectively. The simplest solution would be to make the unit turn to face the first attacker of that combat round. That way units cannot dance around each other to deliver backstabs. Still simple but you'd at least have to consider the direction of the second attack and would leave room for the opponent to block the flanking.
- Add new spells and Improve existing ones!! For instance, chain lightning dealing 50% dmg after each jump is lame. H6 improved the spell by reducing that and it worked so much better, why take a step backwards? Armageddon is not a good spell unless you are playing fortress, academy or have blackies. It just doesn't give a benefit the caster since it does equal damage to both heroes! So why not have it do half dmg to the caster's units or deal increased damage within a limited area of effect like it did in H5? Again, a step back. Stone spikes has good dmg but terrible aoe, making it less useful than fireball and easy to avoid. Why not extend the affected tiles? It affects 5 tiles while fireball affects 9!! Tsunami does too much dmg and affects too many tiles! Regeneration now has too powerful an effect for tier 1 and same is true for heal. So why not move to tier 2 at least? At the very least it would make creeping less easy as you would sacrifice a dwelling for the mage guild and even then it would not be guaranteed. So many other examples if you want a dedicated thread. And actually, we really need some spell differentiation. When playing the unity campaign I realized that all I ever needed to cast were a handful of spells. There was no reason to cast anything else and that's just bad.
- Magic Combinations! Currently spells neither stand out, nor do you have a reason to cast a destructive spell of an element over the other. It would be different if spells could create combos with each other.
- Adventure map movement and exploration revision! Current movement points are just too few, resulting in shorter turns which makes the game annoying. Add a few movement points and double the exploration bonus.
- Allow heroes to write spells they cannot cast in their spellbook! Because of this, heroes need to backtrack to town or shrines to learn something they could not the first time they visited. That's a pointless restriction and one that hurts magic heroes the most. This is not a gameplay design that makes the game richer or more interesting, it only detracts from the fun. The arcane knowledge system may allow you to learn more spells than you would with the original system but it is still subject to this little issue. So let the heroes scribe spells they discover on their journeys keep them greyed out in the spellbook until they can finally meet the requirements to cast them. Win-win situation.
For starters 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 16, 2016 10:26 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 10:54, 16 Mar 2016.
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Just let it die already.
Edit:
I feel compelled to explain myself further. There is no reason to pursue Heroes 7 anymore, it's a dead end. The fact of the matter is that its foundation and its code leave no room for any potential groundbreaking changes. The best thing would be to literally drop the game and start from scratch, again. But that's not gonna happen, and I wholeheartedly hope it won't.
All those changes above which were discussed endlessly are of no use at this point. They will change nothing of substance. The game will still continue to be a frankenstein monster no matter how many patches you apply to it. It's just common sense.
So yea, let it die, sooner rather than later. Unless someone enjoys beating the dead horse until there's nothing left of it, that is.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted March 16, 2016 10:39 AM |
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sorry man, not to be lame or unconstructive, but it's not a sarcastic answer when I say the answer is nothing lol
the game would need a world class AI to begin to be interesting for me, that's the foundation, without that, and with cheap as chips interns who never coded AI before in charge, just please stop trying to make H7 happen lol
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted March 16, 2016 10:51 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 10:52, 16 Mar 2016.
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The size of your list shows how "redeemable" H7 is (that is it isn't). If they did not have the time, money, or care to release anything but a buggy asset flip then they clearly do not have the time, money, or care to make it good.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 16, 2016 11:33 AM |
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I have to concur with the 3 people above me.
It's like a stillborn. You can prod it all you want, but it won't come to life magically, just because you're pulling some artificial supporting strings.
Better go back to the drawing board and toss out anything they piled up on there in the past few games and try to think through about what the spirit of Heroes games really is. Before they get that, they won't be able to create anything but more stillborns.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted March 16, 2016 11:43 AM |
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As others said, H7 is lost cause...
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 16, 2016 11:50 AM |
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I feel so bad for Elvin tho, he's like a greek tragedy. Trying so hard for such an undeserving game, bringing his help to such undeserving people... And we believe ourselves to be fair, realistic and all that, but our answers only serve to deter his motivation.
What a snowed up situations this is.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted March 16, 2016 12:12 PM |
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Stevie said:
I feel so bad for Elvin tho, he's like a greek tragedy. Trying so hard for such an undeserving game, bringing his help to such undeserving people... And we believe ourselves to be fair, realistic and all that, but our answers only serve to deter his motivation.
What a snowed up situations this is.
I mean not to go off topic, I mostly agree, but he can stop at any time if he wants to, I don't think Erwin has a gun to his head lol
you know I really admire your way Elvin, optimism and constructive behaviour can get you much further than me, but honestly for all things there has to come a breaking point where you evaluate whether it's become a bit forced or the writing is on the wall and maybe the time is better spent on another approach,
otherwise if going through the motions again and again when enough is enough it translates from tragedy into comedy very quickly, lol
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted March 16, 2016 01:12 PM |
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Leaving pessimism aside for a moment, i would like to comment on the above proposals a bit.
For me, adding more units in the lineups is an absolute MUST. Not because iconic units are missing, but for customization and replayability's sake. For me alternative upgrades don't cut it. I don't want to have a brown blade dancer or a white Minotaur. I wanna know i can choose a different unit with different playstyle. I want to know there is real difference in my choice and what the enemy chooses. Since the intention is to put all units from Heroes VI into Heroes VI.2 (sorry i meant Heroes 7), i would like to see them as usable instead of just as neutrals in the map, i wanna use as many units as i can and i wanna be able to choose them in my game.
And for that, we need AI. AI in all areas, scalable, and good AI. That can use abilities, will pick up resources lying around, that will use spells during autocombat and so on and so on.
Then, i would add more movement points to heroes as the heroes level up (+1/3 or 5 levels?). Also i would use the idea Jolly Joker said and expand it a bit. I would allow heroes to learn specific spells or passives each time they learn a level of a specific magic school skill. It doesn make sense that since they learned the skill they did not only managed to make their spellcasting stronger but also learned an "iconic" spell of that school. Furthermore if classes still remain after the skill system overhaul i would also allow heroes to learn specific passives or skills. I would for example make warcries learnable this way instead of them having a specific skill tree of their own. There are also many more abilities from Heroes VI from which Heroes VI.2 can take inspiration.
I don't mind the Town screen manage system that much, although i am of the idea that upgrades to units should be made availble only after specific buildings have been build or a town level has been reached, so that you will be forced to play with the basic versions of the units for a bit and then be able to upgrade. This way, whatever abilities come with the upgrade will not affect early game and will also be more appreciated in later game.
Finally, coming to the abilities point. Yes, many units need abilities. Core units need abilities that will be useful mid to late game so that they can remain useful throughout the game. If a unit has no abilities it should cover that with greater status so that it can still hold its own. Agreed on nova and piercing shot. There is a GREAT need of at least 5-6 universal abilities to be added to the game and distributed to the units, from incorporeal that was suggested, to lower ranged damage and so on. Previous heroes game abunt in abilities and can provide great inspiration. Heroes 4/5 even 6 in this regard.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted March 16, 2016 01:22 PM |
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Begin again and let go, I say.
For the damage has been done - a better option would be to start anew. As for all these changes that have been proposed, it could spoil much of the game, in terms of balance, as well as creating more bugs.
Even if somehow a miracle would be accomplished and the game would be polished, this wouldn't return the trust people had for the game. It is as simple as that.
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted March 16, 2016 02:12 PM |
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Yeah I can't get over how terrible the unit variety was done and no major changes are going to change that. It just looks like they had a base unit for each tier and just added a little to one stat, took a little from another, and that was it. No attempt at making units special. I know most people blame the abilities but their stats play an important role too.
Economy in h7 is hardly a challenge. Resource silos left and right and your hero can get it as an ability. Every champion dwelling costs the same in gold and they usually require FIVE of a rare resource...........where is the struggle? Next heroes should go back to the h1,2,4 days with very limited town income, and where choices had to be made.
Town levels suck and honestly, so does the wait creature production is done. Let's go back to the citadel and castle. Or the well. Wells are chill 
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Selpen
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 16, 2016 02:20 PM |
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Edited by Selpen at 14:22, 16 Mar 2016.
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I feel kinda bad for Elvin. His ideas are great, but i doubt that anyone cares about this game anymore. You need money to make things like that.
I agree with one extra unit per tier, improving hero specials, new and unique unit abilities, completely changing skill and spell system.
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted March 16, 2016 03:08 PM |
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Could H7 be redeemed? I don't think so. That is not to say I don't agree with your improvement suggestions, and I admire the determination of both VIPs and developers, but I see little hope of redemption for the game at this point - for many reasons.
Psychology
Heroes 7 leaves a bad taste in the mouth of a lot of players, even for many who never even played the game. That in itself makes the job even harder. You not only need to make up for the past, but to improve it sufficiently. It means that at this point H7 needs to become even better than what would have been acceptable at initial release. I still meet people who won't touch H5 TotE due to the reputation of the vanilla.
Skill
Based on the amount of game-breaking bugs, stability issues and poor optimization I think it is obvious that Limbic is in over their heads with this one. I don't fault them for effort, motivation or desire to succeed - I just don't think they are able to achieve what they want. So from a practical standpoint I don't think it is realistic that they can pull it off. Unfortunately.
Campaign
For a heroes game, H7 is very story focused. Campaigns are scripted and lead you down a specific path. We've already seen that they need to shield the campaigns from certain changes. So for a larger overhaul, you will either create a large separation between the campaign and "normal" maps, or re-work the campaign as well. Both options are undesirable. From that point of view, a standalone expansion would seem like the best solution, but given the two points above you are just as well off making a new game with a new team. Again.
Vision
The last non-specific point I'll mention here is the contradictory vision(s) of Heroes 7. On one hand the game is very focused on the world of Ashan. It influences everything from skills, story, creatures, town design, heroes - basically everything. On the other hand you have a sort of eclecticism from previous games when it comes to the exact same things. At some point it stops being tributes and starts becoming a random pick-and-choose of individual elements without regarding the synergy effect or looking at the big picture.
Bottom line
If your car uses a rock for a wheel, disco balls for lights and cardboard boxes for seats - integrating a cup holder and giving away free driving gloves will not redeem the car. And it might be the case that trying to fix the car will be harder and more costly than just having a different team make a new one from scratch.
(This last part might be slightly sarcastic)
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted March 16, 2016 03:13 PM |
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This thread is perfect example why developers (or any employee of Heroes team) shouldn't even bother to come to this forum.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 16, 2016 03:15 PM |
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dark-whisperer said:
This thread is perfect example why developers (or any employee of Heroes team) shouldn't even bother to come to this forum.
yup. but only because they don't listen anyway.
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted March 16, 2016 03:17 PM |
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Sarcastic maybe, Brukernavn, but quite to the point and accurate.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted March 16, 2016 03:47 PM |
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fred79 said:
dark-whisperer said:
This thread is perfect example why developers (or any employee of Heroes team) shouldn't even bother to come to this forum.
yup. but only because they don't listen anyway.
This is not just about listening to the fans or not, Fred. By now it should be crystal clear that Ubi has been pushing the series towards a direction very different of what the majority of fans here want (different of NWC Heroes as well).
Which shows how the lack of vision goes way further than H7 development. Already since H6 they (Ubi) have been pushing the brand towards one direction...but at the same time, making half-hearted attempts of appealing to the "hardcore" fanbase through the formation of the VIP group (a group they have never truly care for, as it's been stated multiple times by former and current users of said group), the feeble fan votes, and false marketing like going back to the roots and such.
Like JJ says, it's not rocket science. At this point I don't care anymore about this anyway.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 16, 2016 05:00 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
fred79 said:
dark-whisperer said:
This thread is perfect example why developers (or any employee of Heroes team) shouldn't even bother to come to this forum.
yup. but only because they don't listen anyway.
This is not just about listening to the fans or not, Fred. By now it should be crystal clear that Ubi has been pushing the series towards a direction very different of what the majority of fans here want (different of NWC Heroes as well).
i know this. i got the impression from d-w that he didn't approve of our take on things, and didn't understand that nothing we say is taken into account with ubi. if i remember right, he's pro-ubi(anti-fan) anyway, and his post was only to berate us for not trusting in ubi's plans. correct me if i'm wrong, of course.
whereas elvis isn't pro-ubi, but overly positive in the face of disaster. a good quality to have, as long as he is able to benefit from it.
lol, elvin is a water-over-rock kind of guy. i think he'd benefit more from being a "get-the-hell-out, that's-sewage-that's-flowing-over-you" kinda guy. at least, in this case.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 16, 2016 05:10 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 17:26, 16 Mar 2016.
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fred79 said:
whereas elvis isn't pro-ubi, but overly positive in the face of disaster. a good quality to have, as long as he is able to benefit from it.
It's interesting, because inside the context I've yet to see how the game or anyone else in the circle benefited from such a "quality". If it's not much to ask, I'd like some enlightening examples.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 16, 2016 11:22 PM |
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I am well aware of where we stand but there are still people who like the game and I don't see why we shouldn't try to make it better while it is still being developed. Especially when many of the ideas are easy to implement, editing hero movement, spell formulae and hero specials should be a matter of minutes.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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