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| Thread: Level designer of H7 writes |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV |
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Mageus
Hired Hero
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posted May 22, 2016 11:49 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
If you feel that being on a transport circuit with a hero is noring unnecessary micro management, then there is something fundamentally wrong with the game (economy). I mean, what do you think why H7 is so godawfully boring? The game is stripped of "micro-management", and it turn out that the "gameplay" is not that strategic nor tactical on the BF, because those game parts are inadequate.
Actually I do agree caravans are a really good addition to the title : In H3 I would have a few heroes just to tag mills and get a few ressources week after week (and also sometimes to transfer troops up to my main heroe). When trying to play back H3 that single feature repelled me a lot (thankfully the portal is a earth spell and I love earth magic so eventually I get a stronger caravan like for creatures).
Hardcore gamers in H3 would memorize the map completely, use the one stack technique each and every fight for the whole beginning(extremely effective but made weaker in H7 thanks to the morale loss) and know exactly what they needed for their strategy. The game was mostly played before the start button. Heroes just going aimlessly round and round were no part of their skills but just a necessary burden before they thought of caravans.
As for the game being boring ... It is heavily bugged, still crashes and if the ennemy heroes (AI) make really bad mistakes the creeping part on the other hand is far harder than in H5 (only compared on hardest difficulty) which is probably the opposite of what players would want (easier creeping and epic battle vs ennemy heroes). I am pretty confident each of the factors mentionned is a problem to most and an advantage for almost no one. Caravans on the other hand are probably for the better good of every one. And if you disagree I guess a poll may help us (and devs) see what the fans in here think about it.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted May 24, 2016 12:56 PM |
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Edited by natalka at 13:02, 24 May 2016.
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Mageus said:
Hardcore gamers in H3 would memorize the map completely, use the one stack technique each and every fight for the whole beginning(extremely effective but made weaker in H7 thanks to the morale loss) and know exactly what they needed for their strategy. The game was mostly played before the start button. Heroes just going aimlessly round and round were no part of their skills but just a necessary burden before they thought of caravans.
Hardcore h3 players play random maps. Setting up a hero chain on a random map is the fun part. You have to adapt based on enemy and current needs. It is too easy to have caravan and forget. After my last post I had another multiplayer game where I captured computer native town which was 3 days away from main action points. I had to dedicate 3 heroes if I wanted to have the army on the first day(s) of the week. So native town - superb, but so far away - not very much. You can upgrade your "caravan heroes" in h3 too. Firstly, let them ride with your single fastest unit - silver pegasus, dragon fly, royal griffin. If you want even more movement give them tome of air/spellbinder`s hat.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 24, 2016 01:13 PM |
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Cheesiness galore  Reminds me how I had a secondary to carry my necromancy skeletons so that my main had extra movement. Certainly takes skill to set up effective hero chains but sometimes the application is just so cheesy.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted May 24, 2016 01:34 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 13:35, 24 May 2016.
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Elvin said:
Disagree, always found collecting weekly rewards a waste of time. It's just something you repeat every week, in every game.
But that is pretty much true with the whole game except combat...and of course we know what you like most. I mean you mainly make maps were you skip the rest of the game.<S>
Until they can do something (like you suggested) and make the secondary play more interesting, I'd rather keep all that was there.
Guessing here, but I think that was the original intent of weekly-creatures and NOT to have your main fighting them but the secondary heroes. When Q buffed the weekly spawn in his version I think it went the wrong way. If you leave enough troops with your lesser to contend with whatever pops up then your main might be too weak to deal with enemy mains. Seems a difficult balancing problem.IDK
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"Do your own research"
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted May 24, 2016 01:36 PM |
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I can`t get it where is the cheesiness? Upgrading a building in town and buying units only for the reason your heroes could ride on max 2000 movement is a big investment.
This mechanic along with no penalty on terrain if you carry only native troops I found very genious.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 24, 2016 02:42 PM |
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markkur said:
Elvin said:
Disagree, always found collecting weekly rewards a waste of time. It's just something you repeat every week, in every game.
But that is pretty much true with the whole game except combat...and of course we know what you like most. I mean you mainly make maps were you skip the rest of the game.<S>
Ah but you haven't played School of Sorcery. See for yourself if I appreciate the adventure map or not 
natalka said:
I can`t get it where is the cheesiness?
This is all based on exploits and allows further exploits. I am not against the principle but unrestrained chaining can lead to some silly situations.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted May 24, 2016 02:53 PM |
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Elvin said:
This is all based on exploits and allows further exploits. I am not against the principle but unrestrained chaining can lead to some silly situations.
Can you be more specific? I don`t see exploits in chaining or you are for h4 type of movement of army where chaining is impossible.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 24, 2016 03:09 PM |
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The good question would be if the possible cheesy exploits from chaining outnumber and shade the addiction and the fun people get from. This is when you need to rethink a feature, or I don't see such conflict.
Sure some people say here and there "chaining is cheesy" and their opinion is heard while we wait for a more successful proposition, meanwhile people didn't stop playing the game because of it.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 24, 2016 05:18 PM |
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Just a reminder:
Caravans do not, repeat, do NOT make chains unnecessary or impossible (except in H4, but there it's not the caravans, but the fact that all creatures have their own movent allowance).
The only thing Caravans do is making it unnecessary to use Heroes as transporters. It's not even less micro, because you can set Heroes on a preset course as well (the heroes auto-moving at the end of your turns). The only difference is, after delivering, you must send the transporting hero back to the start of the journey.
Repeat: this has nothing to do with getting troops from A to B FAST via hero chain.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted May 24, 2016 09:51 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 01:01, 25 May 2016.
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Elvin said:
markkur said:
Elvin said:
Disagree, always found collecting weekly rewards a waste of time. It's just something you repeat every week, in every game.
But that is pretty much true with the whole game except combat...and of course we know what you like most. I mean you mainly make maps were you skip the rest of the game.<S>
Quote:
Ah but you haven't played School of Sorcery. See for yourself if I appreciate the adventure map or not
I said "I mean you mainly make maps..."
I remember the map but for a few years now your focus has been tournaments .
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"Do your own research"
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted May 25, 2016 12:57 AM |
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I might be moving on the edge of the thread subject, but it was about the development of H7 so I'll give it a go anyway
I love the management aspect of Heroes, and I lamented the reduction of it in H6. It's a wonderful feeling to optimize your every move, to the degree that you fight neutrals with a strong hero followed by a weak hero that has resourcefulness to pick up the resources. In the short run I see this as optimization and not micro management. The main challenge for heroes lies in the scaling of such management with the size of the maps and length of the game. When you start having several heroes wandering around and fighting the optimization above become tedious. But movement upgrades (or snatch) to your fighting heroes reduce the relative daily movement cost of picking up resources, so at some point you'll assign your following heroes to other, more meaningful tasks.
In the beginning visiting that windmill close to your town is very rewarding, but the satisfaction and relative worth of that action decreases with time, and at some point you you'll have a hero living in the town to visit the windmill every week not because you want to, but because you "need" to. That is what I call micro management, or thoughtless management if you will.
Here is where I appreciate caravans. They give you the option to automate the action itself, without removing the thought process and risk evaluation - compared to making something flag-able and auto-collected. It's more risky and less flexible than using a hero, but as a benefit you save time. I don't want to reduce the amount of thinking, but the amount of clicking.
To continue with the windmill example, there could for instance be a town building that allows you to collect weekly resources from one or more nearby map objects, similar to the portal of summoning in H3. The building could come late in the town tree and be somewhat costly, but still worth investing in for me when playing large maps. That would give you the option of automating the action when it becomes tedious.
As a side note: I never liked that daily movement was connected to creature speed. Either have "stamina" or something that determines creature adventure map movement as a separate creature stat, or let the hero movement be independent of the army.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 25, 2016 03:32 AM |
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Brukernavn said:
To continue with the windmill example, there could for instance be a town building that allows you to collect weekly resources from one or more nearby map objects, similar to the portal of summoning in H3. The building could come late in the town tree and be somewhat costly, but still worth investing in for me when playing large maps. That would give you the option of automating the action when it becomes tedious.
That is not a bad idea but IMO H5.5 dealt with this more efficiently:
Windmill said:
The owner of this building offers you a supply contract in return for 1000 gold. If you accept your kingdom will receive any resource it produces automatically at the start of each week.
OK = Sign the Contract (1000 gold)
Cancel = Make one visit only.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted May 25, 2016 04:09 AM |
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Edited by Kimarous at 04:09, 25 May 2016.
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The more I learn about Heroes 5.5, the more I'm thinking of digitally repurchasing TotE in order to play it. Seems like it has taken most of the good post-H5 updates and applied them to the first Ashan instalment - "most" being everything excluding a few aesthetic preferences.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted May 25, 2016 12:05 PM |
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H5.5 is worth it.
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 25, 2016 01:21 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 13:24, 25 May 2016.
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Basically H5.5 is what H7 should have been. I've already said it but for me completely replace graphics to have it NWC style and Heroes is back on tracks.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted May 25, 2016 01:26 PM |
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Edited by natalka at 16:01, 25 May 2016.
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I disagree that caravans don`t reduce thinking. When you have limited number of heroes you have to plan ahead which one will go and play fetch. If you want to gather from several sources imagine how many heroes you will have to assign and at some point you may want not to get all the army because simply you don`t have so many free peons. With caravans this layer of thinking is simply gone.
Windmills and contracts is a big joke for me. The generator/map maker has decided that a windmill is located in a secluded space but with this cheesiness it doesn`t matter anymore. All you have to do is visit the windmill once.
Let me elaborate on this..
One game you will have to assign a hero who will spend 2-3 days to gather all windmills/gardens and the other game 1 day. At one point you will have to think - do I need this hero for chaining or for exploring uncharted land where I may find additional loose resources.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 25, 2016 04:24 PM |
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natalka said:
I disagree that caravans don`t reduce thinking.
Of course they reduce thinking, they were created with that objective. So the question has to be: are we better without that micro management aspect? And I don't think so, concessions in this regard have a price in high level gamming.
This is old tough, 3DO had this snowy atitude too, they deliberatly introduced limitations to AI when developing the Tarnum series so beginners would had their way paved. When you limit a game to flatten his learning curve what you are doing is planning for a short-live game. This may serve Ubi but certainly doesn't serve a twenty years franchise with a stronger fan-base for his 17 years version then for the most recent one.
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