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| Thread: GREED - Machines versus Human-Beings |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 08, 2016 05:50 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 17:53, 08 Jul 2016.
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mvassilev said:
U-6 includes people "marginally attached to the work force" and "part-time for economic reasons".
mvassilev said:
That post is so full of non-sequiturs that I'm having difficulty making sense of it.
There is no leap in logic (on my end) but I admit I did get strangely light hearted for a bit and did not seriously make a lawyers case.
Ok, the go back; Quite simply lets take "part-time". In the past before you were born (not a slam in any form) my communities did not consider part-time work as fully-employed, since no one working part-time could support a household of one, let alone a Family of say 4.
At that time "generally" Part-time work was usually taken by high-school kids working non-school hours (some) college students working to pay their way through college, (lots) housewives working (school-hours) to supplement the family income (lots) or senior citizens supplementing their retirement budgets (some).
My question to you, since you are into Stats...can you find any directly tracking "Full-time jobs" and even better, jobs that reveal employees being a part of the company with retirement benefits and NOT company dictated 401ks where the safety of employee's retirement fund (with increased employee contributions) are put into the Stock-market betting. The last measure will likely not be available but it would be very telling if it were.
My "On-call" is also another telling measure that of course is not likely measured today...if ever. My bringing this up is all about a "symptom". Here's what I mean. Years back, on call was only able to be used on people that were well-paid professionals and for very obvious reasons. i.e. Doctors, which of course could not be absent, "when the baby arrives" etc.
A lesser example would be law-enforcement or a better example would be civil services, like Fire-fighters or emergency rooms. A raging fire or a heart-attack doesn't care about someone's day-off or time-off.
However, as the jobs have disappeared the Employers have gained considerable power and can now generally dictate whatever employment conditions they desire.
The On-Call pizza-delivery person with no benefits is real-world today and I've known a few young-people over the years that had to take these jobs to have anything while they "kept looking".
I'll also give another example of Corporate power today that could NEVER have happened in most companies 20-30 years ago. Take Coke,(the company not the drug. ) I know first hand that a very long term employee had a situation arise when he requested a day-off (not his normal day) to be at a hospital with his wife for a serious operation. Now as it happened he ended up having to work and the excuse was "forgetting his request". Now, things like that happen of course, although I find excuses like that unacceptable...as-in what if his wife died?
However, what is worse, is that he heard later from an insider, higher up in management that basically good-workers were heavily depended upon and with the end-result they had little chance of ever advancing. These folks strategically held in place so to speak and generally will not dare say NO. Now the reason this one incident matters is because it was not one incident but a continuation of the same sort of job requirements...often last minute changes that m/l resulted in "on-call".
Ok, next graph label; "marginally attached to the work force". This <ahem> classification is nothing more than a new and accommodating label for the old meaning of "part-time" by Government number-crunchers looking to paint/re-cast a prettier picture regarding unemployment statistics. Does not this fit in well with "not counting people that can no longer claim unemployment-benefits without any numbers of those that still cannot find work? Both parties use this dishonest dressing of the data.
Haven't you heard economic-gurus from "both sides of the party-aisle" say "they could make numbers say anything?" If I have not even given you grounds to pause and be very cautious, I will never get you to see past party-rhetoric. The reason I have this perspective is in NO way because I am smarter than mvassilev, it is ONLY because I've witnessed the changes I have described first-hand. My experience as an older friend either counts with you or it does not. Most of the time today, I find it doesn't matter to younger folks. I am sometimes surprised at HC by a young mind but most of the time I get labeled and dismissed some way or another.
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Anyway, moving on, unless you want me to clarify something etc., here's a guy talking about America since the 50s. Folks the reason I am posting this is because he talks about the changes in the U.S. from an intelligent perspective.
No one I listen to, would I consider 100% correct but today we are all forced to listen to many to cobble together something that comes closer to Truth and it remains hard as hell. At the very least, his talk is interesting and should cause a healthy debate or more research etc.
Hartmann 2013
To recap. in case some of the things I discuss in this thread seem out of place to the OP, please consider;
1. Employers in the USA today have far more power over workers than in recent history. Unions are nearly non-existent today. Yes, some were corrupt and protected workers were getting too much and had to be tamed but now the older battle of management versus labor has resurfaced but unions are nearly non-existent and are minimized by floods of people coming in for decades now. We have already approached real needs "for workers to organize" in any sort of representation but union-resurgence has been and is crushed. Apparently "Prison-labor" is a growing "work-force" for Multi-nationals. Chain-gangs cleaning-up highways or other state-work is now more and more utilized by...guess who?
2. A full-time job for a man or woman that is able to sustain a family is near death. The middle-class has been gutted. FACT. Most young people I know that do or don't have kids...all are working jobs that pay poorly and offer no benefits...unless it is more profitable to be drawing Government-aid.
3. Finally, if this picture is accurate, then letting Multi-national Corporations, drift around the globe and wreck national economies to continue to dominate political-systems is terrible for poor people globally. Further, to continue to allow their human-replacement technology without any responsibility to what happens in our societies is a national focus directed to serve GREED-international.
The reality of a working person today that strives for a position that remotely resembles the old middle-class has already been greatly damaged and if people refuse to see what I'm talking about or they do agree but still drop-out of the discussion, things will not get better for the economic lower 2/3rds of this nation.
mvassilev, <imvho> you should watch the link and glean what you will from his talk. Don't think for a second what I wrote above covers his talk. because it doesn't. I am at strong-disagreement with him on a very important point but that will not cause me to dismiss his entire talk.
One last comment, I know this post was too long but after seeing your short response I knew my short, too casual post was a serious error on my part and I have you to thank for making the case. Honestly, I am very tired of discussing our nation today and that fact can easily transfer to become a source of shallow discussion; clearly I'm not exempt.
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"Do your own research"
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted July 11, 2016 12:14 AM |
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markkur said:
there are way too many people on this planet and competition is not national any longer it's global.
And this expects, that finally people must start thinking about overpopulation, planning and future, not about buying car, home for credit.
In medieval era most of people had nothing and were property of nobles. This helped to support at least nobles lifestyle.
When there is no nobles, there is no way, that people will live like nobles, just because of law of indestructibility of matter.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 11, 2016 08:15 AM |
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Thank you for making your argument more coherent. But though you've said a lot, I think I'll focus on the central part:Quote:
can you find any directly tracking "Full-time jobs" and even better, jobs that reveal employees being a part of the company with retirement benefits and NOT company dictated 401ks where the safety of employee's retirement fund (with increased employee contributions) are put into the Stock-market betting
Unfortunately the Bureau of Labor Statistics isn't very user-friendly, but I managed to get these two graphs out of it:
labor force, in thousands
part-time labor force, in thousands
In 1968, 13% of the labor force was employed part-time. In 2015, it was 17%. An increase, but hardly a major one.
As for pensions, I've found this, which indicates that traditional pensions have indeed decreased. But in a more mobile labor market where people work for a variety of employers over their career, pensions make less sense. What really matters is total compensation, the value of all benefits, wages, and so on. Unfortunately finding historical data about this has been somewhat difficult, and I've only managed to track down this, which measures the percentage change in compensation compared to the previous year. As you can see, it's been positive at least every year since 2001. Anyway, wages and other benefits are substitutes, so if you choose to increase pensions, you reduce wages, and vice versa, so it's not obvious that the decline with pensions is something to mourn.
Also, in some ways decreasing full-time employment could be a good thing because it's a sign of people being able to support themselves more easily, just as it was progress to move from an 8-hour workday.
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Eccentric Opinion
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 11, 2016 09:34 PM |
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The free market will turn us into machines.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 11, 2016 09:46 PM |
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xerox said:
The free market will turn us into machines.
yep and socialism will cause us to rot from within.
We are in quite a predicament. = /
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted July 12, 2016 03:36 AM |
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Edited by frostysh at 03:44, 12 Jul 2016.
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Hello mister markkur .
I have my little honored (perhaps are too child-like..  ) opinion about the text that you typed.
markkur said:
Many times I have railed against "out of control Technology" on this site. I am an absolute Luddite when it comes to the ever-present insanity of Machines killing the livelihoods of Humans around the world.
This is that I call the Scientific Progress applied into military stuff (like always... huh).
As for me - I am very against about integrating the Advanced Robotic technologies in Army. Why?
Because if the government in some time become an evil government and will say to the Uncle Same Army - "take the all food from a 100 000 000 000 of citizens, we want to them die from starvation", the Army will: ********** "REVOLT!"  .
But if the army is actually this army:
They will say: "COMMAND: Accepted "take the all food from a 100 000 000 000 of us citizens by force", CONFIRMATION: Yes/No?" - so anyone who wants such this technologies in Army is a total MORON.
Imagine the situation: you playing in the "Civilization 3" on the "Sid" difficulty - (yeah, this is the one of the video-games that I cannot beat on the highest difficulty  )
And you choosing which technology you can integrate in your civilization.
As Economists said: "You must calculate the risks in this case".
1) Is this technology will be useful?
2) What this technology will provoke in the society (that is including a health related risks).
3) The future cascade of technologies that this single technology can cause.
4) Unpredictable risks.
I.e. "The Astronomy"
The employing Astronomy means that some "Wonders" and the technology will be obsolete , such as "Stonehenge", and if you do not prepared for this, situation may change in a very sad way for your civilization...
About "out of control". Some peoples lived in the time of Manhattan Project, perhaps your grand-parents or a parents.
Do you think they can stop the government from a developing of this "Project" ?
And know you sitting in the comfort house, with good energy supplying, this is interesting, why do you in such comfort... Perhaps because there a MANY Physicists from the whole Earth who have done a great job.. (and many of them became a US Citizens! )
Of course, this technology has been used for a pity and evil goals, but this by default...  .
markkur said:
I find it strange so many folks in this world believe in "Man-only", speak endlessly on Biology and Evolution and yet cannot seem to come to grips with what GREED is doing to humanity right under their damnit feet.
What Biology, what Evolution O_o. Do you mean the Evolution of the human society or of the human's brain (biology), or about the human intellect?
As for me, the human society become more globalized right with the population on the Earth grows up. Borders "bluring" ,
I.e. a foolish tribe many years ago was a "localized" because they have not railroads, aircraft and HALLELUJAH! The almighty INTERNET .
This is that I calling an Evolution.
And what "greed"? this is sounds like speech from a some religious cult speaker
markkur said:
Worldwide there is a huge shortage of work of all kinds and yet Nations continue to allow Super-Machine-Companies to destroy all types of work/jobs/bread-winning and yet in the same breath - talk about their low-life populations wanting to live on welfare and being lazy etc. etc. on and on. The most potent assaults on the average person's outlook and well-being today is "Misdirection & Propaganda".
Fact: I worked in the Manufacturing sector for 35 years of my life...working my way up from grunt-jobs. Then, we called it "paying your dues" and nearly all workers expected and respected it. Well guess what folks? Last year Robots were introduced into Companies as "Security-Guards" and God knows what else had been added to an already enormous list.
I think this is not a problem for a civilization like a Uncle Sam, in general EnergyZ ( about Gutenberg Printer hell machine ), and the Zenofex (Sierra Leone Diamonds) took a point that your opinion about that is too , hmmm, yours opinion is unlikely to be a very realistic one, or better saying a statistical, more likely your opinion is just a single case... That of course is almost useless in the describing of the whole picture .
perhaps you need to learn more statistical data from a history of Uncle Sam in particular.
markkur said:
Now China...you know the land where so many American jobs went behind the mantra of "improving the lot of the Chinese people", the China that has like the most freaking breathing Human bodies on the planet...now plans this shee-it.
Quote:
Apple and Samsung supplier Foxconn has reportedly replaced 60,000 factory workers with robots.
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36376966
Actually this "freaking breathing bodies" I calling - the peoples..
And the chines is guilty in case of jobs for "peoples of US" went in wrong hands? O_o.
So what do you think to do with this "injustice", - "THIS JOB ONLY FOR AN AMERICANS"??? ....
This mister (or missis) mvassiliev gave to you some statistically data, as for me I little understand from it, but anyway . You must understand, you are smart one, because you talking about such injustice and about the difficult to understand things
markkur said:
Folks there is a War on people. Trash Utopian dreams where you will sit on your bum, be a bum and play video games in some sort of paradise where you don't ever have to lift a finger and have margaritas and nachos handed to you at your pleasure.
Yeah... This is a war, hmmm.
So I must (as I am human, not a machine ), make my protest against all this "machinery", and then I must go and fight this machinery O_o. Or what I must to do on this "war"?
markkur said:
<imo> Human life has been completely devalued. Holy and sacred Marriage is crap, White men are always the problem, "Tradition" horrible, Faith BS, unborn babies = worth zero, Motherhood attacked, Taxpayers mere mute Zombies that seldom even grumble and on and on the beat goes on with our Governments not giving a flying-flip about the welfare of their own people, that btw, pay there damned checks and foster they luxurious life!
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Holy Sacred Marriage? - This is the same holy sacred thing, that actually has been "developed" by the same peoples that eating other peoples under Marra? the Siege of Ma'arra el Numan (1098 A.C.).
This is the same "sacred marriage" that have been a main motto of this peoples - The Inquisition, that killing and torturing the peoples in the ways that you can only imagine.
Yeah, in that case the women can be easily killed if she have a sex not with her husband. Such "holy marriage" madness was in the Europe till XIIX c. A. C. if I am not mistaking...
An do you know where this madness is still - reality of life? You are right!
Quote:
Official from the Taliban beating a woman in Afghanistan for violating local interpretation of sharia
Somewhy I always have thought that "sacred marriege" must be regulated by Laws, not by church/religious nonsense.
If you trully love some person, I have doubts that you will betray she or he.
But your "holy sacred marriage" is connected with real life marriage in the same way as Holy Bible with healing a Plague...
markkur said:
. . .
It was a fine life till machines started replacing many jobs (this was about the time when General Motors introduced Robotic-Welders into its production line. From there, the trickle became a flood and of course then...our jobs started going over seas...hmm...like CHINA. Oh yes we heard "its good to have competition" "free-market" and all that tripe but now that nation (just like Japan and many others) have to have Robots because what? They have too many freakin' people?
The nation making robots because of many peoples there ? O_o... Actually the "nation" is a very abstract thing, perhaps you must be more preciously of what you exactly means of it..
markkur said:
This stuff makes my blood boil. But of course that's all easily explained, I am an old fashioned white American male and my values and beliefs about the sacred importance of Human-life in all ways is archaic and undesirable.
I think the all old-fashioned white american males will understand you better than me .
Actually the Uncle Same and the Soviet Union taking their power from a thing that nobody cares about your skin color, your race, ethnic (or even ethic.. ) stuff, only about what you can do, what you cannot, and what you actually do .
the US achieved are much more success with it. - World Population, especially if the quality of life mentioned.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 10, 2016 11:12 PM |
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I've thought about this subject quite extensively.. the ethics of machine labor. On the one hand I intuitively figured that people are entitled to work for reasonable wages, but on the other it seems obvious that it is in peoples best interest that technology and mass production continue to improve.
I have a few basic axioms that I build off of.
First, people are entitled to get out of society proportional to what they put in.
Lets take a look at how 'money' started. Originally, before currency, there was the barter system. "I'll trade you this many nails for that many apples". This is inefficient because one person may specialize in making nails but has to conduct a lot of trades to get a more easily traded commodity. Enter the market place. Someone makes something and sells it. They get an amount of money proportional to the value of what they sold (we can get into an argument about how to define value, but it isn't important). They can then use that money to take from others things they need in proportion to that value. Obviously if a person works harder, or more skillfully, or has an education they can contribute more and thus they are entitled to earn more.
I would like to make a side note that this pretty much proves that Wallstreet are thieves. Think about what they contribute to society with their high-frequency trading and they zero down mortgages and derivatives: nothing but instability. In theory a bank has a functional place in society but modern bankers are just clever theives who steal from the market itself. They contribute nothing (I would even say they make the world a worse place) and become centi-millionaires or even billionaires.
Second, a person is not entitled to anything they didn't earn that costs others things.
People nowadays (especially here in California which gives out a third of the nations wellfare payments) feel they are entitled to food and shelter and healthcare and now some feel a free education. The government can't give you anything it didn't take from someone else. Conversely if what you want doesn't take from others, something free, (say you and your partner are into some "immoral" form of sex or like fireworks on your own property or want to say something heretical) the government has no business stopping you.
Third there should be maximum utility and production and happiness that is possible, distributed fairly.
But what is "fairly"?
Well the answer is pretty obvious if you think about it. Lets pretend for a moment that the world was had only the skill level of the bottom 75% of society, people who cook, clean, build, craft at a level that a medieval worker could do. If the whole world was like this with no engineers or businessmen enabling mass production then the whole world would have a medieval standard of living.
There are on the other hand brilliant people who do things like make assembly lines, write code, design layouts that enable for literally everyone in the country to have a cell phone, a hand held touch screen battery powered computer. These are the people who make us all live well.
Unemployment is mostly an artifact of minimum wage. If there was no minimum wage then people would have to compete with machines and maybe only earn enough to have a medieval standard of living. But that is all they are contributing with their medieval skill and input.
So as far as I'm concerned people are entitle to very little. Americans take for granted their flat screen TVs and their microwaveable dinners when they could never create something so sophisticated on their own.
But then comes in the third axiom, maximization.
Imagine a world with only the top 1% alive. They would also live in medieval conditions. If you lived on an island with 100 geniuses, there is no chance they would have computers and cars. They would just be more efficient farmers. You need a mass market to have mass production. You can't have Intel if there are only 1000 people in the world who can buy things. Eventually machines will replace essentially all workers, which would be good except that who will we sell things to? If 95% of the world makes medieval wages you cant sell cellphones which means you can't make them. So in the previously proposed world where the nearly useless masses earn little, even the brilliant get screwed.
It took me a long time to accept it because it blatantly violates my first two axioms, but the basic income - the idea that dumb people get paid to sit at home smoking marijuana and breeding, is actually in the interest of the people who make this world work. It will keep our economy going.
So let the machines take over. Let everyone lose their jobs. If we pay people to do nothing we are all better off than if we live as Luddites, avoiding technological progress.
Also just to be clear I do not support the 1% because I think most of them are clever thieves. Most of our CEOs and top bankers should just be burned alive, the rest of us would be better off.
____________
I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 11, 2016 03:18 AM |
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Miru said:
So let the machines take over. Let everyone lose their jobs. If we pay people to do nothing we are all better off than if we live as Luddites, avoiding technological progress.
+
Miru said:
Also just to be clear I do not support the 1% because I think most of them are clever thieves. Most of our CEOs and top bankers should just be burned alive, the rest of us would be better off.
Greetings Miru
I'm glad your are thinking, it seems too many don't bother today.
I think you are missing the connection between your two statements above.
Who is most likely to take advantage of ANY Tech that replaces people? Is it not the ultra rich that can have all of the latest techs? And do they give a damn about the common-folks? Hell no.
Ftr, I think things are already very bad here in the states. For the first time in years I looked at the leading employers (number of jobs) in my "one time" hometown and saw something very scary and sad. Of the Top-10 - 4 were Governmental and 4 were Medical related. Only two were outside of this majority and one of those 2 is another country's company. Numbers wise, the Government-jobs far exceeded ALL the rest. And what is the government doing these days? Tracking your ass. What a future. It's so bright baby I'm blinded. 
With Tech...there is no ceiling and everyday people do not matter. An extreme example but it makes my point; If I were able to make one Tech that could eliminate every IT job in the world? There is nothing in place to stop me.
Further; how could anyone get a real pulse on the working-health of societies today? Statistics are purposely skewed and in some areas non-existent, So, I don't see any way for sensible progress. <imo> We have not had any yet.
I know I'm a "loving" voice from the old wilderness but, hey, I gotta try. People will always matter more to me than machines of any sort unless they actually save the people.
An aside of sorts: The West is having an immigration crisis today by getting millions of people inside their borders and they have nothing to do but to take handouts to exist and then what?.
Idk, maybe having some of those oh so nasty menial jobs might come in handy...even today.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 11, 2016 04:22 AM |
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Miru said:
They get an amount of money proportional to the value of what they sold (we can get into an argument about how to define value, but it isn't important). They can then use that money to take from others things they need in proportion to that value. Obviously if a person works harder, or more skillfully, or has an education they can contribute more and thus they are entitled to earn more.
I would like to make a side note that this pretty much proves that Wallstreet are thieves. Think about what they contribute to society with their high-frequency trading and they zero down mortgages and derivatives: nothing but instability.
If you had gone into more detail about value, it might've been more difficult to say that Wall Street are thieves. They get an amount of money that they value more highly than not working and the buyer values less than the product of their labor - thus, both gain from the exchange, and the labor is valuable because (and only because) some are willing to pay for it. Since there are some people who are willing to pay Wall Street to do stuff, presumably they expect some value out of it.
The degree to which high-frequency trading is actually useful is a complicated subject, and I recommend those without significant knowledge of the subject matter to suspend judgment rather than confidently calling people "thieves".
____________
Eccentric Opinion
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted August 11, 2016 06:57 AM |
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They are not thieves, they just convert nothing to more nothing, creating economic instability in the process. Reference - pretty much every economic crisis for the last 250+ years.
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted August 11, 2016 09:26 AM |
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Edited by frostysh at 09:40, 11 Aug 2016.
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Miru -
The first what I want to type about - the hell lot amount of text.. :/ .
The second point is: your models is almost totally disconnected with the real life. Especially second one about 'machine labor doing all'.
You have some imagination ,s o you can imagine yourself on the place of Uncle Sam government, i.e., can you?
1) You have the population ~350 millions of peoples that is requiring for an effective management.
2) You see that the replacing many workers by machines will make a rapid rising of numbers of the unemployment peoples = = = > the disturbances = = = > the chaos in society.
Why do you need to do, to prevent such sad-happens?
3) You are making a restrictions to such technologies (i.e. AI) in the common life, and left it for a better times
4) the children eating the slaughtered cattle in the MacDonalds, the peoples looking TV, typing on the internet forum about the Greed and evil Machines - , and so on - The Happy End is.
You have a good historical examples - i.e. Manhattan Project, there was a secret government project, that a very little amount of peoples is know about, most of happy folk just sitting on that stadium and eating their pop-corn, and nobody cares about what they thinking about the "Nuclear Greed" . And now you are alive because the SU not wiped out Uncle Sam with the Nuclear Fallout because of "Guaranteed Disadvantages for Both Sides of Conflict", you are in the frigging comfort and warm room because of a dammn Nuclear Power Plants Energy supply, and so on...
And you, both with markkur typing about machine greed and holy sacred marriage - I am sorry, there is a little bit too much of sarcastic stuff, do not take as offense please.
mvassilev - +1 for the Economics is a much more complicated than the peoples is thinking about.
Zenofex - The Capitalistic Economy stuff is a very important things for a normal existing of a large masses of peoples, do you have any good alternatives? - Oh.. you have not? - No further questions.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 11, 2016 09:36 PM |
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markkur said:
Who is most likely to take advantage of ANY Tech that replaces people? Is it not the ultra rich that can have all of the latest techs? And do they give a damn about the common-folks? Hell no.
Oh I agree with this entirely. While I do believe that some people deserve more money than others, the current system and the current rich I abhor. As much as I hate the modern twist on socialism, Karl Marx's ideas about unearned income I quite like. People shouldn't be rich because their parents had money they can invest.
markkur said:
Ftr, I think things are already very bad here in the states.
...
What a future. It's so bright baby I'm blinded.
Agreed again
markkur said:
With Tech...there is no ceiling and everyday people do not matter. An extreme example but it makes my point; If I were able to make one Tech that could eliminate every IT job in the world? There is nothing in place to stop me.
That could be a good thing though. The work gets done, but no human has to do it. The only problem now becomes the distribution of wealth.
markkur said:
Further; how could anyone get a real pulse on the working-health of societies today? Statistics are purposely skewed and in some areas non-existent, So, I don't see any way for sensible progress. <imo> We have not had any yet.
I know I'm a "loving" voice from the old wilderness but, hey, I gotta try. People will always matter more to me than machines of any sort unless they actually save the people.
An aside of sorts: The West is having an immigration crisis today by getting millions of people inside their borders and they have nothing to do but to take handouts to exist and then what?.
Idk, maybe having some of those oh so nasty menial jobs might come in handy...even today.
Well that's the problem between theory and practice. I agree with all of this and even if I were emperor of the world I don't think I could fix our problems. But that doesn't mean we should stop technological progress.
@Mvass and Zeno: I disagree quite firmly, but that is another topic. Maybe I'll make a thread titled "Wallstreet is a bunch of theives" and we can debate it there.
frostysh said:
2) You see that the replacing many workers by machines will make a rapid rising of numbers of the unemployment peoples = = = > the disturbances = = = > the chaos in society.
Why do you need to do, to prevent such sad-happens?
I don't know. It is going to be a rough transition. I don't think that good and fairness will prevail. I'm not sure I could guide the transition even if I was in charge. There will be at least one more large depression/recession in the next twenty years, that's obvious to me.
frostysh said:
4) the children eating the slaughtered cattle in the MacDonalds, the peoples looking TV, typing on the internet forum about the Greed and evil Machines - , and so on - The Happy End is.
These are also issues for which I have no good solution.
I'm not sure what to think about nukes. They are a mixed blessing at best. For now, while only nations control them, you could say they bring peace. But once erratic individuals and groups (like today's ISIS) can get ahold of them, I don't think they will be so great.
I also have quite a lot of remarks to make on the subject of capitalism, perhaps I'll type them up. But again, I think that is the edge of on topic for this thread.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 12, 2016 02:25 AM |
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Miru said:
That could be a good thing though. The work gets done, but no human has to do it. The only problem now becomes the distribution of wealth.
+
Well that's the problem between theory and practice. I agree with all of this and even if I were emperor of the world I don't think I could fix our problems. But that doesn't mean we should stop technological progress.
Miru we are nearly like-minded about the whole mess except for the idea that Government cannot intervene for the benefit of the larger population. <imo> Until some Utopian "share the wealth" happens (and I would never hold my breath on that) "safeguards" should be a strong consideration. And of course there is at least one opposing view that people need work for life-value, besides the basic body & brain needs.
What's really crazy to me today is the growing "out of control" Governmental interference in our daily lives concerning issues where they have no business being and yet, where they could make a positive controlled impact?...they lift not a finger. That's because it is a Corporate-owned-Government. If existing citizens actually mattered again? We would see the scene change and managed for once.
Btw, you should make a Wall-Casino-Street thread ; I think have a couple of links worth a listen for most.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 12, 2016 08:53 AM |
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I, of course, agree that people should work both for themselves and to earn what they get. But I don't think that is going to be viable economically.
Plutocracy. The word you are looking for is plutocracy.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted August 16, 2016 12:37 PM |
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Edited by frostysh at 12:38, 16 Aug 2016.
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Now I am eating the very cheap food - somekind of a fabric grain made food, I do not know what a name of it in the English, and the frigging flies and insects making me mad  But when I am reading this posts of mr. markkur especially, I am laughing as crazy . I almost eat a fly in the process .
Miru -
Miru said:
I don't know. It is going to be a rough transition. I don't think that good and fairness will prevail. I'm not sure I could guide the transition even if I was in charge. There will be at least one more large depression/recession in the next twenty years, that's obvious to me.
You have a pretty oracle inside your head, if you can predict the future through 20 years .
If there in Uncle Sam, will be depression, recission, and stuff, so what? Nothin' catastrophic will happen. Perhaps some amount of peoples will lose their jobs, and what next? This fact will no kill them. They still will have a food and the roof over their heads, etc, perhpas life conditions for a some group of peoples will be little bi worst for some time, but this fact will not make a serious affect to the population and the entire Uncle Sam society. - In my honored opinion, there was a many depressions and recessions in US through the History, no such thing can do serious harm to Uncle Sam.
Miru said:
These are also issues for which I have no good solution.
I'm not sure what to think about nukes. They are a mixed blessing at best. For now, while only nations control them, you could say they bring peace. But once erratic individuals and groups (like today's ISIS) can get ahold of them, I don't think they will be so great.
What you talking about? Is this a nonsense?
- i.e. US did not made their Manhattan Project because of a Nuclear Greed and the Holy Sacred Marriage, and the fear that the many workers on the Oil/Coal Power Plants will lose their jobs ,
and then mr. markkur and/or mr/mrs Miru waking up at the some beautiful day, in their warm and safe houses, because of the after nuclear explosion earthshake, the reason of this sad situation is next - the SU made their Nuclear Program much more earlier than US (because they do not give ... about any Holy Sacred Marriage, and so on . . . ) and then SU decided to, hmmm, to test this new toys over a New York, to discover how the Fallout can make effect on the modern megalopolis, or perhaps the entire area of the North America too... . (I have a bad humor, I know...)
And then mr. markkur and mr/mrs MIru can make a pray to the Jesus Holy Christ and to the Holy Sacred Marriage altogether, to protect them from a modern ballistic missiles equipped with a multiplying warheads, but I have doubts that this 'lay-on-hands' skill will be effective in such pity situation .
So really I do not understand what you talking about a mixing blessing, IMHO such Advanced Technologies as a Nuclear Chain Reactions cannot be avoided if want your state to be alive for a long time...
Miru said:
I also have quite a lot of remarks to make on the subject of capitalism, perhaps I'll type them up. But again, I think that is the edge of on topic for this thread.
I have no doubts that you have, but I have a doubts that you can provide the only one single Historical example where something different from a capitalism was an effective when it's applied to the large state....
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 16, 2016 08:33 PM |
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frostysh said:
Miru said:
I also have quite a lot of remarks to make on the subject of capitalism, perhaps I'll type them up. But again, I think that is the edge of on topic for this thread.
I have no doubts that you have, but I have a doubts that you can provide the only one single Historical example where something different from a capitalism was an effective when it's applied to the large state....
On the contrary, I think capitalism is the best. Everyone thinks capitalism is failing, but that isn't true - we aren't capitalist.
The the basic premise of capitalism is: in a fair and competitive market... blah blah blah (buyers and sellers reach a fair agreement on price, for example). In what way is our market place fair or competitive? In almost every sector there is one or two mega-corporations with total market control and no competition. Products like Microsoft and Coca-Cola (a $1.50 for a 22oz bottle? please) would never sell in a competitive marketplace. And the institutionalized bribery that is the campaign donation system is a guarantee that the market will never be fair.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted August 17, 2016 01:56 PM |
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Edited by frostysh at 14:09, 17 Aug 2016.
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Miru -
Miru said:
. . . And the institutionalized bribery that is the campaign donation system is a guarantee that the market will never be fair.
I can imagine myself as a rulers of Tokyo-3:
1) Usually when the final customer is happy, and society is happy - I do not care about any economical market games. i.e. Coca-Cola stuff filled the all sell-places, with a cheap and stupid bottles. All is fine, peoples are happy in their drinking and so on...
2) Still if some particular Corporation become a too, become a too (damm I do not know a proper word in English), become a too greed, to powerful, to aggressive to the outside market, too monopoly and so on... This is actually bad for a market health = = = > then it is a bad for a society 'mood'. I must to do something with it.
3) I unleashing the unspeakable power over a foolish Corporation, and then I will show who is the boss there , this can be a very different methods - from the AntiMonopolistic Committee to the , hmm, a direct actions against the main Corporation figures and their families, friends, and so on.
4) The result is: all is fine again, the Corporation keeping it's appetites on the formidable level, the peoples drinking their nonsense at the sun-shining streets of the Tokyo-3, and do not give a ... about problems - Viola, a happy society it is .
As for myself, I see no other variants for a Tokyo-3 than Democracy + Capitalism, any others utopia like ruler system cannot even stand near in the terms of the effectiveness. Perhaps in the future will be discovered somethin' new and a more effective, but for now I see no variants except.
P.S. I have saw your signature before, somewhere, what an author if it?
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 17, 2016 09:34 PM |
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My signature is in Civ IV, it's the quote for the research pottery. It's a quote from the bible, Romans 9:21. (I am not a Christian)
I found it a very interesting philosophical argument, one that I am mulling over today. I don't think I agree with it.
What it means is this: A potter can make many things out of clay. He might take some clay and use some of it to make a beautiful vase. He might take some more and make an ash tray. They ash tray doesn't have the right to back-talk the pottery and complain "How come I have to be an ash tray? I want to be a beautiful vase!". Well the potter wanted an ash tray so he made one.
It's a metaphorical answer to the question "Why did god make bad people?" or "Why did god make some people be born into a ghetto where they are made into thieves by circumstance?". In a sense god damns some people to hell the moment he makes them, based on what kind of person he makes them. After all god made every serial killer the way they are. Well basically it's the clergy saying "It's not your position to question who you are. God wanted someone like you so he made someone like you, and if he set you up to fail and go to hell, too bad.".
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 18, 2016 03:02 AM |
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I understand you gave an answer to his last question. But let's keep the thread on Greed.
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted August 18, 2016 03:03 PM |
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Edited by frostysh at 15:10, 18 Aug 2016.
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Miru -
Yes indeed! This particular quote is from Civilization 4, my Zulu Republic has been bated by Chine few times recently (Sid difficulty) there .
About the philosophical stuff - where is artu ? This guy can provide you with a tons of philosophical text, and even the old-school SU propaganda photos in Afghanistan included .
I have nothin' against Philosophy, I like it, and little bit lower, I will describe my own Philosophy stuff, at least the something from it, but for sure, the Philosophy is the one thing, and the real life, the real Nature is the another, so I want to be careful to do not mix too much of a hardcore Philosophy and the real life, because it is leading to the pity results, usually . . .
The little part of ma' own Philosophy:
1) The God - who even cares about such thing? O.o
i.e. how you can be sure in something that anyone on the Earth cannot check for truth?
2) The your own choice, the your own decision - is the most important thing in your life. The your own choice is making who you are.
i.e. you are in 1942 A.D. in the Nazi German, and you must to burn down few thousands of hooked noses folks, you have an afford to make a decision:
I. You can say to the nazies guys: "What a hell you are doing!? This is a madness! Believing in such mythological nonsense, and burning innocent peoples - are you braindamaged, all of you!?" - obviously the most happy end for you in that case will be imprisonment and torturing, but more likely you will be burned down with the jewish folks together as a traitor of a holy sacred nation...
II. Or you can say: "Okay, no problem I will burn this evil jewish folks right now for a safety of our holy sacred nation, hail to nation, hail to fuhrer ... "
About the Greed In my honored opinion. - it is hard to type something interesting for the answer to the guy, that mixing greed and the robotic technologies in the terms of life conditions and a religious stuff . . . 
IMHO anyway:
1) The mr. markkur' surrounding world image is a little bit, curved, is a little bit deformated by a huge, by a super-massive object - The Holy Bile
i.e. mr markkur typing the word "greed" like a "Greed", same as a smelling philosopher and theologian Thomas Ackhvinaz , have written a ~500 frigging years before, if I am right about.. Because this not a typo psychological stuff in the mr markkur' mind, but a Sin, as it is described in the endless numbers of the versions of the Holy Bible book.
2) Still this topic is interesting for myself, because of idea of effective Technological Progress management in the entire society.
i.e. the pedophilia braindamaging anime "Evangelion", supercomputers M.A.G.I.
Tokyo-3, N.E.R.V. Headquarters, M.A.G.I. AI Main Data Center
in the NERV organization, this technology can be implemented in the common life of Tokyo-3 folks a very fast, by NERV, = = = > - The cyborgs and a robots will replace the human-workers, because cyborg and robots do not need a food, and they do not require a payments for their job... = = = > - The large masses of peoples will lose their jobs. = = = > The large amount of unemployment will produce a poverty and a socio-economic crisis = = = > the Chaos in a society, with a large amount of the victims...
The solutions is: NERV hold on this technology for itself before a better times.
3) You cannot stop the Technological Progress, but in the modern times to discover somethin' revolutionary, somethin' new, you is usually need for a large Scientific Research Center, with a hell lot amount of resources utilized there...
4) The Nowadays Robotic Technologies cannot do any harm to the Economic and to Social 'Weather' in Uncle Sam, in the worst case, some amount of peoples will lose 1 or two cars , and perhaps will be forced to use the Metropolitan, but this is obviously will not kill them .
5) So this particular topic is a very interesting for myself, but a this particular topic have a failed question from the begging, the reason of it IMHO is a m is ahh, hmmm, that ahhh , a mind of topic starter is too much focused on a Greed, and on a Sin, and on a stuff  which is obviously little bit disagree with a real world .
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