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| Thread: Why the Constitution is the Solution |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted January 17, 2017 03:52 PM |
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Are you a political activist Artu?
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artu
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posted January 17, 2017 04:05 PM |
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There had been some protests I had attended to in my twenties, but not recently, no.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted January 17, 2017 04:13 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 16:15, 17 Jan 2017.
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artu said:
There had been some protests I had attended to in my twenties, but not recently, no.
If there is one...what Ideology to you support?
@Verikker
You guys (and anyone else) should just listen to what IS said and see/review the quoted Constitution - and then see what has been abused for decades now. Forget the witch-hunt for the instance. I could care less who said it as long as it IS said.
Btw, everything said is being corrupted by someone somewhere. That was the purpose of political-correctness. And today's propaganda is just as effective on you as it is on ne. Misdirection is everywhere these days. When Truth is distorted & comprised, it affects us all.
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AlHazin
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النور
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posted January 17, 2017 04:22 PM |
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markkur said:
If there is one...what Ideology to you support?
He's republican , no doubt about that  a good ol' Turkish republican putting his stone to the great pyramid of Ataturk.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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artu
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Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 17, 2017 04:31 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:47, 17 Jan 2017.
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Most of the protests I attended were anti-islamist. In one of them, one of my school mates' father, who was an investigative journalist was assassinated by them with a car bomb, we went to his house the day his father died, so it was pretty emotional.If I was more convenient, I would have also attended the Gezi protests for instance, which basically included anybody against the recent government.
I am not a person who is strictly devoted to a single ideology, if we have to categorize, I'm somewhere between leftists and liberals in the traditional sense. I support a welfare state that provides decent education, healthcare and basic infrastructure to all citizens, decent wages and labor conditions for the working class, meanwhile on cultural policies and identity issues, I'm closer to the liberals, the left also has a nationalist vibe in my country, which can sometimes shift from anti-imperialism to anti-westernism, which I don't support. I'm also strongly opinionated about a secular education and politics, religion staying out of elementary education in schools, scientific institutions and political nepotism.
@AlHazin
I admire the man greatly, I differ a lot from the recent Kemalists and quite occasionaly, though. I am a secularist but not a nationalist, and from a historical perspective, Ataturk was not a complete totalitarian compared to his time's Western European nationalist leaders of the 30's but his regime is authoritarian by today's standards.
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Salamandre
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posted January 17, 2017 05:26 PM |
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verriker said:
if that is true then it is futile to discuss further because you must be so blinded by your affinity for Breitbart (or the views you think/assume Breitbart espouses, since you have admitted to not actually reading Breitbart) that your basic reading comprehension of posts invoking it goes straight out the window lol
Absolutely not, I didn't even visit Breitbart once, already said it, but usually when people start to use "fascists, nazi, KKK" a lot in their "arguments", it doesn't take to be an Einstein or have 3 open eyes to see on which side the lack of substance is. So actually, I am curious to see what Breitbart is, now that I see the level of attacks against.
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JollyJoker
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posted January 17, 2017 05:35 PM |
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Breitbart has just being caught fabricating news with regard to Germany - and a certain agenda.
Read the last paragraph of the wiki article, and if that's not sufficient for you, follow the links in the footnotes.
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AlHazin
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النور
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posted January 17, 2017 05:50 PM |
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I respect Ataturk for what he did in the first part of his career, basically saving the very existence of your country, it takes guts and willpower to achieve what he did, even though I believe he could only do so because it was all within God's will. He proved to be a great leader though.
But I'm still opposed to him, and most of his ideas. I have no choice actually, since what he did to Turkey afterwards was to make it "change of civilization", he (and Turkey) turned the back to the Arab-Muslim civilization, culture and language. He strongly believed that it was because Turkey was influenced, bathed in that oriental culture that it endured so hard times, and that he had to make his country leave it completely behind in order to save it from us. Believing in Ataturk would mean denying my own identity, origin, pride, language... etc. So somewhere I'm by default against him lol can't march along with an infidel anyway 
Not to mention he mostly inspired from the french revolution and you know that France is the enemy here, so he was quite rude with us.
I read all his story by the way, and found some negative things with his psyche, will share them with you asap. IIRC Ismet Inonu was less passionate in his nationalist view.
Tbh todays Kemalists seem a bit ahead of the curve for me.
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verriker
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We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 17, 2017 06:07 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Absolutely not, I didn't even visit Breitbart once, already said it,
you actually did but I will give you some dubious benefit of the doubt that you are not a reader or fan of it triggered into disingenuously defending it by my minor mention of it because I am a nice guy, although I do wonder why you jump so strongly to defend Breitbart but not even mention Stormfront lol
Salamandre said:
but usually when people start to use "fascists, nazi, KKK" a lot in their "arguments", it doesn't take to be an Einstein or have 3 open eyes to see on which side the lack of substance is.
for sure but it only takes one open eye to read my posts one and two which explain clearly why would one invoke KKK or Nazis in relation to John Birch or Breitbart, while it certainly takes no open eyes to ignore those in bad faith, invent one's own narrative and see what one wants to see for purposes of contrarianism lol
Salamandre said:
So actually, I am curious to see what Breitbart is, now that I see the level of attacks against.
of course this is called confirmation bias and is a perfectly natural and obvious reaction for anyone with a preexisting bias one way or another,
for instance I personally tend to get a bit more sympathetic to immigrants to Europe and leftists when I read your angry polemics on them, but I would anyway because I will already tend to lean in that general direction lol
I certainly hope you will have a look (another look lol) at that site and come to an informed judgement on its credibility for yourself (whether it ends up agreeing with me or not), I always take a good hard look at a source before attacking or defending it so fair play to you lol
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 17, 2017 06:23 PM |
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Edited by artu at 18:28, 17 Jan 2017.
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@AlHazin
Actually, the Ottoman Empire was already a Roman model empire in many aspects, so the culture and civilization was not identical to Arabic Muslim countries anyway. And "the Westernization" process predates him, going way back to II. Mahmud (1785-1839). But yes, he was much more radical about it and that is why I thank him the most. Since, only because things like rationalism, secularism, removing religion out of political authority started out in the West, that neither means they are wrong nor they must remain unique to the West. Ontologically, they are universal values, and IF Muslim civilization, by default, is incapable of treating faith as an individual preference, then it is indeed a civilization to be left behind as immediately as possible. Not realizing this is the reason they are frozen when it comes to anything from art to science, from welfare of citizens to law, anyway. He saw it, he wasn't apologetic about it, and that's probably the biggest reason why we are not in the situation of Iraq or Syria at the moment: Delusional sects butchering each other because "God wills it."
I strongly suggest you read this as well:
Link
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted January 17, 2017 06:29 PM |
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verriker said:
Salamandre said:
So actually, I am curious to see what Breitbart is, now that I see the level of attacks against.
...of course this is called confirmation bias...
<LOL> Opinions fit that bill.
<in the future>
When speaking on a controversial subject "I" will scan your brain to understand YOU. And detect if you went to blahdeblah.com with the same opinion now or if by reading the info, your inner-opinion was swayed one way or another. And you better have it right!
Btw, this new brain-scanning program is called Fact-Check, which does not exist yet, other than as a smokescreen for a political tool.
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markkur
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posted January 17, 2017 06:31 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 18:40, 17 Jan 2017.
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AlHazin said:
markkur said:
If there is one...what Ideology to you support?
He's republican , no doubt about that a good ol' Turkish republican putting his stone to the great pyramid of Ataturk.
Yeah I know. I had and have the right image.
-------------------------------
Folks what I would like to know is if you think that what was once called God-given rights are still valid? (take a breath and pause)
For this discussion forget GOD entirely!
Do you have the right to believe whatever you choose?
And does know any other man have the right to control you in any fashion?
Because that is what is spelled out in a true Democracy. And the video explains what was done. <imo> America is neither Democratic nor does it have a Free-market, so it is also not Capitalist in the original meaning.
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AlHazin
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posted January 17, 2017 07:36 PM |
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Edited by AlHazin at 19:41, 17 Jan 2017.
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AtaArtu.
I didn't check your link now, I was on phone, just confirm me that indir means download.
I'm still not convinced despite what people might see or draw as a picture, that religion is the main stake in middle-east, since it wasn't even back then in the crusades in my opinion. Humans are ideologist and irrational, but this description of them is overrated. I say that because upon some researches about "what humans first thought worth writing, when it took much time and energy" I found out that it was mainly acknowledgements of debts. I was quite surprised, since I thought I would rather find either praises to God or any other divinity, or love and passion letters. Maybe even jokes. But no, even in those ancient times it appears that it was money that was the most important. Shows you how much humans are pragmatic.
In the light of that example, I'm convinced that it's not religion which is the main concern of the different sides fighting in Iraq or Syria, but merely pragmatic goals meant to be achieved by all means. If we followed that logic then I guess countries like Saudi Arabia or Iran should be way more unstable and would experience more religious conflicts and uprisings than Syria or Iraq which count "less religious" people be them Muslims or Christians. Not to mention that the firsts have Sharia as law, while the lasts have civil codes near to western countries'.
What is interesting to be noticed, and I hope you'll agree with me there, is that odd habit to have Arab and/or Muslim countries which oppose USA or the West in a lager scale experience most fights and instability. Which leads us to politics once again.
You remember when you told me about the lack of some Arab countries' identities, and usually Turkey thinks that way about its neighbours (Syria, Iraq, Lebanon) rather than Saudi Arabia or Qatar. If you want an Arab's analyze of the situation, I would tell you that the countries with the most legacy to exist are indeed Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Palestine and Yemen. They have a "true" origin. And those countries strangely enough have to endure most of the "Arab problems". While some countries with practically zero legacy to exist which are Saudi Arabia, Koweit, Qatar, UAE, Oman, Jordan and Bahrein, they have the least historical state background to be a true nation if I may say. Yet they experience the least number of conflicts, and that being because they were UK allies and today USA's, the lasts which have great strategical interests with these new born "nations". I never witnessed a USA allied Arab country experience uprisings, and when that occurs, it vanishes at once. The same flame stroke Syria and Jordan, but look how things turned differently for the US enemy. Most of the Arab countries in pain too, are those who hold the most patrimony and knowledge quality. Syria and Iraq were (and are still somehow) known for that. Where a country like Oman is merely a "petronation". So to me, no matter how I try to put it, it's always politics that I see.
That makes me think that Ataturk with his choice, didn't really solve the "Turkish" problem. Does using Latin alphabet change the future of your nation positively, for science purposes maybe? I don't think so. In Syria they study medicine in Arabic, they are the lone country to do that, yet their level of teachings is the higher in the Arab world (or was, since I don't know what Syria looks like today). Our two countries look alike quite much actually (even though we're rather underdeveloped compared to you), yet we obviously took two different ways.
Oh, and I appreciate your if caring artu 
markkur said:
For this discussion forget GOD entirely!
Never
markkur said:
Do you have the right to believe whatever you choose?
Yeah.
markkur said:
And does know any other man have the right to control you in any fashion?
No. According to the prophete (SAAWS).
markkur said:
Because that is what is spelled out in a true Democracy. And the video explains what was done. <imo> America is neither Democratic nor does it have a Free-market, so it is also not Capitalist in the original meaning.
I guess. the union is strange to me.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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Salamandre
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posted January 17, 2017 08:29 PM |
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So. I visited Breitbart and now understand better the hysteria around.
it supports Trump, it supports Trump's views on clandestine immigration, it supported Brexit and it condemns the political interference of Islam (currently described as Islamophobia by haters). But there is one thing I noticed, every of its actors accepts the democratic debate, anytime, and this is not what I would define as extreme or fascist.
You guys should update your software. Those are not extreme views, those are CURRENT views everywhere. In France, even the socialists concluded that immigration must be drastically reduced and religious signs/interferences banned. Just to remind you in case you missed it or not already integrated, Brexit is done, then Trump is elected, and both were possible -in a large part- due to people exasperation of being despised and not heard by disconnected elites. Is over, the free welfare and scrounging to all backward cultures and masses of uneducated people who used to think the world owe them something. Is over, the moral rants because first you have to prove you have the credentials to judge.
When a majority thinks another way than you, you have to learn and cope with, this is called democracy. Sure, everyone is free to unleash his hate and frustration and call everyone around a fascist -if that makes him feel fuzzier inside, but there will always someone else who will point how a bad loser he looks. 
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Era II mods and utilities
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 17, 2017 08:34 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:47, 17 Jan 2017.
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@AlHazin
1- I changed the link to something in English already when I saw the interface, I thought it was going to be a direct download link.
2- Saying religion was not a problem during the crusades doesnt mean much, since back then everywhere was theocratic and there was no gap, but especially since the 18th century, there is a breaking point. I can go on and on about this but basically, pointing to the Golden Age of Islam, is quite like replying to someone who says "this app crashes under Windows 10" by saying "well, it used to work perfectly under Windows XP, so the app is okay." The world moved on, Islam didn't.
3- International conflicts and imperialism are of course part of the equation and I am usually the one who brings it up when it's ignored, but when you give countries like Saudi Arabia as counter examples just because they are US allies and they are not in war, you miss out what I'm really talking about. In Saudi Arabia, women cant drive, art is banned at an enormous level, there is no freedom of speech, sheiks give confrences explaining the earth is flat according to the Quran and that's that. Can you name me one 19th century novelist or composer from Saudi Arabia, or one invention from Katar? People live worse by all means in Saudi Arabia unless they are royalty, and if they are royalty, they go to Oxford or Standford to get an education, not to El Ezher, they have property and villas in Europe... Individuals, in war or not, are running away from Islamic countries, nobody is running to them.
4- Changing the alphabet (not the language), as I already mentioned sometime ago, was not as bad as you think since the Latin alphabet was much more functional, the literacy rates went from around 3 percent to 90 percent within decades after that, but taking one thing like the alphabet or the calendar reform on a purely utilitarian basis would be misleading, they were symbols of modernization and modernization was a real necesssity. Of course, when the characteristics of such a thing comes from a historically rival culture rather than inner social dynamics, there is always an identity dilemma (a great book about this subject is by Labenese-French writer Amin Maalouf: Link, not a pdf this time, just the info.) However, Islam seems to be stuck with this dilemma more than any other culture and unlike 19th century Russia or Japan or India etc, they seem to turn it into a pathos they can not get over with.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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AlHazin
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النور
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posted January 18, 2017 02:50 PM |
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Edited by AlHazin at 14:52, 18 Jan 2017.
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Well mate the alphabet has been changed, but I did researches years ago and Ataturk made introduced what we call neologisms which are roughly created words which don't have a "historical origin", for example you call that piece of cloth we put around the neck in winter "chale" which is a Turkish word, but it comes from the french chale, french that Ataturk liked so much. Words like zbentut and tqasher disappeared as you may see. This tendency didn't take great proportions though I'll admit that since I see you have kept many Arabic and Persian words.
I'm OK with you for Saudi Arabia, in fact it looks exactly like Yemen (Women live the same way, there are few writers or poets, artists... etc. And even the internet penetration is about 4% IIRC), the difference is that SA has much oil and thus is a USAian ally while Yemen doesn't have that and thus suffers from the lack of US "assistance". Believe me when I tell you that when the interests will leave the region the situation will completely change. SA, UAE, Qatar and Oman are all rich countries thank to their oil production, but since Iraq is too, it's that USAian hand that holds the powers in their places, while Yemen is poor and unstable which is pretty ironic as in the past it was called the happy Arabia being the best naturally livable place (whether, earth...) in the peninsula.
People might be stuck in the past, but that depends how you define it too. Is a European christian stuck in the past because he believes int God? Or is it because religion is separated from society and power that the European model is best suited for this era? According to Islam it is suited for every place on Earth through every age of men. Adaptability is something hard to understand and to put into play I'll admit that.
I have that tendency to consider that most of the time, the peoples don't change with the ages. If you look at it, Europeans have always been like they are, while middle-Easters have it their way too. Japanese society is quite developed no one can deny that fact, yet relationships between genders haven't changed and their seppuku way of living is reinterpreted but still present, regardless of religion. Religion has its influence, that for sure, but I see it as limited and overrated. Just try to find how many Albanians or Bosnians are involved in "Islamic" terrorism.
Being Turkish, what's the conclusion of that change Turkey made, for you? I mean what do you see as good, and what might you see as bad maybe from that civilization switch after almost one century?
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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artu
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Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 18, 2017 04:28 PM |
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The "purification" movement of the language was something else other than the alphabet reform, that was rather about nationalism than Westernization, for a short period they tried to seed out etymologically foreign words, Arabic OR Western, with Turkish ones. There are similar efforts in British history, trying it with words originating in Latin, the French are reactionary to English etc. So that part is rather a "going back to your own roots" mentality rather than adapting to Western units or alphabet. Of course, it didn't stick because any language is full of so many words from other languages, unless you are a tribe living in the jungles of Amazon, it is literally a mad effort. But the 1930's were a period when extreme nationalism was the norm in many cases all over the world.
A European Christian believing in God usually is indoctrinated in an already reformed version of his faith and the history, the theology, the 7/24 rules about everyday life, the relationship between the state and the Church are very different. Still, they also have their fundamentalists, bigots, young earth creationists, etc. The difference is such people are not the norm and they don't determine the essence of social dynamics and political decisions.
My thoughts on the Republican reforms in Turkey would be long enough to derail this thread, they are not black and white and there are too many aspects to what happened. Some I fully support (secularization), some I support but believe could have been handled differently, softer or in a more diplomatic fashion (reforms involving culture), some I directly object to (assimilation of minorities, population trades). But overall, I'm glad we modernized, it's always a difficult process but no one said it would be easy and I believe we still have a lot to do.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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AlHazin
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Supreme Hero
النور
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posted January 18, 2017 04:50 PM |
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Wish all the best to Turkey sister.
But you are right. We derailed markkur's thread which wants to move on while we speak of the past, out posts would have fit better in the Ottoman thread.
Well I re-read and it was his fault hopefully!
While we're at it, I've always wondered what Turkey thought about the other turks: turkmens, kirghiz... like any privileged relationships.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 18, 2017 05:07 PM |
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Edited by artu at 17:33, 18 Jan 2017.
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The general tendency in public is to think of them like our little brothers and cousins. When the Soviets collapsed, a lot of people, including some politicians, thought it was the time to act as the big brother, protecting and helping them but, you know, like doing it with the dominance and authority of an elder brother. International relationships never work like that, of course. I remember reading the memoirs of a journalist, going to Uzbekistan and there was this part where he goes:
- We should tighten our relations with the Uzbek Turks, we may establish a trade union in the future.
- Brother, we are very fond of you, too. But we are not Turks, we are Uzbeks.
- But you are Uzbek Turks?
- No. We are Uzbeks.
Something like that. 
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted January 18, 2017 06:06 PM |
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Salamandre said:
So. I visited Breitbart and now understand better the hysteria around.
Yeah...my posting a "single-lecture" about a "single-topic" and the usual-suspect bombs fly...Nazi, Hitler, KKK etc.
I thought it horrible when the ENTIRE Bush-administration stated to the U.S. - exactly the same damned phrases...now the Non-Media has the masses doing it and they do not even hear themselves.
"Congress shall enact the Laws". During the 8 years of the Obama administration, stats state Congress enacted over 200 laws. The "Constitutionally-illegal" law-lobby enacted over 2,000.
We are supposed to have 3 branches of Government not 4!
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Also, here are 2 important takes behind my reasons for the OP.
Casualties of the Cold War : Documentary on the Thresher and Scorpion Nuclear Submarine Disasters
Short of time? Skip to the middle and pay close attention to who is doing what.link
Watch the following on a progression of wars, to better understand the reason for my OP. It is all news-clips and no fluff.
link
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