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| Thread: Popular Culture |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
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posted February 16, 2017 08:43 PM |
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While I mentioned education, it's abvious that I also don't have any problems with "shallow" stuff. The purpose of education is - which is what I've said - to make kids AWARE of the fact that they are surrounded by white noise NOW (this was different in earlier times), and that their main tasks in life is NOT (as it once was) to learn how to pick as many (cultural) information as possible, but to learn how to PICK, and that involves picking the right thing at the right time, knowing what to like.
THAT is what education whould be about, not "refining" people's tastes.
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artu
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posted February 16, 2017 08:54 PM |
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Well, learning how to pick and having a refined taste are very much associated. I'm not suggesting, a single taste beats all by that but isn't learning how to pick exactly about improving your own taste..
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Salamandre
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posted February 16, 2017 09:43 PM |
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artu I was talking about a large part of the modern art and I specified it, don't be dishonest now. It happens that, by the very nature of my job, I teach and play a lot of modern (really modern) music and often it comes combined with various other forms of other arts, as vocal simultaneous polyphony, theatrical acting, dance, images and so on. Also I have about 40 years of advance on you in this specific thing, so I wouldn't say I am narrow minded and not interested to put any effort into it, as actually I produce a lot of it or directly help others to read then perform it. It is exactly because I know whats going on that I write carefully "a large part but not all", and we return again at what I was observing, a lot of people producing modern art just lack the training, skills, culture and sensibility required. Music has a inner structure, which has to remain functional and firm, people just write nonsense before they learn this safe structure, or they start writing even before learning or testing each instrument nature and technic specificity, therefore a lot of what is written in modern music isn't even playable, we must contact author and urge him to fix.
And of course, I never said there is a wall between Handel or Metallica, I just pointed that a very large part of the music we hear nowadays is indeed of poor quality and the reason we hear it so much is probably because the majority of people would be confused if a more complex music was performed, the music you don't just listen, but have to participate, also it requires you being comfortable with basic or more advanced notions, with other similar artworks, with historical environment etc.
artu said:
People don't consume shallow products more because of moral corruption, people consume shallow products more because they are easier to reach, easier to grasp and life is getting faster with so many things everywhere at once.
I don't know, how can you be so sure? How do you know that the fact that people mainly consumes shallow products and run through their life faster and faster will not experience a sort moral corruption sooner or later, a regression in their spirituality and creativity because education and forging personalities asks taking your time when learning to differentiate real quality from trash. I am not sure hunting Pokemons will teach us what is bad or good, not even remember the majority of rap culture which seems to be very comfortable with advocating direct violence.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 16, 2017 10:50 PM |
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Congratulations, you sound like a muslim fundamental.
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Salamandre
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posted February 16, 2017 11:04 PM |
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No, I just observe you every day breaking toxicity levels, thus I advance hypothesis. Constant aggressiveness is just one of the forms of moral corruption, you maybe should take a break with the Metallica thing and try some Haendel balm.
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Gryphs
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The Clever Title
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posted February 16, 2017 11:06 PM |
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America was violent long before rap and heavy metal.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted February 16, 2017 11:20 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 23:21, 16 Feb 2017.
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@Artu,
I agree and well-understand your examples.
I would add that when a person really has no options? (and they have no creative outlet) than most simply...settle.
I also think, though you did not call it by word, some of what you highlighted, boils down to "Moderation" slipping away from a growing number of people. Of course, what is the price-tag for wasting-time (what ever one calls it) that could be generally agreed upon by most as "excessive"? Maybe precious time for more Meaningful life behind an individual's own value-system? Some, no doubt, don't give a flip about that, i.e. civic-duty, or learning any of the formal Arts or Music and that's their right of course.
Moving on, if one thinks about it, "ease" is at least one major "Need" that is forever repackaged, promoted and sold. Here in the States, it is always welcomed with open arms. However, the evolutionary fact (to speak your lingo) is we do still have a body and that body needs to...get out and away from virtual-whatever to the real outdoors and interact with people PRESENT in all ways and to various purpose. But I know I am speaking to the choir here.
Btw, Your noise comment made me recall about a week ago, when I was looking for something on u-tube, a commercial came on that played while I had scrolled down. I kept looking a bit but then the irritation of an incredibly stupid conversation, behind purposely elevated audio, instantly became completely obnoxious and I thought WTH is that? Back in VIEW, it was the commercial for some show and had men dressed as women all loudly arguing what the hell ever. My reaction to that drivel, was good grief people watch this entertainment/crap? No wonder Earth feels more and more like the Twilight-Zone. Well, at least for those of us that have anything "other" to contrast.
Btw, watched Jacque C. for many years. The guy was half fish and even his Son thought so. Too bad about that eldest Son, he was a natural to follow in his father's footsteps. I think a younger son had to step in but I'm not on-board anymore.
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EnergyZ
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President of MM Wiki
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posted February 16, 2017 11:32 PM |
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 16, 2017 11:54 PM |
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Edited by artu at 00:58, 17 Feb 2017.
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Sal said:
artu I was talking about a large part of the modern art and I specified it, don't be dishonest now. It happens that, by the very nature of my job, I teach and play a lot of modern (really modern) music and often it comes combined with various other forms of other arts, as vocal simultaneous polyphony, theatrical acting, dance, images and so on. Also I have about 40 years of advance on you in this specific thing, so I wouldn't say I am narrow minded and not interested to put any effort into it, as actually I produce a lot of it or directly help others to read then perform it. It is exactly because I know whats going on that I write carefully "a large part but not all", and we return again at what I was observing, a lot of people producing modern art just lack the training, skills, culture and sensibility required.
Well, I'm not talking out of my ass either, it feels weird to do this but if we're presenting CV's, here's the section of my home library only on books of art history and "how to really see" modern art forms. Not to mention, when I was a teenager, two of my father's friends, one being his best, were gallery owners. One of the galleries were right above our home, so I was also very close to "the turf." The reason I find you narrow-minded is because of the way you explain your dislike, it's not any different than somebody who is completely illiterate about the topic: "It's just a blue dot, anybody can make that." You sound like you happen to believe the guy who brings us that blue dot is bringing it because he is unable to paint human anatomy or a basket of fruits, when in fact, they are usually through with such basics in the second year of art school. And once again, you may disagree with such philosophy but it's not ghetto music or reality TV and certainly not something that surfaces out because people are lazy to learn any better. Dadaism is from 1910's, did people lack work ethic back then, too?
Sal said:
I don't know, how can you be so sure? How do you know that the fact that people mainly consumes shallow products and run through their life faster and faster will not experience a sort moral corruption sooner or later, a regression in their spirituality and creativity because education and forging personalities asks taking your time when learning to differentiate real quality from trash. I am not sure hunting Pokemons will teach us what is bad or good, not even remember the majority of rap culture which seems to be very comfortable with advocating direct violence.
For mostly the reasons I already explained in this post, I don't see it as moral decay and certainly not the "blasphemous" kind of moral decay that is being preached in the video. The solution to capitalism's handicaps is not returning back to Victorian Era social code. I think, the video kind of started the thread on a very superficial and very polarized angle because rather than a serious critique, it's a rant by someone as ignorant as what he's complaining about and his bold generalizations driven by that ignorance is really annoying to me. If you remember, I myself started a thread about the effects of internet on our attention span sometime ago, it is not something I take lightly.
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Salamandre
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posted February 17, 2017 03:45 AM |
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artu said:
Well, I'm not talking out of my ass either, it feels weird to do this but if we're presenting CV's, here's the section of my home library only on books of art history and "how to really see" modern art forms.
I don't see your point here, I was merely talking about modern music, showing some books doesn't replace the fact that you can't neither read or make music yourself, so, imo, you have the choice of listening what I'm saying, ignoring it, refuting my arguments, but accusing me to not make the "effort" of studying ... music, sounds to me very arrogant and uncalled. For the other forms of art I will not pretend to any credentials but only express worries, see next.
artu said:
Not to mention, when I was a teenager, two of my father's friends, one being his best, were gallery owners. One of the galleries were right above our home, so I was also very close to "the turf." The reason I find you narrow-minded is because of the way you explain your dislike, it's not any different than somebody who is completely illiterate about the topic: "It's just a blue dot, anybody can make that." You sound like you happen to believe the guy who brings us that blue dot is bringing it because he is unable to paint human anatomy or a basket of fruits, when in fact, they are usually through with such basics in the second year of art school.
Is shifting what was being written part of the "progressist" arguments? Hopefully I can quote myself:
Sal said:
Take 100 random people, show them a modern painting with a blue dot in middle, then a Madonna of Raphael, ask them which is beautiful and you will have the answer, once for eternity and not disputable. And is not that a painted woman is more attractive than a blue dot, but about the message we receive when contemplating a human face painted with great skill and inspiration, with all the supposed struggles and conflicts behind -which we identify with because our personal experience, compared to a blue dot, which is just a blue dot and will remain forever a blue dot.
So no, I sound like a guy who is on purpose asking "why a blue dot is called art, why it deserves a place in an exposition of art, what it tells me about my nature or my unanswered questions, how it educates me, how it entertains me, how it continues the tradition of art where beauty is transcended etc etc". In what the fact that he can pain a human anatomy changes that? he painted a blue dot and you defend ... a blue dot as art. You totally overshadow the fact that I am unable to see any artistic message and you believe I am criticizing the skill.
artu said:
I don't see it as moral decay and certainly not the "blasphemous" kind of moral decay that is being preached in the video.
Well, I forgotten the video long time ago, I don't know why you insist believing that I defend the guy. I defend some of the ideas he exposes, the way he puts them doesn't change anything. The concept of decay is very strong and well feed in Europe, maybe you don't understand it because you don't precisely live in Europe and taking your infos from medias who use to paint our society as flourishing while everything is burning around? I suggest you to look at this link, hope it helps clarifying why I share such views. The link speaks mainly about terrorism and immigration so is driven, but the books itself has large parts analyzing our greedy consumerism, the fall of the education, the rampaging individualism and such things.
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artu
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posted February 17, 2017 04:52 AM |
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Edited by artu at 04:53, 17 Feb 2017.
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No, you were not talking about modern music, you were talking about modern VISUAL arts and your examples including the blue dot was about modern art, not modern music. Music is an art form of course but above, when I used the term "modern art" it does not obviously refer to music, not in this context. Since you are not a painter or sculptor yourself, we are in the same spot, both our perspectives are not of a direct creator.
And if we are back to your questions about the hypothetical blue dot, it can mean a lot of things or look a number of ways, depending on how big the picture is, if the painter placed it among a composition of other paintings (is it part of a context, a series of paintings or a single work etc.), is it satire or not, does the guy belong to some sub-school where color or geometrical shapes have symbolic references? Does it require to be installed in an environment in a certain way, such as right in the middle of a huge empty white wall to look intentionally insignificant etc. So the point is, you can not scratch minimalist abstract pieces categorically by saying "what it tells me about my nature or my unanswered questions, how it educates me, how it entertains me, how it continues the tradition of art where beauty is transcended etc etc." It can mean a lot of things, it can even suggest a question about the nature of art itself and you don't have to discover the ultimate meaning of life in every single piece of work. For instance, the fact that after 100 years, people still use Duchamp's Fountain to caricaturize something and that we still recognize that urinal the minute we see it, is kind of self-evident that it crossed a point and as a manifesto, it held some significance whether you agree with it or not. But of course, it's just a urinal.
Quote:
Well, I forgotten the video long time ago, I don't know why you insist believing that I defend the guy. I defend some of the ideas he exposes, the way he puts them doesn't change anything.
First of all, again, no, your posts have direct references to the video, saying you approve it, that the criticism is valid when, now, what you're saying is some of the things that bother you are the same, but what I'm talking about is not "the way he puts them" meaning his style or mannerisms, but "the reasoning he uses" when explaining why he thinks those things are wrong. "Conceptual art is not an ugly degeneration from corrupt souls because cultural Marxists put a dynamite into civilization's foundations by eradicating its values using moral relativism." That is his MAIN argument, his core and that is wrong from top to bottom in every aspect, I mean it's not even wrong because those terms don't mean anything substantial when put together like that.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 17, 2017 10:26 AM |
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Salamandre said:
No, I just observe you every day breaking toxicity levels, thus I advance hypothesis. Constant aggressiveness is just one of the forms of moral corruption, you maybe should take a break with the Metallica thing and try some Haendel balm.
You should try your own medicine, because It's you who is aggressive against, well, you name it, muslims, women, immigrants (and even in this thread you post a link that Quote:
speaks mainly about terrorism and immigration
), and of course against your understanding of "popular culture" and some of its constituents like modern art.
It's narrow-minded bias, and it takes the moral high ground as well - as is religious fundamentalism with its messianic drive.
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Salamandre
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posted February 17, 2017 11:15 AM |
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@artu
Sorry but is this some kind of bad joke? We talk about a work of art which has/could have, when explained by you, rich meaning, but it makes itself impossible for direct analysis. There is nothing to analyze, just a blue dot. How a blue dot contribute to the progression of art? Even if we consider Duchamp's fountain, he was a clever artist, at that time art was still seen as something that had to take a great deal of skill and had to be aesthetically pleasing.
The bottom is that context is NOT required in order to appreciate an artwork. However the context can be helpful to go deeper into further analyze and criticism, but the artwork should still be able to exist by itself, without any savant conceptualization of the context, which sounds to me more like intellectual masturbation done to explain the vacuum. When an intelligent person walks into a museum and feels that he can't get it, this represents a failure of direct discourse between artist and the world outside. Visual art is a powerful communicative medium and when knowledgeable viewers are unable to find the meaning from the content alone, it means art has failed. It is true that sometimes you have indeed artists who choose to cut themselves from this direct relation with viewers, then experiment on their own. Yet, in its great majority, modern art is clearly out of touch with both its roots and its fans, except a couple of aficionados. If people can't understand art, is because artists lost the skill of sharing direct emotions and they probably need artu to interpret their message. I strongly disagree.
JollyJoker said:
You should try your own medicine, because It's you who is aggressive against, well, you name it, muslims, women, immigrants (and even in this thread you post a link that speaks mainly about terrorism and immigration, and of course against your understanding of "popular culture" and some of its constituents like modern art.
Strange how my argues with artu go without problems, but as soon as you come in, the thread derails. I suggested to artu to ignore the part about immigration and islam because the point we were arguing was about our society decline, due to the reasons exposed in OP video.
JollyJoker said:
It's narrow-minded bias, and it takes the moral high ground as well - as is religious fundamentalism with its messianic drive.
In my comment, I suggest that we should cut with the stress, with the greedy consumerism, take our time and use our freewill to better understand and communicate, continuing the same way may indeed lead to the impoverishment of our aesthetic choices. A muslim fundamentalist, on the other side, may also criticize same aspect of your society but the major difference is in what he offers as alternative: the sharia, a hateful dogma which prohibits the free will, the freedom of speech, the rights of multiple minorities and we could go on for a long time. I think you don't yet have the maturity for sustaining contradictory argues without going incoherent, so lets play a game: we ignore each other from now.
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LizardWarrior
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the reckoning is at hand
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posted February 17, 2017 11:24 AM |
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Quote:
And if we are back to your questions about the hypothetical blue dot, it can mean a lot of things or look a number of ways, depending on how big the picture is, if the painter placed it among a composition of other paintings (is it part of a context, a series of paintings or a single work etc.), is it satire or not, does the guy belong to some sub-school where color or geometrical shapes have symbolic references?
It means whatever you want it to mean, just give me $ 100.000 bucks 
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AlHazin
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النور
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posted February 17, 2017 11:39 AM |
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Hey, what's this color nobody ever heard about?
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Stevie
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posted February 17, 2017 12:01 PM |
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JollyJoker
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posted February 17, 2017 12:09 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Strange how my argues with artu go without problems, but as soon as you come in, the thread derails. I suggested to artu to ignore the part about immigration and islam because the point we were arguing was about our society decline, due to the reasons exposed in OP video.
Artu is just more patient than me - for some reason he still seems to think that there should be a connection between intelligence (something you seem to have in ample quantity) and reason (something that seems to fail you sometimes, in instances when things "on your blind side" are discussed). Artu still thinks it is possible to make people see on their blind sides, but it isn't, when people have reached a certain age, at least not without serious psychological effort.
So I've given up arguing with you, because I know, nothing I can say can change a iota of your opinion - and vice versa, so
Quote:
... I think you don't yet have the maturity for sustaining contradictory argues without going incoherent, so lets play a game: we ignore each other from now.
this is actually missing the point. I don't post (anymore) to ARGUE with you - that's totally useless -, I just post to expose where your opinion comes from, and where you actually stand.
And I don't shy away from putting the correct labels onto opinions to clarify things. If you don't like that - well,, I can't say I'm sorry.
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Salamandre
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posted February 17, 2017 12:43 PM |
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Look, is not complicated, you poop in the thread and accuse me our of nowhere of acting like a muslim fundamentalist, just because I was saying our society may experience moral failures, in the future, due to our unhealthy way of living. By that, your logic implies that every critic towards our way of living should be considered as toxic -and probably censured, because this is the way muslims act too. I sincerely think that within such rotten logic, nothing constructive can raise, also this exposes other members to unnecessary and ridiculous skirmishes around absolutely nothing of interest. So I am done.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 17, 2017 12:58 PM |
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Sal said:
The bottom is that context is NOT required in order to appreciate an artwork. However the context can be helpful to go deeper into further analyze and criticism, but the artwork should still be able to exist by itself, without any savant conceptualization of the context, which sounds to me more like intellectual masturbation done to explain the vacuum.
You see that is your expectation but not every school supports that, to some, context is extremely significant and actually, context is always significant, it even determines the way you percieve classical art: John Berger - Ways of Seeing (This is also an incredible book and I highly recommend it, the documentary is also very insightful about the main subject, masses, popular culture and how capitalism changed things historically, this is how you really do it.) And the bottom line is, the schools that don't support your expectation are not necessarily "degenerate." Yes, conceptual art is something very open to exploitation and as I already said, majority of what it produces wont be remembered. But it's always like this, centuries are always ruthless.
@Lizzy
Now now, don't be so cynical about blue dots. 
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frostysh
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WHY?
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posted February 17, 2017 02:28 PM |
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Edited by frostysh at 14:31, 17 Feb 2017.
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artu -
artu said:
. . . At some point, I couldn't take it anymore and asked her why is she wasting her hours on this non-sense and made a tongue in cheek comment, saying it lowers the IQ even eavesdropping from the next room. She replied because it was non-sense, it just "emptied her mind" and it was a nice distraction from her daily hussle: "It's not much different than you watching those stupid action films, honey.". . .
artu said:
People don't spend all their time to be elevated, they just want popcorn sometimes
As I said, it is a form of very old neuro-stuff, which genetically for nowdays, I think so.
The problem, that the people that know Neuroscience and Genetics very good may use any of those stuff to achieve their goals for large masses of peoples... <imo>
artu said:
They used to broadcast undersea documentaries (all of my generation remembers Captain Cousteau) or some talk show with actual artists etc..
Ahh, so this is where the roots of "no genocide, no pre-plan, just a violent measures by violent sultanidos super-soldiers" burrowed. 
I am just curios, have you served in the some state-service like stuff, mr artu?
JollyJoker -
JollyJoker said:
While I mentioned education, it's abvious that I also don't have any problems with "shallow" stuff. The purpose of education is - which is what I've said - to make kids AWARE of the fact that they are surrounded by white noise NOW (this was different in earlier times), and that their main tasks in life is NOT (as it once was) to learn how to pick as many (cultural) information as possible, but to learn how to PICK, and that involves picking the right thing at the right time, knowing what to like.
THAT is what education whould be about, not "refining" people's tastes.
Easy tiger... Why you have used such Caps-Lock .
What you talkin about, mr JollyJoker - it is utopia, you trying to disable all marketing stuff, for an example of which about told mr Elvin. It is impossible, but of course it is possible to make some regulation and control from the side of the goverment. In this case - the concurrency will help. - The main thing, DO NOT allow monopoly.
For an example, if you will allow the monopoly for a single media on the market (TV f. a. e.), you will obtain a pity picture, like in the commi-/nazi governments of the past...
Salamandre -
Salamandre said:
. . . Music has a inner structure, which has to remain functional and firm, people just write nonsense before they learn this safe structure, or they start writing even before learning or testing each instrument nature and technic specificity, therefore a lot of what is written in modern music isn't even playable, we must contact author and urge him to fix.
And of course, I never said there is a wall between Handel or Metallica, I just pointed that a very large part of the music we hear nowadays is indeed of poor quality and the reason we hear it so much is probably because the majority of people would be confused if a more complex music was performed, the music you don't just listen, but have to participate, also it requires you being comfortable with basic or more advanced notions, with other similar artworks, with historical environment etc. . .
But you are forget about simple fact, the result that "shallow" and "deep" stuff creating in the body of the human - Basically, it is a small difference <imo> between 2Pac and mr Beethoven, in this case. The same satisfaction circuits stuff, the same chemicals, it is a matter of the habits and reflex .
As I said, where population was pity, and was no such "advanced" things as Internet and youtube-video - the "classic culture" that you talkin about, was a "popular-culture" for a large percent of peoples .
Salamadre said:
I don't know, how can you be so sure? How do you know that the fact that people mainly consumes shallow products and run through their life faster and faster will not experience a sort moral corruption sooner or later, a regression in their spirituality and creativity because education and forging personalities asks taking your time when learning to differentiate real quality from trash. I am not sure hunting Pokemons will teach us what is bad or good, not even remember the majority of rap culture which seems to be very comfortable with advocating direct violence.
It is simple - just remember how many Great Scientists and invinetion was in the times of "beatthovens" and today .
But regardless of that You have said some truth, because industrial times tranformed even pop-culture into a fabric product for money gathering or a propaganda.
Violence and stuff - due you remember the 20th century ad, mr Salamandre? Do you remember what a level of nonsense and violence and stuff that has been created by a peoples that have "a classic education", likes opera, classic music, marches, etc... and never in their lives watched SpongeBob?
Before the 20th century - was the same.
So "advanced", "deep" culture, have a very poor connection to the such things - imo.
Gryphs -
Gryphs said:
America was violent long before rap and heavy metal.
Yep, as the others of planet Earth too.
"... Obama like a superman, ... but he is no more than a blue-color man..." - 2Pac, Fountain of Youth, "Stress" .
Long before mr Obama become a president of US.
Besides, 2Pac has been killed buy a shooter, as I know. Just a facts.
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