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| Thread: Attempting to cast Defuse Tension spell | |
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted June 21, 2016 11:04 PM |
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Attempting to cast Defuse Tension spell
Instead of drowning this in the mega-sized discussion thread, I thought I would spin-off to a different topic. Due to the lack of new information the discussion has over a longer time had a tendency to repeat itself. In simplified form it often goes like this:
- Something is mentioned about H7
- It is criticized
- It is argued how this was done better in the previous games
- Lamenting over how bad H7 is overall
- Joking about how bad H7 is overall
- Someone else arguing that H7 has improved since it was released
- Reply that the only improvement good enough amounts to a new game
- Suggesting that the community is too negative and stuck in the past
You get the idea, and might relate to one or more of the points. Usually when the same arguments are repeated several times, it is often because one feels they are not understood or perceived by the other party. This can be due to misunderstanding what the other party is trying to say, arguing from different points of view or conflicting assumptions which are not revealed. I'm not trying to be high and lofty, but in my opinion the discussion lately has been more about trying to get the other party to adopt ones own point of view instead of actually discussing things from different points of view, while being aware of this. There are some objections in particular I want to address, and hopefully be able to defuse some tension. I could just be stating the obvious here, but at the same time I feel I need to.
This one thing is enough to make me dismiss the whole game
When others dismiss the entire game based on one thing only, it can feel rather frustrating. Especially if that thing is of minor importance to yourself. There are so many aspects of the game that are good, so how can this one thing make it unplayable? Well, we all do this. For me it was heroes on the battlefield in H4. For others it might be skill and magic system in H7, or 2D graphics in H3. "It doesn't matter if H7 has decent graphics if the mechanics are inferior to what is expected of a Heroes game", just as "It doesn't matter if H3 has good mechanics if the graphics belong in a museum". We enjoy games for different reasons, and likewise we dislike games for different reasons. One thing could be enough to make a game un-playable. We need to be aware of this and accept it. Trying to diminish the importance of the thing in question and highlighting other aspects of the game amounts to changing their personal preference. The chance of that happening in an internet discussion is as low as drowning in the Sahara.
I'm only criticizing the game, not the ones playing it
There are two aspects to this. The first is that we tend to have an emotional connection to things in our possession. Say you own a phone, and someone says something bad about the phone, we can feel offended by what they said even though we shouldn't. If this happens the responsibility is on you to keep in mind that they are criticizing an object and not you as a person. Otherwise you will tend to argue back against the person instead of addressing what was said about the object. This of course is just as valid the other way around when someone says something nice about a thing you have negative emotional connections to.
The other aspect is when the criticism of the object implies something about the owner. For games we might use expressions like dumbing down. There is nothing inherently wrong with that expression, but if someone liked the so-called dumbed down result, they could imply that you are calling them dumb. Here there needs to be discretion both ways. On the one hand these type of statements are usually not meant to say anything about the players, so we shouldn't be too sensitive. On the other hand repetitive statements that could be perceived as indirect insults are very tiring. So be aware of how you express your criticism of a game - old or new - less you imply something unintended about the people who love it.
If you don't like the game, stop talking about it
I have seen this reasoning in various forms around here, and although I will argue it is incorrect I can at least understand where it's coming from. If someone doesn't like the game, has stopped playing the game or never even owned or tried it in the first place, why on earth are they spending so much time on a forum discussing it? Criticizing the different aspects and spreading so much negativity - even having an interest in the employment of the people who made it. If you don't like it, fine. Just leave it alone and let those who enjoy it discuss without having to be constantly reminded about what you think is bad.
I can understand this reasoning, but remember that many on this forum have spent one or two decades playing heroes. That's a long time. They grew up with the games, saw them rise and fall several times, and are still highly engaged in playing, discussing and even modding both old and new games. It's a deeply treasured franchise that has given a lot of joy over the years, so it's not abandoned lightly even when things don't go their way. Think of them as soccer supporters who have stood by their team for twenty years. From when the team started in the minor leagues slowly advancing to the big league by improving on the previous formula, to the time they tried a new approach which combined with the owners monetary issues didn't go so well, and for a time all seemed to be lost. But a new owner stepped in and after a rocky start they eventually seemed to have regained their previous glory days. However the coach seemed to have a different vision than the fans, and the team's popularity started to decline.... Okay, I might have gone too far with the soccer team analogy. I could go even further, but this was not my point here. My point was: What do soccer fans do when their team performance is bad? Do they forget about it and start watching volleyball? Some do, but many still sit around hours discussing what the team did wrong after every single match, how they could have played differently, which players need to be sold or acquired, how bad the coach is and how he should be replaced, how much better the team performed when they were at their best and so on. Their passions doesn't go away, it just transforms from enthusiasm to criticism or even cynicism. So even though people don't like the game, or have never even played it, they will continue to talk about it. Hopefully this helps explain why.
H7 should be judged by its own merits, not constantly compared to the previous games
I won't spend much time on this point, as I think it's fairly simple. Still, I see it mentioned from time to time so I just wanted to address it. Ubisoft made a decision to create Heroes games. They could have made an entirely new fantasy TBS, but they didn't. They made H5, H6 and H7. This gave them access to an existing fan base and name recognition, but it also meant that the games would have to live up to certain expectations. Just as H5 was compared to its predecessors, so H6 and H7 have been, and should be. Just as Matrix Reloaded is compared to the original Matrix. Many people dislike Reloaded because it is so different from the original. I happen to like both movies even though they are different, but I certainly can't blame people for having certain expectations for the sequel based on the original. We do this when it comes to all products and services that are "new editions" of the previous, from movies to cars to cell phones and games. Companies know this and have to evaluate whether to make something new or a #7 of something people are already familiar with.
H7 needs to be fixed vs H7 needs to be re-done
Lastly this is an issue of point-of-view. It depends on what parts of the game you think need improvement, and whether it is possible to satisfactorily improve these without having to do it from scratch. It also depends on what expectations you have, what state you perceive the game to be in, what you believe the chances for said improvements to occur and so on. All of this and a lot more will influence whether you think H7 has potential and some flaws, but just needs some fixing to realize it's full potential, or whether you think so much is fundamentally wrong with the game that fixing everything will be the same as making a new game. My only point here is to understand the others' point of view. For those that think almost everything needs improvement, no amount of fixing will bring the game up to their standards. Their criticism will be the same when support ends, as it relates to much of the fundamentals of the game which will not change. For those that already enjoy the game, all fixes are appreciated and all improvements are welcome. There is not much else to say here except understand that people have different points of view, and based on that they want the game to be supported for as long or short as possible - in both cases to increase the chance of getting the Heroes game they want.
This turned out much longer than I had set out for  Anyway, feel free to clarify your point of view, clear up any misunderstandings, defuse any tension and generally have Kumbaya-moments below 
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted June 21, 2016 11:20 PM |
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Edited by EnergyZ at 23:32, 21 Jun 2016.
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I agree with almost all points, except the part about one thing being enough not to play the game. It would be true if the game revolved around one system/feature, which could be drastically changed. Heroes franchise has a lot of systems and features, so if one thing isn't good developed, there are other things to enjoy. Unfortunately as it is, Heroes VI and VII have a lot of features and systems changed drastically, making the whole game less desirable to play. Otherwise people would place their ambitions too high to let one thing ruin their whole gameplay, while the rest of the game could be great.
This thread is quite good to read, but I fear it won't change much. Some may read and forget about it, others would ignore it or even refuse to read it. What's done is done, and a lot of attempts to calm down both sides have been temporary and not very successful.
Still, this thread is a good enough to read... maybe even quality point good enough to read.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 21, 2016 11:26 PM |
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That was a good read, cheers
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 22, 2016 12:03 AM |
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
channeling capybara energy
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posted June 22, 2016 01:10 AM |
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I liked the soccer analogy, this is what vexes new blood the most. Hope they'll get why I consider myself a heroes fan still, despite barely playing in the last decade.
Not naming names out of standard courtesy 
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Friend-shaped
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 22, 2016 03:27 AM |
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I thinks it's funny at this point tbh lol
Like some members are on a quest to find some hidden gem in heroes 7 that's gonna make all the "haters" take back everything they said and start pouring hours into h7...lol Like I even play it a lot, hundreds of hours into it. And yeah majority of the time all the "negative" things said about the game are true. It is what it is, a mediocre game with decent graphics. But it's a Homm game (kinda) so even the worst heroes game is better than the best FPS imho.
But I don't like being put into the fans of h7 crowd because it seems like every counter argument is some nonsensical statement about how perfect the game is. If it's not obvious by now what a major downgrade the series has had since Ubi has taken the wheel then idk what to say. I don't get why it even gets talked about.
Edit: playing it as I wrote this. Going into battle with my ranged army of upgraded Cyclops, centaurs, and gnolls. **starts battle** week of the storm. No ranged attacks. I even try to like this game and I still hate it
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 22, 2016 09:00 AM |
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@greendragon
Again why the polarization??
The game can be utter garbage or the best game ever? Only those two?
No space between??
No one is on a quest to find charms.
Some people have different tastes/views and enjoy the game. Some people are more casual players. Why not share what we like?
@brukenwwrn
There is no tension just dialogue.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted June 22, 2016 11:19 AM |
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to me it's a bit like getting into a debate with diehard fans of Jaws 4: The Revenge
for most reasonable people, Jaws 4: The Revenge is considered a terrible movie, and probably even more so for people who already watched Spielberg, obviously this is subjective but the audience is generally able to put its heads together and agree on what constitutes a bad movie, be it cheap or snowty direction, poor acting, crap plot, snowty pacing, cinematography etc lol
you can be a diehard fan of Jaws 4: The Revenge and have as big a song and dance as you want, come on message boards and insult the film buff reviewers and critical audience of Jaws 4: The Revenge calling them "circle jerks", "trolls", "haters" or what have you, you can make lists of things where you think Joe Sargent improved on Spielberg, you can point out the production problems of Jaws 4: The Revenge, or demand that the audience waits for the Directors' Cut of Jaws 4: The Revenge which will solve all its problems before being allowed to judge Jaws 4: The Revenge,
at the end of the day, what's done is done,
there's no problem to enjoy Jaws 4: The Revenge, maybe someone will even set up a special thread where you can effusively praise Jaws 4: The Revenge without challenge or critical thinking from others, but you're not going to turn back time and turn Jaws 4: The Revenge into a classic movie, you're not going to change the world's perceptions, you can't start griping about the film buffs and the rest of the audience and be taken seriously,
most people didn't want Jaws 4: The Revenge lol
it would be better, if it were better lol
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted June 23, 2016 12:57 AM |
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Oh, it will always be like that, not like "hey good job Ubi, you finally did a good strategy game that works".
My favorite part though is "I'm not playing this game because of 1 problem" Yeah, the multiplayer out of sync thing. Obviously.
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 23, 2016 02:44 PM |
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@ChrisD
I do put it on the middle ground, sorry if I'm being confusing. It's the best Ubi heroes for me but that doesn't make it perfect. Far from it. When i compare it to h6, so many things were done better this time like the magic system, unit diversity, adventure map interaction, skill system, faction line ups..etc
But when compared to the rest of the titles in the series, all those aspects of the game I just mentioned get easily out shinned by a past game. Some of them are subjective and I guess that's where the tension starts. But even though I don't like h5 at all I'll say it's skill system is the best in the series, many would agree. Creature diversity in heroes 2 was incredible.. Heroes 3&4 had the best/most adventure map buildings without a doubt.
But if there is "one thing" that can completely turn away players, it's the AI. If i didn't have my friends to play with this game would be collecting dust. It's just not a challenge.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted June 23, 2016 05:33 PM |
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Stevie said:
I do not understand the purpose of this thread. Is it just to relay the current situation or suggest a more desirable one?
I think the purpose of this thread is to think about all comments and try to respect different opinions.
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