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Gryphon
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 08, 2018 05:24 AM |
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Lth3 said:
Gryphon said:
-Resistance: I know that it was changed, however, lowering enemy spell power doesn't seem right since it also lowers the effect of beneficial spells such as Resurrection, Animate Undead, Summon Elementals, etc. My idea is that it should not only affect damage spells, but also Slow, Berserk, and some others...for example, Expert Resistance would lower the effect of Expert Slow from 50% to 40% and the hex radius of Expert Berserk from 19 to 15.
i can't say i have a stance here. as far as i'm concerned HotA is not after radical game mechanic changes - and this seems like one
Actually, last I knew the HOTA team was planning to rebalance the whole magic system, which seems pretty radical...
I'd say that Resistance shouldn't affect Berserk though. And I really think it should be a Magic hero skill.
The reason I don't like the present version of Resistance is because like I said, it also affects opponents beneficial spells. And it nerfs Magic heroes more than Might heroes, which are already considered inferior.
Besides, a high level Thorgrim can completely neutralize magic for an opposing hero.
Lth3 said:
Gryphon said:
-First Aid: You're completely right. I was just looking at some of the options in WoG, and one of them was that First Aid would heal and cure a stack. So a revised effect would be:
First Aid: Cures and Heals 50/75/100 of one stack
It would only heal without any skill. Also increase health of tent, maybe to 250 like Ballista.
i say it would still be rather OP if Tent could remove negative spells every round, but with 75 HP it's an easy target. so i don't know really
Well I think of it this way: the Ballista is like having a free damage spell every round that scales with attack and can be boosted with Archery. My idea for the First Aid tent is that it has a similarly useful effect, but also requires that you have to get and spend a SS slot for it, besides the fact that it doesn't scale. It would also actually help lower level units and be more of a threat. Of course, I'm thinking high level battles with many units and expert magic...
Lth3 said:
Gryphon said:
-Slayer: Double damage against Level 7+ is fine as long as it's only castable on Level 1-6 creatures, otherwise you could Slayer your Archangels and kill all the enemies Level 7 creatures. Good idea...
think of it this way. with Earth you have Slow, with Air - Haste, Water - Prayer, and with Fire you would have Slayer. even with double damage, it's still not that useful as Slow, Haste. given that Fire magic could become a more pronounced consideration in the choice of main hero magic schooling
The best spell in Fire magic is Berserk, Curse can also be useful. But I think that if the damage spells Fireball and Inferno were buffed, it would make Fire more viable.
Lth3 said:
check my post on page 25
Checked it. With my idea for Sorcery I realize that I just reinvented the wheel haha. The idea of being able to learn spells from an enemies spellbook is pretty good, it would be interesting...
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 08, 2018 09:47 AM |
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Gryphon said:
The best spell in Fire magic is Berserk
Personally, I think that title goes to Blind  . Of course, it depends on the setting. Blind is probably less useful in PvP games than it is in PvE games.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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portus
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 08, 2018 09:51 AM |
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Hi buddies, a few more ideas regarding these last posts of yours:
-About luck and morale spells: Perhaps these spells could grant the temporary ability to gather up to +4 (or -4) luck/morale points, consequently affecting the percentage. This "+4" status could only be reached with the spells, regardless of having a zillion morale/luck-boosting artifacts.
-About first aid tent (and its skill): rather than increasing the amount of HP restored, or even dispelling negative effects, I would go for a mass HP restoration, at least at expert skill level. The amount of HP restored can be lowered in order for it not to be OP.
*Besides, I agree on the need of raising the tent's own HP. Is it too crazy to consider an in-battle option to repair your broken war machines (at least via a spell)?
*Finally, rather than allowing in-battle creature resurrection through the tent, perhaps a few (living) troops could be resurrected after the battle (much like that Life skill from H4). Not many troops, just enough to make this skill interesting to be chosen.
-About Eagle eye, here comes the 1000th idea to bring back to life this awful, awful skill. It has nothing to do with its traditional description, yet I think it somehow can make sense under that same name:
Eagle eye will grant each turn the automatic casting of a random spell chosen from the enemy's book. No spell points needed, no turn spent, no spells learnt, no nothing. It would work straightforward, just as those living scrolls from Wog. The spell could be harmful or beneficial, determining consequently a random enemy or ally, respectively. The skill level will determine the available spell levels, and the power and expertise with which they are cast will depend on the enemy's.
-And finally, a somewhat desperate attempt to boost magic heroes: all the benefits granted by the two magic primary skills could be halved for might heroes. This is, where a magic hero would get 10 spell points for 1 knowledge, a might hero would get just 5; if a magic hero casts Slow for 4 turns with a spellpower of 4, then a might hero only for 2 turns, and so on.
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Ssssshhhhhhhpp!! Ah! (crimson cloud and I'm gone)
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Gryphon
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 08, 2018 10:51 AM |
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Edited by Gryphon at 10:54, 08 May 2018.
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Maurice said:
Gryphon said:
The best spell in Fire magic is Berserk
Personally, I think that title goes to Blind . Of course, it depends on the setting. Blind is probably less useful in PvP games than it is in PvE games.
Well...Blind is certainly more available, cheaper, and powerful even without Fire Magic. So you're probably right. But the idea of starting a battle off with 4 enemy stacks losing their turn and hitting each other sounds like fun too.
But if we're being objective, yes, Blind is more often usable.
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Gryphon
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 08, 2018 11:24 AM |
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Hello portus.
portus said:
Hi buddies, a few more ideas regarding these last posts of yours:
-About luck and morale spells: Perhaps these spells could grant the temporary ability to gather up to +4 (or -4) luck/morale points, consequently affecting the percentage. This "+4" status could only be reached with the spells, regardless of having a zillion morale/luck-boosting artifacts.
Well that would go from changing a spell to changing an entire game mechanic. It can probably be implemented, although I have no idea how...
portus said:
-About first aid tent (and its skill): rather than increasing the amount of HP restored, or even dispelling negative effects, I would go for a mass HP restoration, at least at expert skill level. The amount of HP restored can be lowered in order for it not to be OP.
The problem is that even with mass Hp restoration, it only really helps level 6-7 creatures. My idea was that if it could also cure, it would also help lower level creatures. And yes, the Hp definitely should be increased. I think 250 is fine.
portus said:
*Finally, rather than allowing in-battle creature resurrection through the tent, perhaps a few (living) troops could be resurrected after the battle (much like that Life skill from H4). Not many troops, just enough to make this skill interesting to be chosen.
That's definitely a viable option. My idea's better though 
Just kidding 
It's a good idea, although I would prefer something that helps you in battle though. I think of the Ballista as a free damage spell, so it makes sense to think of the Tent as a free cure spell. But thats just me...
portus said:
-About Eagle eye, here comes the 1000th idea to bring back to life this awful, awful skill. It has nothing to do with its traditional description, yet I think it somehow can make sense under that same name:
Eagle eye will grant each turn the automatic casting of a random spell chosen from the enemy's book. No spell points needed, no turn spent, no spells learnt, no nothing. It would work straightforward, just as those living scrolls from Wog. The spell could be harmful or beneficial, determining consequently a random enemy or ally, respectively. The skill level will determine the available spell levels, and the power and expertise with which they are cast will depend on the enemy's.
I think I would be overpowered, as it's a free spell each turn. One spell can make all the difference. Imagine casting haste, slow, implosion, armageddon, blind, etc. It seems to me that it should be a defensive magic skill, kind of like seeing what the opponents about to do and being able to counter it...perhaps it could lower the effect of an opponents beneficial and non-damage spells? Like my idea for Resistance, except that Resistance would counter the damage spells and Eagle Eye all the others. It's an idea...
portus said:
-And finally, a somewhat desperate attempt to boost magic heroes: all the benefits granted by the two magic primary skills could be halved for might heroes. This is, where a magic hero would get 10 spell points for 1 knowledge, a might hero would get just 5; if a magic hero casts Slow for 4 turns with a spellpower of 4, then a might hero only for 2 turns, and so on.
That is rather desperate 
There are a couple ideas that I have on how to balance Magic and Might heroes, which I will write in the following post.
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Gryphon
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 08, 2018 12:43 PM |
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It's important to understand why and how Might and Magic heroes are considered imbalanced. It has to do with:
-Secondary Skill exceptions: According to this study https://www.cs.virginia.edu/diochnos/research/other/heroes/internals/on_skills.pdf , ALL heroes will get the chance to get both Wisdom and a magic school or to upgrade them within so many levels. 6 levels and 4 levels, repectively. This means that a Barbarian will have had the chance to take both Wisdom and one magic school by level 6. ALWAYS.
-Favored Secondary Skills: The favored secondary skills of Might heroes (Logistics, Armorer, Offense, Ballistics, Tactics, Archery, Artillery and Resistance) are highly superior to the favored secondary skills of Magic heroes (Intelligence, Sorcery, Eagle Eye, Mysticism, Scholar, Ballistics, First Aid). And while it is very difficult for a Magic hero to get Armorer, Offense and Tactic, Might heroes will ALWAYS get Wisdom and a magic school.
-Primary Skills: As most of us are aware, Might heroes tend to increase Attack/Defense And Magic heroes tend to increase Power/Knowledge. While Attack/Defense bonuses are passive bonuses, Power and Knowledge are useless until you cast spells. Which means you have to have spells to cast. Not only that, you have to have spells that take advantage of your high Power and Knowledge, which are mostly high level damage and resurrection spells. The problem is that some of the best spells are practically unaffected by Power higher than 5 (which a Might hero can acquire quite easily), namely the Mass spells, Blind, Berserk and the Adventure spells.
-Play-style: Both types of heroes require different strategies for which they are optimal. Might heroes depend more on their creatures and Mass spells such as Slow, Haste, etc.
In contrast Magic heroes MUST cast spells, because if they don't, they will lose. And they must have spells that take advantage of their high Power. The problem is having those spells. This means building up your Mage Guild early on, which is a big risk as there are few worthwhile spells, you are more likely to get spells that you will never use. And you will have wasted a very high amount of resources. Besides the fact that certain spells such as Stone Skin, Bloodlust, Precision, etc are worthless in the hands of a Magic hero, since a Might hero will always have higher Attack and Defense.
At the risk of appearing redundant, my suggestions on how to even out these imbalances are the following:
Secondary skills
-Resistance: Reduces effect of hosile spells by 10%/15%/20%
(Including Hypnotize)
Favored Magic hero secondary skill
-Sorcery: Increases damage of spells by 15%/20%/25%
(Including Hypnotize, Animate Undead, Resurrection, Cure and Sacrifice)
-Mysticism: Increases mana regeneration by 5%/10%/15% of total maximum per day.
-First Aid: Cures and heals one stack by 50/75/100
(With no skill it would only heal. Also increase health of Tent to 250)
-Eagle Eye: Reduces effect of opponents cast non-damaging spell by x%
(This is a "Prototype". The idea is that the Hero notices what their enemy is about to cast and prepares to mitigate its effect. This could affect only hostile spells, like Slow, Weakness, etc. Or it could also affect beneficial spells, like Haste, Resurrection, etc. It's kind of like part of the present HOTA Resistance skill. Not sure how to affect each spell though...)
-Learning: Increase experience by x% each day.
(From WoG. It's the idea that I've liked the best so far.)
Spells
-Strengthen the weaker/useless spells such as Magic Mirror, Slayer, Inferno, Fireball, etc. I'm not going to get in detail because this post is long enough as it is.
I'm aware that many of my ideas have already been suggested before. I don't actually think nor do I expect that these ideas will actually be implemented. But I thought that I should share them anyway.
I would appreciate if anyone would tell me if it is possible to make these changes, or if it would be too complicated. I want to make them myself.
Thanks to anyone who actually read the whole post!
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 08, 2018 12:49 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 12:56, 08 May 2018.
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Considering how Eagle Eye makes itself useless in the long(er) run as it is more succesful, its use is limited.
I am in favor of the idea that it works on the enemy spellbook at the start of combat, triggering once. When it triggers, for every spell in the enemy spellbook, a Hero with Eagle Eye has a (small) chance to learn that spell. At Basic level, it has a relatively low chance to learn Tier 1 and 2 spells. At Advanced level, the odds of learning Tier 1 and 2 goes up and it adds the chance to learn Tier 3 spells as well. At Expert, it allows to learn up to Tier 4 spells, once again increasing the odds to learn any spell with respect to Advanced level.
Spells learned can be any spell in the book, including Adventure Map spells.
Edit: Earlier in this thread, I made a different suggestion . It can be found here. Excerpt:
Quote:
IN COMBAT:
Untrained: no effect (i.e. you need the skill to benefit from it).
Basic: Up to 3 times per battle, allows the player to look at the enemy Hero's spellbook and cast a Level 1 or Level 2 Spell from that spellbook instead of his own. Of the required mana, 40% is siphoned from the enemy hero. Adds the cast spell to the Hero's spellbook. Has a 40% chance to learn any Spell up to level 2 cast during combat.
Advanced: Up to 4 times per battle, allows the player to look at the enemy Hero's spellbook and cast a Spell up to level 3 from that spellbook instead of his own. Of the required mana, 50% is siphoned from the enemy hero. Adds the cast spell to the Hero's spellbook if he could learn the spell otherwise. Has a 50% chance to learn any Spell up to level 3 cast during combat if he could learn the spell otherwise.
Expert: Up to 5 times per battle, allows the player to look at the enemy Hero's spellbook and cast a Spell up to level 4 from that spellbook instead of his own. Of the required mana, 60% is siphoned from the enemy hero. Adds the cast spell to the Hero's spellbook if he could learn the spell otherwise. Has a 60% chance to learn any Spell up to level 4 cast during combat if he could learn the spell otherwise.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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Gryphon
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 08, 2018 01:10 PM |
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Another idea I read for Eagle Eye just recently, is for it to have a kind of "Tactics" effect, but for spells. Like if you have a higher level you get to cast first...maybe it would let you cast a free spell on the very first round, before the opponent?
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 08, 2018 01:12 PM |
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Found an older post, about the way the game offers skills on level ups and the logic behind it. The post can be found here. It details the logical steps with respect to Wisdom and the Magic Schools.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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Gryphon
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 08, 2018 01:38 PM |
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Maurice said:
Found an older post, about the way the game offers skills on level ups and the logic behind it. The post can be found [url=http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=42152&PID=1394646#focus]here[/url]. It details the logical steps with respect to Wisdom and the Magic Schools.
Thanks for the tip! Yeah, I had always thought it strange that it was so easy for my Barbarian or Beastmaster to get Wisdom and magic schools, until I saw that article.
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Gryphon
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 09, 2018 12:27 AM |
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I'm thinking of increasing the cost of all mass spells on expert by 10.
Slow, for example, would cost 5/5/15. Although I wish there was a way to choose between Advanced and Expert effect...
Anybody have any ideas on how that would effect gameplay?
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 09, 2018 07:28 AM |
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Gryphon said:
Anybody have any ideas on how that would effect gameplay?
I changed expert cost of Haste/Slow to 10, but honestly it does'nt change that much. I cast them a lot as always, it just means you will run out of mana faster and sometimes can't afford to cast them.
I would really like to separate those spells, so the mass versions are harder to learn (higher spell level) and more expensive than their single versions.
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portus
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 09, 2018 10:10 AM |
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Hi again. Sorry for not using the "quote" tool. I've tried before and I've felt quite clumsy about it:
To Gryphon:
-You're right when you say that my First aid plan would basically benefit tier 6-7 creatures. Well, I don't think that's necessarily bad, it all depends on your strategy, the same way artifacts like Ring of vitality or Vial of lifeblood are pretty useless for high tier units. I for one (and I really don't think I've discovered a new element by saying this) very rarely carry with the same hero more than 5 different creatures.
Anyway, if we add the post-battle partial resurrection, I guess that's where First aid would make up for the low tier lost units.
-As to my Eagle eye proposal, I'm aware it's an extra spell per turn. So what about it? You can carry up to 7 stacks of creatures. That's 7 actions per turn, 7 chances for might skills to shine.
Besides, the spell would be selected among the enemy's repertoire. It's not that usual to find might heroes with lv 4-5 spells, and if it's a magic hero you're dealing with, there's high chances you can suffer the same skill too. Furthermore, if you fear that you'll automatically cast a non-desired spell (for example, a magic arrow that could "wake up" a blinded stack), you might be given the option to discard the casting, as has been suggested a few days ago regarding random spell casting creatures.
I know it'd be a powerful skill. I guess it makes up for the fact that it'd only be useful in battles against other heroes. Besides, magic skill collection is in dire need of better skills (fresh news).
-We both agree that my idea for balancing might and magic heroes is desperate. Well, I must say that after reading your very accurate analysis on it, I back up my proposal with fresh strenght haha. The whole point IMO is that magic skills hardly have impact on a battle in comparison with might skills. Magic should somehow be more present in battle.
One more thing about it: in your explanation you count Logistics among the might skills, which is something commonly accepted. However, I disagree with that. I don't see why the ability to ride further should be linked to might. I guess the soundest argument is that "it's more likely for might heroes to get that skill because that's the way it was programmed", but if we only focus on the nature of the skill, it should be an "adventure" skill, just like Scouting, Learning, Pathfinding and even Diplomacy and Estates, and the chance to get these shouldn't be favored or deterred for belonging in might or magic class. Nevertheless, I could understand that some factions are more prone to certain "adventure" skills.
Now, continuing with ideas for balancing might and magic heroes, here is another (probably) controversial suggestion:
Might heroes shouldn't be allowed to acquire Expert level on magic skills and vice versa. My main reason to put this forward is how easy it is to get some game-defining mass spells. Mass spells should be ass-hard to get for might heroes, if not straightforward imposible.
And finally, FINALLY, a few more ideas:
-Learning skill would be seen in a totally different way if more actions apart from fighting and object visiting gave experience. Things such as discovering map or building up towns with a visiting hero present (this might offer a chance to enhance Estates such as granting discounts for building). This would help weak heroes to build up, even if it is at a snail rate.
-Casting mass spells once you have the skills shouldn't be mandatory. Many times I have wished I could hasten up (or slow down) just one or a few creatures, not the whole army. Perhaps with expert level I could choose how many troops are affected.
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Ssssshhhhhhhpp!! Ah! (crimson cloud and I'm gone)
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portus
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 09, 2018 10:12 AM |
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Edited by portus at 10:12, 09 May 2018.
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Sorry, my last idea is basically what Gryphon and Phoeneix suggested. I didn't read it.
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Ssssshhhhhhhpp!! Ah! (crimson cloud and I'm gone)
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 09, 2018 10:40 AM |
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One of the main problems between Might and Magic Heroes is that damage spells don't scale with increasing troop numbers.
I still believe, though, that the biggest ball and chain of the disparity between Might and Magic Heroes comes from the passive bonus of the Heroes' Attack and Defense values to creatures that Hero commands. I consider it the single-most biggest flaw of the game.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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portus
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 09, 2018 11:37 AM |
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Oh, and one more thing: Am I the only one who finds it extremely overpriced all the mage guild project? You pay 25wood, 25ore, 28crystal, 28mercury, 28gems, 28sulfur and 6k gold for what? Summon elemental? Magic mirror?
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Ssssshhhhhhhpp!! Ah! (crimson cloud and I'm gone)
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OrrinIsTheBest
Known Hero
Invest in your future.
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posted May 09, 2018 05:39 PM |
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portus said:
Oh, and one more thing: Am I the only one who finds it extremely overpriced all the mage guild project? You pay 25wood, 25ore, 28crystal, 28mercury, 28gems, 28sulfur and 6k gold for what? Summon elemental? Magic mirror?
I only find spell research for 1st lvl expensive,the others are fine. Elemental spell might be very useful in topes and magic mirror is going to get buff in upcoming releases.
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ericoz
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 09, 2018 07:34 PM |
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Edited by ericoz at 19:34, 09 May 2018.
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Gotta agree with Maurice. But that has also to do with the fact that the spells that buff/debuff monsters stats like weakness, stone skin, bloodlust, precision... Are all weak (except for shield) while also being readily available at the same strength for might heroes... they are capped at 3/6 and are not tied to power. Why a powerful mage with a lot of power cannot cast a stronger bloodlust than a low power might hero?
Also why isn't there a spell as opposed to shield that would increase the hand to hand damage by a percentage?
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Bonyth
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 10, 2018 01:00 AM |
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What do you think of this idea guys: Hourglass of the Evil Hour in addition to negating all luck bonuses, it would also increase time for combat (+30 sec? +60 sec?)
It would make sense since it's a hourglass. On the other hand, the artifact would be usefull against neutral creatures, not restricted only to fights against other heroes.
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Gryphon
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 10, 2018 07:14 AM |
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Edited by Gryphon at 07:49, 10 May 2018.
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portus said:
Hi again. Sorry for not using the "quote" tool. I've tried before and I've felt quite clumsy about it
That's quite all right, I've also had problems editing posts...as Maurice knows haha.
Your idea for First Aid is valid too...It's just that increasing the amount of health healed doesn't seem like it will change much, maybe in the early game. The problem is you have to be able to buy the Tent, have the money to buy the Tent, and have the skill to make it worthwhile. It's a pretty big investment, besides the fact that it's fragile. That's why I thought making it have another, more useful effect and increasing it's health would do it. Resurrecting after battle is also an interesting option...don't know how it would work really.
As for Eagle Eye, I don't, maybe it could work...it would have to be tested a bit. I still feel that having a free spell per round could be a bit much though.
portus said:
The whole point IMO is that magic skills hardly have impact on a battle in comparison with might skills. Magic should somehow be more present in battle.
I agree completely. It doesn't feel right for a Barbarian to be able to cast a mass spell with the same ease as a Wizard. I edited most of the mass spells cost on expert to +10, so Slow and Haste cost 15, Bless 14, etc. This gives the Might heroes a more difficult early game, while also making Knowledge and Intelligence more useful. Of course, once they get to a certain level it won't matter...so it really depends on the map you're on. In any case, I think that Magic heroes would be better early on, and Might late game. As Maurice said, the main problem is that the Attack/Defense of Might heroes are passive bonuses that scale with armies, while damage spells become less effective.
portus said:
One more thing about it: in your explanation you count Logistics among the might skills, which is something commonly accepted. However, I disagree with that.
What I mean is that according to the manual, the mean chance for Might heroes to learn Logistics is 6/112, while for Magic it's 4/112. (Note: I'm only counting the heroes from the 8 original town types, because I HATE Conflux and think Cove is too OP). So when I say it's a Might skill, it means they have a higher chance of getting it. (That's quite enough means for now )
portus said:
Might heroes shouldn't be allowed to acquire Expert level on magic skills and vice versa. My main reason to put this forward is how easy it is to get some game-defining mass spells. Mass spells should be ass-hard to get for might heroes, if not straightforward imposible.
Yes, that would be controversial. But I like the idea...It makes sense, really. At the very least it should be much more difficult for Might heroes to acquire these spells. Although it would surely turn the game upside down...
portus said:
-Learning skill would be seen in a totally different way if more actions apart from fighting and object visiting gave experience.
That goes beyond changing a skill to implementing a new game mechanic. I'm personally rather sick of the Learning skill anyway, regardless if it's changed or not haha.
portus said:
-Casting mass spells once you have the skills shouldn't be mandatory. Many times I have wished I could hasten up (or slow down) just one or a few creatures, not the whole army. Perhaps with expert level I could choose how many troops are affected.
Yeah. Maybe it's a bit much to ask for though.
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