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| Thread: Heroes II: Random synergies & Faction tier list |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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x-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted June 23, 2016 08:12 PM |
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Heroes II: Random synergies & Faction tier list
Hi guys.
After a long time break, I reconsidered playing my fav Heroes ever - HoM&M 2.
While probably more simple, even less balanced than Heroes 3, the music, custom maps, and artistic direction is what has been keeping me interested in the game for so long.
After having experienced a bit of everything, managing to get Black Dragon ranks on hard and winning a few maps on impossible like Cloud of Xeen(L and XL are manageable, S and M are much tougher) I would consider to have some knowledge about the game.
Also consider this tier list as a normal 1vs1 list without using unfair tactics (Hit & Run + high spellpower abuse, Dimension Door abuse).
The two most powerful elements of Heroes 2 are by order: Creature strength & Creature speed
Having initiative or not can especially early game or in small skirmish means death because your Hero cast spells first and you don't. This got balanced in Heroes 3.
So, with no further wait, let's first talk about the possible tier list:
1°) Warlock
With an absurd 1781 hp per week of creatures, the strongest t6 in the game (Black Dragon beats Titan), and 3 fliers it's easy to see why they are strong already: but what breaks them even more is the dungeon building. For 3000 gold, 5 wood and 10 ore you get 500 gold per day. This unique building combined with Statue gives you 750 gold per day, while other classes can get a maximum of 250 each.
It can makes Expert Diplomacy (provided you get it) that much stronger because creatures affected by diplomacy only cost gold.
The simple fact that every 4 days you can potentially buy a new hero from these two building alone makes it incredible. The faster you buy more hero, the fastest to supply chain/ explore the map/ win the map.
Other classes need to wait for 10 days in comparison.
Also worth of note, You can fast scout with a tier2 Very fast flier(!!): the gargoyle with crazy stats (7defense), unmatched by other factions. The Wizard's t2 Boar is also very fast but much worse overall and isn't a flier.
Later in the game, it's however advised to play your main hero with only Dragons (Green, Red, or Black if possible) in the army, as the 2 Hex attack can become a disaster for your troops. If more than 1 stack of Black Dragon in your army, space them up.
Consider 10 gems, 32000gold, 40 ore and 50 sulfurs (+2 per dragons 4000gold) to be able to build Maze, Swamp, and Black Tower for Black Dragons.
Combos to mention:
Armaggeddon + Dragons (immune to spells)
Teleport + Hydra + Stoneskin (makes the tanking and the passive makes cleaning stacks very quickly. Knight Hero is the strongest for the task but it doesn't matter that much.)
2°) Necromancer
Don't get fooled by their weekly creature healthpoint production (+/- 1200) because Necromancy has the potential to double it, triple it or even more (the bigger the enemy/neutral stack is, the bigger your skeleton stack will become).
Get death Wave / Animate Dead / Mass Haste on guild mage with basic wisdom, because Necromancer troops are slow and need the speed bonus + the lack of initiative means they'll always get losses and thus need revival.
The fact that your level 1 hero could potentially learn all these overpowered spells mean the Necro is an extremely strong class.
The Price of Loyalty expansion improved this class so much they gained a tier: The spade of Necromancy adds 10% of Necromancy skill for a wielder. The Shrine building while expensive (10woods, 10 crystals, 4000 gold is a lot) gives 10% to all Necromancer.
You can quickly get 100% of all enemy troops converted into friendly skeleton.
A good idea is not to farm huge Peasant stacks quickly, but instead increase your necromancy % (Shine, Spade...) and let the neutral stack grows each week.
Much like Heroes 3, the bigger the map, the stronger Necro becomes. But because Magic is stronger in Heroes 2 due to higher class Spells getting more useful, The Necromancer class is really strong in H2.
Although it doesn't seem like much, Necromancer is immune to Mind affecting spell: the overpowered blind doesn't work on him. That brings his rank higher up.
Rush for fast 10 Crystals & 10 Gems, so that you would get Upgraded Mansion and the strongest unit in Necro's arsenal: the Vampire Lord.
Because Peasants exist in Heroes 2, and that the overall unit is weaker than in Heroes 3 - vampire lord being tier 4 out of 6 means it's stronger than in Heroes 3 (4/6 = 66%, 4/7 = 57%), Vampire lord are the potential strongest unit in the game (no retaliation, damage are gained as healthpoint).
Farm the whole map to get hundreds and thousands of skeletons in the shortest amount of time. Avoid high level monsters altogether.
For battles against AI/ Humans, you absolutely need Power Liches.
Not only do they have a strong AoE attack, it's the only very fast (6 speed) unit the Necro has.
Also important - if ressources and template allow for it - is the Bone Dragon rush. What you need is the Mausoleum prebuilt or to buy the Mausoleum + Laboratory, which cost 14.000 20 ore 15 sulfur 10 wood and 5 of each ressources. If you can rush the Laboratory, at 1500 gold only the Bone Dragon becomes a game ender. If needed do some trades.
Combos to know:
Teleport + Skeleton stack
Very fast Powerliches + Mass Haste
Vampire lord + stoneskin Skeleton farming
Undead armies + Death Ripple/Death Wave
Enchanted Hourglass/ Wizard Hat + Mass Haste
3°) Wizard
A lot of inexperienced players consider Titans to be stronger than Black Dragons and Wizard to be the best faction. While The titans possess some immense strength, the ridiculous 5000+2gems make them extremely tough to obtain fast. Also, they lose in 1vs1 situation against Black Dragon, in particular with Armageddon & Mirror Image gets destroyed by the 2 Hexed dragon attack.
Unfortunately, the Giant are much worse than the Green Dragon because while both are average speed (4), Green Dragon already possess an advantage: his attack is 2 hexed and can clean neutral stack much more effectively.
The fact that you get one more spell per Mage guild level means you'll double your chance to get Dimension Door/Armageddon at level 5. The strongest spells in the game.
The rest of the Wizard is absolutely nothing impressive, although like Gargoyle for 150gold a piece, The boar is very fast (6 speed) and can allow for fast scouting, and The ArchMagi has very fast speed and no melee malus for 700gold.
Consider roughly around 45 gems (+2 per titans and 5000gold), 32000 gold 15 wood 15 ore and 10 of every other ressources to build Nest, Ivory Tower and Upgraded Cloud Castle. Terrific cost for a unit that gets beaten by Black Dragon and by other Warlock advantage, Wizard is in no way, shape, or form, contender for top 2 faction. Simply put, it's a high-mid tier faction all things considered.
Combos to know:
Mirror Image + Titans
Mirror Image + Huge Stack of Archmagi
Dimension Door + Boar scout
4°) Barbarians
Barbarians are the king of small maps, unfortunately these kind of maps are not particularly interesting and provide very few possible tactics. So they are not the main point of the game.
While the heroes are the best in the game (Attack + Pathfinding specialist) the fact that any class can claim one or multiple Barbarian Hero makes the faction weaker than intended.
The goblin is a decent t1 unit, but what makes the Barbarians shine in small map is the Ogre Lord power: at 60hp + 9 attack + 6 per week (for a total of 360hp per week for a tier 4 creatures!!) they are the ultimate early game tier4 unit, later beaten by Vampire Lord and its high building price (10 crystals 10 gems for the upgraded Mansion...).
Early game consider to go either Fast Ogre Lord (creeping) or Fast Troll (Castle capture): Fast Upgraded Adobe for Ogre is 5000 gold, 15 woods, 15 ore if Den is already built - Fast Troll is 6000 gold, 10 woods 30 ore. Get as soon as week 2 assaulting a castle (bonus if you get Archery Skill).
Combo to know:
Cyclops 20% paralyze + Double hexed attack manoeuver
Steelskin+ War Troll
Mass Bless + 5 War Troll stacks (Castle defense)
Bless+ Big Wolf Stack
5) Sorceress
She needs 30 ore and 20 Mercury to bring the ultimate weapon: the Ultra fast (7 speed) Phoenix (+1 Mercury /1500 gold each)
The problem is, if you don't have the money to "Phoenix guerilla" (attack + nuke with main magic hero / surrender just before opponent's turn / buy your retreating hero at closest town x repeat) exploit, the overall Sorceress faction leaves much to be desired. Grand Elf and Greater Druid might be very fast (6 speed), but that's not enough, and Sorceress has the less hp per week (871).
Sorceress would need infinite gold to be the strongest faction, and unfortunately that doesn't happen in a normal game.
However: special mention to an early/mid game Sorceress army leaded by expert archery Barbarian: Your greater Druids / Grand Elves (speed 6) will have initiative and hit with no 50% penalty with the huge attack the Barbarian hero has. Perfect for the mid game guerilla.
Combo to know:
Nuke (Chain Lightning, Arrow, Lightning Bolt)+ Phoenix attack + surrender > rebuy hero > attack x repeat as much as needed
Blind enemy + Greater Druid/ Grand Elves (speed 6)
6°) Knight
Average on small map, Terrible on anything else, there's nothing impressive with Knight.
Their Paladin does double damage against Undead, unfortunately can't save it against hordes of skeletons / Vampire Lords feeding on the low hitpoint of the Knight army.
Much like Barbarians, Knight would be stronger if their Hero was limited to this class. Except even the hero is clearly outclassed by the barb and his superior attack.
Their only redeeming quality is the Ultra Fast speed (7 Speed) of the Champion, which doesn't mean much considering the number of Knight weaknesses.
Combo to know:
Crusader + Bless (Ultimate counter to the Undead army: 80 damage per crusader!)
And now for the best creature per tier:
Tier 1:
Sprite (average speed, flier, enemy can't retaliate, 2hp)
Honourable mention: Skeleton (average speed, 2-3 damage, 4hp, necromancy related)
Tier 2:
Battle Dwarf (20hp, average speed, 6att/def, 25% spell damage)
Honourable mention: Gargoyle (15hp 4att/7def, flier, very fast)
Tier 3:
Griffin (25hp 6att/def, infinite retaliation, avg speed, flier)
Honourable mention: Wolf (15 hp, very fast, 5att/2def, dmg 3-5, double strike)
Tier 4:
Vampire Lord (40hp, fast, flier, no retaliation, 8att/6def lifeleech)
Honourable mention: Ogre Lord (60hp, 6 weekly production, 9att/6def, avg speed) / Minotaur King (45hp, very fast, 5-10dmg 9att/8def)
Tier 5:
Every faction has a viable T5.
Something to consider:
Ultra fast Champion
75hp (!!) Hydra that attacks adjacent units
High damage ranged Wizard unit that has no melee malus
High damage ranged Barbarian unit that regen one damaged Wartroll each turn
The only very fast Necromancer unit (Power Lich) that attacks all adjacent hexes (possibly hitting 7 hexes at once!).
Good stats all around for the Unicorn able to blind creature it attacks & retaliates 1/5th of the time.
Tier 6:
Black Dragon (Immune to spell, dmg 25-50, two hexes attack, 300hp, very fast)
Honourable mention: Titans (no melee malus, 300hp, huge 15att/15def, very fast, immune to mind affecting spells)
Tier consideration:
4 Warlocks are top creatures or tied for best creatures in t1-6 (t2, t3, t4, t6) and others are not bad.
Vampire Lord is worth a t5 unit and its passive is so powerful it makes Necromancer a contender for the best faction on XL map.
Except the balanced t5 in which they have champions, Knight has a terrible army.
Barbarian faction is extremely reliant on Ogre Lord, which provides 360hp on a weekly basis!
Sorceress has speed advantage, but lacks raw power and tankiness.
Wizard is expensive and somehow lackluster before late game with mage guild level 5 & Titans.
Considerations about Might vs Magic classes:
Nothing is stronger than a Mass Attack + Defense Barbarian Hero with Black Dragon and Sphere of Negation artifact.
The fact that you and your opponent cannot cast spells mean the formidable brute force you have will crush the enemy.
The problem with the Barbarian Hero is his overpowered skill attributes: 55% and 35% chance in attack and defense per level means if you get the "Blind" spell (level 2 so no wisdom required) you have no Magic hero to fear (Except Necromancer, no magic classes are really viable).
If your Barb gets Basic Wisdom + Mass Haste/ Mass Bless the Magic Heroes will get obliterated. The most unbalanced aspect of Might vs Magic is this.
Speaking of the Necro, his attributes are 15%/15%/35%/35% with
Haste and Basic Wisdom. The only Magic hybrid hero worth a pick.
Starting with Basic Wisdom means you can learn the level 3 Overpowered Animate Dead (animate permanently 50xspellpower of your dead undead unit) right off the bat provided you encounter the spell or have a mage guild lvl3 early.
The Knight hero focuses on defense and has +10/+10% chance of spellpower/magic per level. But it's useless because attack gets +10% bonus attack per point while defense only gets +5% and magic attributes are not your forte.
With a massive Intellect heroes with only very fast/ ultra fast creatures and fountains nearby, getting access to the overpowered Dimension doors mean you can travel huge distance across the map unharmed and dictate the pace of the game.
The spell Haunt can also completely kills the game for an enemy. Let's suppose he's Warlock and needs Sulfur for his Black Dragon.
You DDoor near his mine, capture it, Haunt it with Ghost, and sacrifice your stack of peasant/ t1 unit on it.
Now, to get it back, the Warlock has to destroy 50 ghosts (who targets the lower hp stacks) making him potentially lose the game.
Same for The wizard and his Gem mines, disabling the Titan production.
Dimension Door, Town Portal, Berzerk and Town Gates are the ONLY spells that make the Magic classes strong (giving infinite movement and instant manoeuver options): The longer the game, the worse they become. For a frontal assault, prefer a Barbarian Hero, much much stronger.
Overall, as a general idea: Magic Heroes = early game or Guerilla warfare (capture low defended town destroy second heroes avoid frontal fights) Might Heroes = late game or final attack.
Although we can clearly see the strengths & problems between factions in Heroes 2, the level 5 mage guild and diplomacy can make or break the game even further.
Overpowered tactics:
If you happen to play on a map with Burrowed Mound (Ghost building) rush for it. 1 Ghost for 1000gold in your army is enough to win the game provided you can feed on them. Always attack the weakest stack with your Ghost first, and skip turn with other creatures. Necromancer gets the most benefit out of it (Necromancy stack+ Ghost stack + no morale penalty).
At Expert Diplomacy, 100% of a neutral stack will join you for its gold cost, which let you chose which stack to purchase. If you manage to buy a stack of dragon and you already have Armageddon as a spell for example you can then give every other troops to a secondary hero/ scout.
The game has less varied strategies than Heroes 3, but it's still a very interesting game with an outstanding atmosphere.
____________
Peasant OP in HoM&M 2
Zombie OP in HoM&M 3
Roses are red. Sun is bright.
Kappa.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted June 24, 2016 10:47 AM |
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x-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted June 24, 2016 12:34 PM |
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Ok^^
Well, It seems I detailed a bit less back in 2011, Although most of the topic remains the same.
Yeah, Heroes 2 is massively unbalanced (especially compared with Heroes 5 & 3 with mods) but at least it's better than Heroes 1 Warlock and Heroes IV & VI Undead right? 
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted June 24, 2016 12:36 PM |
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x-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted June 24, 2016 12:48 PM |
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Uh?
Necropolis in Heroes VI was extremely overpowered in the early version of the game with bugged Dynasty Weapon (Arachne ) the Faction Building allowing to recruit Fallen troop, and the racial ability (think animate dead, except much more powerful).
I stopped playing Heroes VI addictively around that time, the game was simply not fun anymore.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted June 24, 2016 12:51 PM |
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x-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted June 24, 2016 01:15 PM |
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We deviate from Heroes 2 man 
Unfortunately for Heroes VI, the metagame revolved too much around heal, blessing, regeneration, and resurrection. It was all about not taking any losses with Necropolis & Haven, who thus had a creeping advantage.
EDIT: It was probably, retrospectively speaking, the most boring Hero yet (Although not the worst - that belongs to Heroes 7).
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted June 24, 2016 05:56 PM |
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I dont see that HIV is more unbalanced...
Heroes I too. Peasant has 0 upgrades in HI dragon too. In HII peasant has 0 dragon... TWO! HII is most unbalanced in Heroes history.
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x-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted June 24, 2016 07:40 PM |
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HIV is more unbalanced, it gives you AIDS! 
But more seriously, Heroes 1's balance is terrible for many reasons: First the Hydra while slow, plays with fewer grids than in the next heroes games. Less grids mean your passive works more often.
Also there is no very slow mechanism, only slow.
The Warlock in H1 has his two hexed attack, 200hp Dragon, his fast t2 gargoyle, and besides Hydra has NO slow units, meaning they most likely will strike first.
In Late game, the weekly +3 Dragon dwelling breaks the game.
But anyway, back on H2 please.
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 24, 2016 09:06 PM |
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Part of the charm heroes 1 & 2 had WAS its imbalance of creatures. Heck that's part of the charm for every heroes game (or should be). Factions are not suppose to have equal strengths no matter what Ubisoft says! Warlock is clearly the best but also very very expensive. Even in h2 with the dungeon building its hard to buy all the troops for the week.
Income was very limited so a weaker, cheap army defiantly has its advantages. Once you get enough attack and/or defense those cheap troops can become very powerful. dragons are the best unit without a doubt but for 3000 gold and some sulfur they should be! (Talking h1 here)
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x-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted June 24, 2016 10:51 PM |
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The_green_drag said:
Part of the charm heroes 1 & 2 had WAS its imbalance of creatures. Heck that's part of the charm for every heroes game (or should be).
Well, Competitively speaking the first two games are a mess and can't be taken seriously, although Heroes 2 feels a bit less broken.
We are extremely far from the balance of Heroes 5 & 3:WoG obviously, but I don't play a game necessarily because it's balanced (heck, I even play a bit of Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 since 1994 and it's as unbalanced as Heroes II!!) but for the fun factor.
Heroes 2 is one of the coolest game to play ever.
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Darmani
Hired Hero
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posted June 25, 2016 05:18 PM |
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Really heavy focus on the Tier 6 creatures in this post. I actually find that the game is typically decided before they even come out. I think in the last map I played, playing as Barbarian, I defeated my first enemy player on Day 6 (yes, it was a small map). When playing against humans (which I've not done enough -- we need to work on the multiplayer after the Cyborg faction is finished), I've seen Green Dragons come into play, but never Black Dragons.
The Warlock is too powerful, but the strength of the Black Dragon is hardly the main reason. Moreso, it's that the Warlock, while intended to be an endgame faction vulnerable to rushing, is actually fairly strong in the early game as well. In the old HoMM II balance patch I created with UndeadHalfOrc, we actually nerfed the Gargoyle! We'll be incorporating many of these balance changes into Ironfist.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted June 25, 2016 05:33 PM |
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Yes, ballancing is needed because gameplay is failed. Especially peasants and dragons. I saw mod UndeadHalfOrc Reduction month growth of dragons to 2 is very good. But 34 peasants is still low. I suggest 100. Ironfist must be corrceted.
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x-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted June 25, 2016 06:57 PM |
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I don't particularly focus on level 6 - I just speak about the game winning strategies every faction have.
On my creature tier list, I also mention Warlock has insane creatures starting with Gargoyle (7defense + flier for a level2!!!) all the way up to Black Dragon: Warlock's only weak unit is the Centaur and even then it's not that terrible. Hydra's very slow speed (2) is compensated by their insane healthpool, stats, and multi-hex passive.
Warlock is just way too versatile, strong, and simply put, overpowered.
The only chances for a Necromancer to match a Warlock is either a week1 Laboratory, a week 1 second Necropolis capture, or a week 2 vampire lord + expert necromancy.
Wizard is way too weak early and mid game to match the Warlock, Sorceress can't tank and creep efficiently enough to match Warlock, and Barbarian's power is only great on S & M map during the Ogre Lord / War Troll transition OR if he can capture a better faction in this transition (Warlock, Necro, Wizard) and gets destroyed by every better faction mid/late game.
Knight has no chance to ever match anything other factions throw at him. The only terrible faction.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 27, 2016 11:14 AM |
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Actually is strange that you think sorceress can't match warlock, because when having the fastest unit in the game, no one is match for her, all she has to do is practice a few hit and runs until the warlock is down to only blacks and then kill him with all army. I rarely saw sorceress lose any H2 game, if played well.
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted June 27, 2016 05:00 PM |
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Not even mentioning the games with a big deal of navigation.
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x-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted June 27, 2016 07:06 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Actually is strange that you think sorceress can't match warlock, because when having the fastest unit in the game, no one is match for her, all she has to do is practice a few hit and runs until the warlock is down to only blacks and then kill him with all army. I rarely saw sorceress lose any H2 game, if played well.
Hey Salamander, long time no see! (2011 it seems).
Sup?
Well, before you take Phoenix + surrender price + 2500 gold rebuy into account, you have to farm gold & get 30 ore and 20 mercury for that (+1 mercury 1500 gold per phoenix).
Unless on an XL map with an income of 5000++ a day saved, Phoenix will never match Warlock's Black Dragon, let alone Green.
There are many parameters to take into account:
If Sorceress gets a Barbarian hero with Archery skill very early to farm neutral / guerilla early game, it can become strong.
Sorceress guerilla becomes infinitely stronger with Statesman's Quill (cost of surrendering cost 10% of total) but that's one artifact out of 50+.
The hp per week is 871 all things considered, and their stack can't grow.
Also, Phoenix might be the ultimate weapon, but the Sorceress mid game is one of the worst in the game, with extremely fragile shooters and no real damage soaker.
By the time you get 10+ phoenix and 20.000 gold saved up, the Necromancy allowed 3.000 skeletons for free and the Necromancer farmed the whole map WHILE gaining tons of levels. You weaken the Necromancer till you have no more gold (and you need a well to restore mana to be efficient). Then game over.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 27, 2016 07:24 PM |
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There is no such thing as comparing HP and classes in Heroes 2, because the mechanics are broken. When surrendering, you keep full movement. There are no artifacts or terrains as in H3 to counter hit&run. There is no need to be Rockefeller to strike with only one phoenix and high lightning power, and early units die fast. A H2 game is rarely going over second week because, one way or another, there is always one race in that game which is faster and will perform this tactic.
Once warlock has 2 dragons left, he is no match for full sorc army. For my life, I never saw a H2 online game which is going past week 3, unless both players are beginners.
Thats game is fun, but totally broken. And have you seen genies ability?
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x-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted June 27, 2016 08:04 PM |
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Salamandre said:
There is no such thing as comparing HP and classes in Heroes 2, because the mechanics are broken. When surrendering, you keep full movement. There are no artifacts or terrains as in H3 to counter hit&run. There is no need to be Rockefeller to strike with only one phoenix and high lightning power, and early units die fast. A H2 game is rarely going over second week because, one way or another, there is always one race in that game which is faster and will perform this tactic.
Once warlock has 2 dragons left, he is no match for full sorc army. For my life, I never saw a H2 online game which is going past week 3, unless both players are beginners.
Thats game is fun, but totally broken. And have you seen genies ability?
Genies (50hp, fly, v.fast) have a 9% chance to halve enemy units (10000black dragons becomes 5000!! ), which is simply put, the most broken effect ever.
But the fact that there are only some genies per lamp and generally one lamp per map means multiple stack of genies are much weaker than Burrow Mound (Ghosts can multiply xinfinite, Genie number is fixed at 2-5 a week per lamp).
If you could recruit Genies/ Ghosts without having to clean a big stack, or the Lamp/Burrow Mound was close to your base, there would be nothing but Ghost/Genies rush.
EDIT: The problem is the 2 Hexes Dragon attacks counters your ranged/melee wall easily by hitting two stacks at once.
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted June 27, 2016 08:16 PM |
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For a long time I haven't played Heroes 2 and there are things I have forgotten.
Do the genies really have this ability?Amaizing!
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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