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| Thread: Baba Vanga |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted November 26, 2016 06:43 PM |
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If only our trains were as fast as your buses, we'd have far less problems here.
Now if you'll excuse me I have to wait out 5 hours of delay.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted November 26, 2016 06:44 PM |
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That's because you took the intercontinental bus. Just take the local bus and everything should be fine. 
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted November 26, 2016 06:46 PM |
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Or just evolve ya damn monkey and grow some wings, fly everywhere after that!
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted November 26, 2016 06:47 PM |
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Sorry but I don't like serving the witch of the west, I'd rather have faster legs.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 26, 2016 06:48 PM |
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Btw, if there is life with consciousness out there, what do you imagine the Abrahamic religions' stance on that be? Will they be responsible of sin? Will believers try to carry "the message" to them?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted November 26, 2016 06:53 PM |
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They probably already have their own religions and their own prophetes. And there will be a giant religious and cultural megamix.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted November 26, 2016 06:54 PM |
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Or maybe they're muslims as well.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted November 26, 2016 07:04 PM |
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Edited by Neraus at 19:05, 26 Nov 2016.
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The problem is that we don't have any trace of the possibility of sentient beings in the Bible other than humans.
So, that means we have no source material, and we have to go with pure speculation.
First of all there is the need to understand whether they have free will or not, if they're conscious they should, so that means they can act for evil, and so they can sin.
However, the stain of original sin shouldn't apply to them, as in the beginning two humans made the wrong choice and we all wound up here, but they haven't done any wrong, so maybe they aren't even able to sin, so, should they resent us for not allowing them to live in complete bliss? (But can they have anger at that point?)
Unless, aliens are actually humans from another planet, humanoid aliens aren't a sci-fi trope but a reality and somehow the sons and daughters of Adam prospered other planets.
If they are conscious they are to be considered as possible destinations for the word of God, but do they need it for salvation? That depends on the above reasoning, if they can be slaves to sin, we should make haste, if they can't... That's another problem.
All things considered, it becomes a big theological problem, one of those that can only truly be solved through a revelation.
And that's why outer space is scary.
EDIT::
It should be common knowledge that Islam began from the stars, otherwise why should they have a meteor as their holiest relic.
They're aliens.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted November 26, 2016 07:10 PM |
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As for what we consider : we live on Earth.
Now if you fly "up" in space, you will reach a limit, which is considered the "sky", the first limit that we can't pass. All the rest is reachable, even outer space.
There are probably other creatures living away, cause it would be odd that a so huge universe had only us as forms of life.
Space has been described by religions. Isn't it written in Bible Father Neraus?
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 26, 2016 07:11 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:12, 26 Nov 2016.
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AlHazin said:
They probably already have their own religions and their own prophetes. And there will be a giant religious and cultural megamix.
Yes but according to Christianity or Islam, other religions are fake or altered, therefore heresy and their own message is universal. Of course, back in those times, they weren't even in a position to be able to imagine intelligent life anywhere other than the earth could exist, space was "the sky" in their perception. However, if other species with high intelligence and conscience exist, it will be a whole can of worms for them theologically, since such species will be biologically very different but capable of the same abstraction. They will be capable of understanding "the message" yet for countless reasons, the directives will be inevitably irrelevant to them. For example, maybe they wont be a heterosexual species, hence "marriage" wont be possible to them, maybe, they wont have property so theft wont be able to be a sin etc..
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted November 26, 2016 07:20 PM |
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@AlHazin
If you want you can get caught on the book of Enoch, which was technically not included in the canon for being too unrealistic.
Otherwise, there aren't references to other-wordly mortal beings. Just celestial beings and angels are metaphysical realities, not earthly, so you can't define them as aliens.
@artu
The prescription of sin depends on who is the receiver of the message, the only sins that could be considered universal are those regarding the being's relation with God.
It also needs to be said that all sin is technically acting so that you're more attached to earthly desires than eternal life, so it needs to be put in perspective on what these aliens think.
The Biblical law directly applies only to us.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 26, 2016 07:25 PM |
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What if a Klingon spits on a cross? 
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted November 26, 2016 07:27 PM |
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Edited by Neraus at 19:27, 26 Nov 2016.
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As I said, that relates directly to the being's relation with God.
As such we'll simply have to tie it up, drug it to an hellish sleep to prevent violent outbursts and then burn it alive.
Then proceed to exterminate its tribe, pagan aliens are the worst enemies of Christendom. Besides, Klingons aren't known to be really liked by their neighbours.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted November 26, 2016 08:18 PM |
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They were artu, they were. It's just that things aren't to be discovered until a certain time, and sometimes simply never.
Space has been described in Coran, or the universe if you prefer. True it doesn't state if there is extraterrestrial form, but it is stated that it is so because we ain't supposed to meet or know about them.
Quote:
Let's take an example. The genies that are featured in Heroes are a good one. According to the islamic philosophy, the Earth is divided into two dimensions, the physical one, and the metaphysical one.
Still according to the islamic philosophy, God created the genies out of a fire without smoke, anyways, they existed long before humans were created. And they populated Earth long before mankind did. Then when mankind appeared on Earth, they came up to meet. Now you'll tell me : if they are here with us, why don't we feel them?
Basically, it's a problem of frequency. We live in a same space, but in two diffrent times, and their is way ahead of ours. Yet, it is said that interactions between both races occured and still do to this day.
Now when you're reading what I'm writing, you'll think to yourself : nonesense, legends, bullrain. AlHazin is tripping just as Fred did. This (the fact people don't believe metaphysical beings on Earth), from the islamic point of view, is seen as God's will for races not to meet each other above a certain degree.
In arabic, genies are called Al Djinn, which means : the hiddens, those we don't see, as opposed to humans who are visible. From their perspective, upon meeting mankind, they named us Al Ins, those who forget, because genies are supposed to remember everything from their very birth. So they aware of us, while we're not aware of them.
Genies have heard about every religion, and have responded very differently just like mankind did. No prohete has been created as a genie, all were humans, and that is considered as an honor made to mankind. Basically : mankind > geniekind because we've been created through a diffrent process. unlike genies, we contain our souls, which come from God himself, since he blow from his own. We basically all carry a bit of God's soul if you want. That could also mean that our prophetes are the only ones to have ever existed. Genies are imagined as flying electrons, flying in space at will, and maybe being a bridge to other species thus teaching them the erathly religions.
All what I said, is according to the islamic philosophy, so you might want to consider that with a personal eye and judge it. Genies were briefly described in Coran, aliens not. So we can say that if we do not even meet those who have been described, it's likely we'll never hear of those who were not.
But anyways, the point is : if a race lives on the same planets as we do, for a very long time, and yet humanity is still unaware of it, we might as well assume that we've already met many others livings out of our planet, that we had interractions with them, and that we're just anaware of while they are. The question then becomes : when will we be aware of their (alien) presence among us.
A religious answer : maybe never. Cause we're like a privileged race that has to be anaware of the other races. This reminds you a lot, I'm sure, about how religions used to put mankind in the center of everything.
Sorry for the long post.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted November 26, 2016 08:40 PM |
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Edited by frostysh at 20:44, 26 Nov 2016.
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Salamandre -
Salamandre said:
Greeks and Romans didn't try to dominate the others for the sake of, but for resources and also because acquiring more power is in our genes, it governs our entire life. We will ruthlessly kill billions of lower life forms if their nest happens to be on some oil rich area, so I don't exclude we could be one day just some ants another civilization will remove, because our oceans could be essential to their survival -for example.
Nonsense.
1) Greek and Roman guys never was in the dominant place on Earth, perhaps the Mongols guys was the empire closest to the "dominating" , or SU or US, but ahh not a Greek and Roman guys, in this case they was ahmm, a common guys, they was  .
but from Greek and Roman guys, the modern civilization took a many things - i.e. a word "democracy" , but in this case Greek and Roman guys was no different from the others - India guys DEC numerical system (as I remembered), China - Meritocracy, Mongols - modern warfare tactics such as "Blitzkrieg" etc, etc, etc .. .
2) Can you show the particular "gene" of human, that is responsibile for a "acquiring more power" ?  Even if this "gene" will be found, the Genetic Engineer can easily cut it off, a genes <<<<< the progress whahah..
3) "We will ruthlessly kill billions of lower life forms if their nest happens to be on some oil rich area" - I think this is a result of a silly politics about "a hamburgers and coca-cola" , one of the possible variants of the civilization evolution, not a very good one, indeed  ..., its have the same connections to the genes as your hair, mr Salamandre, to the orbit of the Moon . I mean there is some influence, but I think would be better to discard it . . .
Neraus -
Neraus said:
Granted that Stephen didn't meet aliens, but that's a fair warning, we can only hope that IF there is life outside our planet and IF it's capable of reaching us they won't destroy us.
Not necessarily because they are evil, they may kill us in trying to help us, mind you.
Nonsense.
The aborigens in the Americas have a sensors that can detect Columbus guys - the photon detectors, the eyes of human.
If the civilization can reach us from a very far distance, they can manipulate with a space-time, this is obviously, they have a theory that connects the Gravy stuff and the Quantum stuff, and they have UNREAL powerful sources of the Energy
- considering this facts, to hide their spacecraft from our photon sensors, such as Radar detecting systems, Radio-Telescopes, etc will be like for you, mr Neraus, say a "Mississippi" .
So I can easily make a conclusion, that in this case will be no "Columbus in the West-India" or something like that.
Only a pathetic civilization, with a totally low skill in Technologies can be detected by humans, but this civilization is unable to reach us from a far, and obviously, our overpowered states, such as US, SU, and CPR can kickass of that civilization, if will be necessary . - <imo>
artu -
artu said:
Or they may be completely apathetic to our suffering as we are to the suffering of rats or extermination of bacteria. We may not even be worth dominating from their perspective.
+1 I am particularly agreed. It is a very hard to predict the feelings of the such mega-smart civilizations (if they exist) about the "little ones" as a human guys, due to the obvious reasons.
tSar-Ivor -
tSar-Ivor said:
Or just evolve ya damn monkey and grow some wings, fly everywhere after that!
Just delete a law restrictions for a manipulating with a Human Genome, and you will see ^^ - I am joking.
P.S. Connecting the human religion stuff (to be more preciously - a mythology ) and the possibilities of the advanced civilizations in the Sci-Tech terms, in the our close Universe, and their habits, well, I found this as a , hmm, perhaps it is not a very wise idea at all, be more preciously - it is just a waste of time . But who knows
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 26, 2016 08:58 PM |
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@AlHazin
Space is the sky to them with stars and the moon, its not this vastness with other solar systems and galaxies according to their (times) cosmology. All the interpretations that try to read the Quran like that are modern ones, the ones which are conveniently coming after modern astronomy. There is even the surah of Kehf, with the story of Zülkarneyn going to the land in the West where he finally sees the settling down Sun sinking INTO a lake of black mud. (But of course, nowadays it's all said to be metaphorical or that X word in the surah has more than one meaning etc, theology always finds a way off the hook, no matter how far-fetched things must get.)
And interpreting genies as "aliens" or whatever would also be really far-fetched, they are believed to possess people, some verses talk about houris waiting in paradise not touched by any other man or genie... When you say metaphysical, you make it sound like some Platonic abstraction but it's really straightfoward mythology with super-natural creatures, nothing beyond. I know when someone believes in a religion, they are also locked with the mythological package, be it genies or angels or Red Sea dividing, since "God wont lie" but from an objective perspective you must accept that these are not some discourse of a metaphysical contemplation in the philosophical sense but rather folk tales of their time making it into the books. If some stories traveled a little differently, such books might have talked about Gremlins, too.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted November 26, 2016 09:12 PM |
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That's the debate with religion, dear artu. We'd need some serious researching on interpretations.
Let me some time and I'll come back with some more stuff for us to eat
Time will tell us about that, but I think like it's likely going to happen way after we're all dead.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 26, 2016 09:14 PM |
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frostysh said:
Can you show the particular "gene" of human, that is responsibile for a"acquiring more power" ?
Well, power is a concept which can express a lot of complementary contents, not only brute force. From getting a better salary, a better house, a better social rank, a better social contact, better relations within your job and so on. From all times, most individuals tried to expand their influence, most of them at short range -the social range, then a few ones at universal range, like leaders, emperors, conquerors etc. Unless you don't care about dying in misery and lonely or remaining a total anonymous, every of us does his best to expand its power. This is present in any form of life, surviving implies a hierarchy and you fight to put all the chances on your side.
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted November 26, 2016 10:46 PM |
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Edited by frostysh at 22:57, 26 Nov 2016.
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Salamandre said:
Well, power is a concept which can express a lot of complementary contents, not only brute force. From getting a better salary, a better house, a better social rank, a better social contact, better relations within your job and so on. From all times, most individuals tried to expand their influence, most of them at short range -the social range, then a few ones at universal range, like leaders, emperors, conquerors etc. Unless you don't care about dying in misery and lonely or remaining a total anonymous, every of us does his best to expand its power. This is present in any form of life, surviving implies a hierarchy and you fight to put all the chances on your side.
mr Salamandre, dude , I have asked you to show a particular "gene" of humans, that is responsible for this Salamandre said:
but for resources and also because acquiring more power is in our genes, it governs our entire life
, but I that was a bad idea . I will try to be less sarcastic, as I can, because I do not want a ban
I think your bucket of a text, the one that is located up above, have a much more connection to the mythology and traditions, and its influence to the human societies trough a history , than to a real model of the evolution of the human beings society on Earth, genes, etc...
And please do not make a total similarity with a complicated human societies, and the a wild animal world, of course there is some similar things . especially if we gonna look on politics , but ahh, the human society in general, comparing to the animal world "societies", is like a Boeing 777 that is using a Gravity and the Air to fly, comparing to the falling stone, that is just falling under a circumstances . . .
There is a lot of models of the evolution of the whole human civilization (society, etc) and they all is very complicated, mathematical, and hell to obtain some prediction you need Super-Computers in use  Your "model" mr Salamandre, is looks ridiculous to me.
And please do not expand the ONE, single individual, its desires, etc (perhaps based, on your own, mr Salamandre, experience ) to the whole society, this a different levels a very different . . .
Well, I think the genes have a weak, a very weak role in the modern societies, and especially in terms of the government and so on.
Perhaps, some "genetically habits of society" was in the "rule" on the primitive stages of the Social-evolution, but peoples rapidly starting to make the attempts to control "the nature calling" by an effective systems.
i.e. by laws in the Ancient Egypt, the Roman Laws, the Ancient China laws, etc. And with the time, the role of the genes in terms of the whole society becoming more and more weak.. . Even a traditions, and religion things played a similar role there, and they actually has been developed to organize the society.
Actually I think this something like evolution of the information "transport/processing" from the Wikipedia. Which is obviously connected, I guess so
 Quote:
Schematic Timeline of Information and Replicators in the Biosphere: major evolutionary transitions in information processing
Sociocultural evolution
Of course I have a poor knowledge in this are, but as I can see, mr Salamandre, we are on the same level , I am joking.
Leaders, emperors - whahahah, this is not an evolution of human society, but usually a degradation .
this is typo an animal habits, i.e. when some ship starting to run, the whole group of ships can easily start to run in the same direction, regardless of the many things, this is so-called "a group habit instinct" in the animal world.
the modern human societies have a numbers of mechanism to prevent such nonsense, and for a hell good reasons (according to the History of mankind... )
about Unless you don't care about dying in misery and lonely or remaining a total anonymous... - mr Salamandre, with the effective government, the most of society can have a good enough condition of the life, if someone want to have a much more better standards of life, or if someone want to climb up above on the "social elevator" - not a problem , this will not cause any drastically changes on the society in general .
In general I think the poor attempts to explain the entire society in terms of "genes", it is the same as the attempts to explain the bucket of water in terms of the Quantum model of the single Hydrogen Atom..
And again, the Evolution is a very-very complicated things, so it is a field for a SPECULATIONS, and PSEUDOSCIENCE, of the any kind, especially remarkable example can be found in the 20th century AD.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 26, 2016 11:10 PM |
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You know what I mean but choose to mutilate it the way you want so you could pull those constant colored scribblings and the pseudo science coming with.
When I say "acquiring power is in our genes", it means it proved to be an universal behavior, as every individual used it to secure its survival and expand its influence. Even you do it at your -reduced- capacity, why else continue those bollocks else than trying to dominate the debate by forcing the others to give up, as I know no human who will try to reason a wall.
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