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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted April 02, 2019 11:53 PM |
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I don't really use them, but it makes sense when fighting against them, fighting against (original) Peasants and Centaur Captains is not the same.
If neutral creature dwellings could be spawned randomly and neutral creatures had a native terrain, I would probably use them more.
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted April 03, 2019 12:11 AM |
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I honestly did not know that neutrals did not have a native terrain. That makes a pretty big deal to their offensive capability when compared to creatures that do have native terrain. I agree with you. Neutral Creatures should be given native terrains. That might make Peasants anyway, slightly more valuable than they are right now.
Also sand terrain...bane of my existence. I love moving like 3-5 squares and then having to end my turn. 
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted April 03, 2019 04:13 PM |
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As far as I know peasants were created for a specific scenario of the Tarnum's Campaigns where the population took arms against their oppressor and he was killing them by the thousands and having a bad time doing it, so it did make sense they were so weak and that they were armed. Now, that Hovels had found their way till the RMG and we often find areas full of completely useless dwellings, that's another story.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 03, 2019 04:49 PM |
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Peasants were already used in the AB campaigns. Was the first installment of the Tarnum campaigns already released back then?
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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Tapani
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 04, 2019 11:22 AM |
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Edited by Tapani at 11:23, 04 Apr 2019.
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Discovered the HotA project somewhat recently, and I am very impressed! Both by the high quality work (art and code), as well as the professionalism demonstrated by the HotA team. Hats off.
While I suspect nobody reads all the suggestions posted here, let me still chip in with some points:
* Whatever changes in existing game mechanics are being made, please don't touch anything unless absolutely necessary. We already love heroes the way it has been, don't make it a different game.
* Consider the impact of the changes to all different environments and ways of playing. Everyone plays differently - some play online multiplayer, some play co-op against the AI, and some play single player. Maybe have a list of 'scenarios' - and assess how the changes impact those. Do not tweak the game for one type of play (or map).
* Don't nerf. Nobody likes having their favourite tricks taken away.
* Buff instead the underpowered, to the point of making them borderline playable - but no further.
For example, some minor changes that might be preferrable over the current state:
* Warehouses are almost mines. Getting say 10 ore once a week, is almost another kind of ore-pit. Too predictable and too large gain, maybe make it a smaller random amount instead? More in line with windmills and mystical ponds.
* Add mass versions of the now semi-useless spells, like a mass-slayer. Increase the damage of fireball, inferno, frost ring, ice bolt, ... the list is long. Make mass prayer negate mass slow, same way mass haste does. Buff fire and water spells.
* To bump some secondary skills to usefulness, maybe:
- Mysticism : recover 100% of mana every turn at expert level. Not kidding.
- Sorcery : increase damage to +50% (or even 100%!) at expert level. Magic heroes need a buff.
- Eagle eye : make it a permanent visions spell as well (keep original effect)? At basic you can see exact number of troops, advanced the number and if they want to flee or join, expert also how much it will cost to get the joiners.
Also, if someone can send me a link to the discussions and explanations on why some of the new changes were made. Like why Sir Mullich is removed? Why magic resistance is nerfed!? Why galthran and necromancy removed and nerfed?
All I can find is posts saying "Overpowered!", "You suck at the game if you don't realize it!", "Everyone we know like it!" etc.
I cannot be the only one having had some questions about these... so what am I missing? Educate me. :-)
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revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted April 04, 2019 12:43 PM |
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Necromancy was so broken that getting necro hero would automatically give you thousands of skeletons by the end of week 3 and Galthran giving them +1 speed was ridiculous. Galthran is still viable on some templates btw.
Sir Mulich is the best hero in game by far, +2 speed for all creatures is so crazy.
Resistance was not buffed or nerfed, its still a very powerful skill as it is now. Its less random.
Balance should be made from the multiplayer point of view, as PC always plays like crap and it is never a challenge. Only when two players of equal skill play you can judge what is strong and what is weak.
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Tapani
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 04, 2019 03:18 PM |
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Thanks for trying to explain.
revolut1oN said:
Necromancy was so broken that getting necro hero would automatically give you thousands of skeletons by the end of week 3 and Galthran giving them +1 speed was ridiculous. Galthran is still viable on some templates btw.
Not doubting that there are maps where necro is good, but it must be map dependent.
What you say about thousands might be the true on very rich maps where you can get your town to lvl 7 the first week or two. Thousands still sounds optimistic. There are maps where you cannot even get level 7 until week 3-4. Maybe not the maps you play, but those are the maps we play :-)
revolut1oN said:
Sir Mulich is the best hero in game by far, +2 speed for all creatures is so crazy.
This is just saying "omg overpowered".
Still, I'd probably take a high level Mephala over Mullich in a final fight with large armies (stacks of 100+ level 7). But maybe this has been tested so many times, and there are tricks I am not aware of.
revolut1oN said:
Resistance was not buffed or nerfed, its still a very powerful skill as it is now. Its less random.
It is better to have some stacks not mass-slowed, rather than having all stacks slowed for 15 turns instead of 22 turns (or whatever spell power opponent has). Not that I'd chose resistance skill if I can avoid it anyway.
revolut1oN said:
Balance should be made from the multiplayer point of view, as PC always plays like crap and it is never a challenge. Only when two players of equal skill play you can judge what is strong and what is weak.
Agree. We have played multiplayer pretty much since the game came out - usually with friends and not online, and on our own templates. So pardon if our experience is not the same as yours. :-)
With my (admittedly limited) experience, I would say conflux is probably a good choice on a quick map where contact happens early, like week two. Necro on medium sized maps, but not because of necromancy, but because vampire lords and animate dead (Thant!).
The larger maps, where contact takes several months, I'd say Rampart becomes dominant. Only necro could (before nerfing!) hold a candle against diplomacy and treasuries. Are all long games on XL+ maps Rampart games, and coin flips on who gets to start with Ryland? What can beat diplomacy now on an large map?
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avatar
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2019 05:11 PM |
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Diplamacy is nerfed in multiplayer maps, too 
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Pollo2002
Famous Hero
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posted April 04, 2019 05:16 PM |
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I would like an optional option to play without heroes chaining (if two heroes meet, they both get movement = to the lower number, either in % or flat).
Im even ok if the option is "hidden". Just would highly enjoy having the option.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted April 04, 2019 05:25 PM |
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AI uses chaining. Closed countryside does maximum troops them. Now I don't play HotA.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Tapani
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 04, 2019 06:30 PM |
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avatar said:
Diplamacy is nerfed in multiplayer maps, too
That's by the mapmakers' choice I assume?
Unless this is another change in the game ... but the official changelog says nothing about any changes to diplomacy.
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Lth3
Known Hero
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posted April 04, 2019 07:16 PM |
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted April 04, 2019 09:42 PM |
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Maurice said:
Peasants were already used in the AB campaigns. Was the first installment of the Tarnum campaigns already released back then?
Armageddon's Blade was released in September 1999. While Warlords of the Wasteland (Tarnum's first campaign) was released the following year September 2000.
Tapani said:
* Warehouses are almost mines. Getting say 10 ore once a week, is almost another kind of ore-pit. Too predictable and too large gain, maybe make it a smaller random amount instead? More in line with windmills and mystical ponds.
But that is the point of the Warehouses? They are supposed to be a larger resource gain. Better than a normal mine of the same resource. And correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the spawn chances of a Warehouse rather low? I don't see them often on RM.
Tapani said:
- Mysticism : recover 100% of mana every turn at expert level. Not kidding.
- Sorcery : increase damage to +50% (or even 100%!) at expert level. Magic heroes need a buff.
Mysticism does indeed some much needed love. But recovering 100% of your many at Expert level is way to high imo. That would be the same affect as having the Wizard's Well. Maybe something like Basic; 15% recovery, Advanced; 25% recovery, Expert; 35% recovery. Or perhaps lower percentages so it would take a few turns to fully recover your spellpoints, thus not negating the importance of Magic Wells or Springs.
As for Sorcery, 50% again seems to high a percent. Because the strength/duration of your spells also scales with your Spell Power stat, if you are a full magic hero you will no doubt have a high Spell Power stat increasing the effectiveness of your spells. Add onto that a 50% increase and that might be crazily OP. Maybe just a small bump to the percents. So Basic; 10%, Advanced; 15%, Expert; 20%. Instead of the vanilla 5%, 10%, 15%.
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Tapani
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 05, 2019 08:12 AM |
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Oddball13579 said:
Tapani said:
* Warehouses are almost mines. Getting say 10 ore once a week, is almost another kind of ore-pit. Too predictable and too large gain, maybe make it a smaller random amount instead? More in line with windmills and mystical ponds.
But that is the point of the Warehouses? They are supposed to be a larger resource gain. Better than a normal mine of the same resource. And correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the spawn chances of a Warehouse rather low? I don't see them often on RM.
The warehouses give 6/w for noble resources, where mines are 7/w. The wood and ore warehouses give 10/w for wood and ore (mines are 14/w). The gold warehouse gives 2k/w - equivalent of two waterwheels.
From a mapmaker's (or template maker's) perspective: these items do not add much new to the toolbox.
What I wished for was: make the warehouses distinguishable objects that differs from the existing ones (not just provide two ways to do the same thing). Hence the suggestion of slightly nerfing them (to give more fine grained control of the resource acquisition), and perhaps add a random element to it. Resource specific windmills if you like.
Oddball13579 said:
Tapani said:
- Mysticism : recover 100% of mana every turn at expert level. Not kidding.
- Sorcery : increase damage to +50% (or even 100%!) at expert level. Magic heroes need a buff.
Mysticism does indeed some much needed love. But recovering 100% of your many at Expert level is way to high imo. That would be the same affect as having the Wizard's Well. Maybe something like Basic; 15% recovery, Advanced; 25% recovery, Expert; 35% recovery. Or perhaps lower percentages so it would take a few turns to fully recover your spellpoints, thus not negating the importance of Magic Wells or Springs.
As for Sorcery, 50% again seems to high a percent. Because the strength/duration of your spells also scales with your Spell Power stat, if you are a full magic hero you will no doubt have a high Spell Power stat increasing the effectiveness of your spells. Add onto that a 50% increase and that might be crazily OP. Maybe just a small bump to the percents. So Basic; 10%, Advanced; 15%, Expert; 20%. Instead of the vanilla 5%, 10%, 15%.
So for 20% instead of 15% sorcery damage, you would start consider selecting sorcery with your main hero?
That is how I thought about mysticism as well: what would it take for me to consider mysticism on my main hero. And to be honest, even at 100% I probably would try to prioritize other skills. Magic wells are quite common anyway.
About spell damage, where that is very useful early on - but at least in my experience damage spells are not useful after the beginning. It is mass spells and clone for damage. A cloned lvl 7 stack deals often more damage than an implosion (or two), and sucks up one enemy attack that turn.
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revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted April 05, 2019 10:07 AM |
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Tapani said:
Thanks for trying to explain.
revolut1oN said:
Necromancy was so broken that getting necro hero would automatically give you thousands of skeletons by the end of week 3 and Galthran giving them +1 speed was ridiculous. Galthran is still viable on some templates btw.
Not doubting that there are maps where necro is good, but it must be map dependent.
What you say about thousands might be the true on very rich maps where you can get your town to lvl 7 the first week or two. Thousands still sounds optimistic. There are maps where you cannot even get level 7 until week 3-4. Maybe not the maps you play, but those are the maps we play :-)
revolut1oN said:
Sir Mulich is the best hero in game by far, +2 speed for all creatures is so crazy.
This is just saying "omg overpowered".
Still, I'd probably take a high level Mephala over Mullich in a final fight with large armies (stacks of 100+ level 7). But maybe this has been tested so many times, and there are tricks I am not aware of.
revolut1oN said:
Resistance was not buffed or nerfed, its still a very powerful skill as it is now. Its less random.
It is better to have some stacks not mass-slowed, rather than having all stacks slowed for 15 turns instead of 22 turns (or whatever spell power opponent has). Not that I'd chose resistance skill if I can avoid it anyway.
revolut1oN said:
Balance should be made from the multiplayer point of view, as PC always plays like crap and it is never a challenge. Only when two players of equal skill play you can judge what is strong and what is weak.
Agree. We have played multiplayer pretty much since the game came out - usually with friends and not online, and on our own templates. So pardon if our experience is not the same as yours. :-)
With my (admittedly limited) experience, I would say conflux is probably a good choice on a quick map where contact happens early, like week two. Necro on medium sized maps, but not because of necromancy, but because vampire lords and animate dead (Thant!).
The larger maps, where contact takes several months, I'd say Rampart becomes dominant. Only necro could (before nerfing!) hold a candle against diplomacy and treasuries. Are all long games on XL+ maps Rampart games, and coin flips on who gets to start with Ryland? What can beat diplomacy now on an large map?
Sorry.
That proves you have no idea about normal multiplayer and how high-skill games go. When I'm back from work I will clarify all the stuff for you.
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Erathianer
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 05, 2019 11:22 AM |
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Oddball13579 said:
Erathianer said:
I recommend making peasants more strong. At least increase their health from 1 to 2 hp. They are human beings and 1 hp is just too low for that. Also attack and defence should be 2. I get the point of making a really weak creature with stats of 1 everywhere but for a human being as I said it's too low imo. They have even weapons in their hands.
Even if you raised their attack and defense stat to 2, or raised their hp to 2, those are pretty minor changes. And when compared to other level 1 units, minuscule. It would do nothing in the grand scheme of things. All it would do is make them equal to Pixies. Which are still the worst starting units of any town.
Besides, Peasants are supposed to be the weakest unit in the game. They are after all just peasants. Just farmers waving pitchforks around 
look at a swordsman, how much hp does he have, 35? ok he is a well trained soldier with armor but compare this to the peasents. they are also human beings with 1 hp lol! giving peasants 2 hp instead of 1 hp is kind of a big change for them. it means doubling the hp, which means that only the half of peasants would die from attacks than before. also dmg could be 1-2.
if making a creature with 1 everywhere why not choose a smaller being like a giant rat ?
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted April 05, 2019 12:15 PM |
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Peasants are even worse than pixies, which are what 1/2 feet tall?!
And skeletons are about 4-6 times stronger than peasants!
Now if Peasant where renamed and changed it's appearance into "Demented old man on the brink of death" then the 1 1 1 stats might be a bit more believable.
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revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted April 05, 2019 01:08 PM |
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Tapani said:
Not doubting that there are maps where necro is good, but it must be map dependent. What you say about thousands might be the true on very rich maps where you can get your town to lvl 7 the first week or two
Any template gives you easily thousand+ of skeletons week 3 with SoD necromancy, even relatively poor one like H3DM1 or 6lm. What you need is proper chaining and positioning + prioritizing banks like Imp Caches which easily give 100+ skeletons per bank, also Necro Amp + more than 1 necro hero. Please watch some pro gameplay and then judge.
Also, most towns shouldn't even bother with building level 7 dwelling as its probably not worth it and its better to go for faster mage guild or utility buildings like vortex, skeleton transformer, library, stables etc. Of course there are some exceptions (Castle, Stronghold, Tower in most cases)
Tapani said:
Maybe not the maps you play, but those are the maps we play :-)
First of all, in multiplayer nobody plays maps. Everybody plays templates. There are no templates "I" play, there are only those accepted and widely used by community. As I said, even on the very poor templates necro is ridiculously OP thanks to thousands of skeleton. On poor templates its even stronger as it can get huge army basically for free.
Tapani said:
This is just saying "omg overpowered".
Still, I'd probably take a high level Mephala over Mullich in a final fight with large armies (stacks of 100+ level 7). But maybe this has been tested so many times, and there are tricks I am not aware of.
Mephala is useless. Tazar/Hack/Gundula on the other hand can be very strong, but their specialty starts to shine at level 10 or more. By that time, Mullich thanks to imba specialty will already be at level 20+ with vastly superior army and most of the map cleared. In map clearing +2 speed gives enormous advantage, as you can for example easily clear Wolf Pickets with even Halbardiers lol, how broken is that? It also allows you to easily lure neutral stacks with even slow units so much easier Conservatories or Exp. Shops. In the final battle initiative during the normal or wait phase of battle often means life or death. And here you get it for free.
Also, nobody in serious multiplayers wait for few months to accumulate stacks of 100+ level 7. When 2 decent players clash games rarely go over week 4 even on very poor XL maps.
Tapani said:
It is better to have some stacks not mass-slowed, rather than having all stacks slowed for 15 turns instead of 22 turns (or whatever spell power opponent has). Not that I'd chose resistance skill if I can avoid it anyway.
Mass slow is actually kinda rarely used in final battles as it can be very easily punished in most cases. Resistance is an answer to spells like Implosion, Summon Earth Elemental or Armageddon. As spell power is the most important during final fight, its damn important to reduce it as much as you can. Ive seen many many fights when bigger army led by a better hero got wrekt because enemy had like -60% spellpower from skill and artifacts.
Previous resistance was a joke as it was completely imbalanced. Imagine beating your opponent and besting him by using your skill and superior army and then your implosion misses because of his 30% random resist, and his implosion goes through completely ignoring your resist and thus wrecking your army. No skill, just pure luck.
Tapani said:
Agree. We have played multiplayer pretty much since the game came out - usually with friends and not online, and on our own templates. So pardon if our experience is not the same as yours. :-)
OK, but playing with your buddies means the game is limited to a few people playing in a hermetic environment on roughly equal level, means it does not allow your skill to go up and improve. It does not represent real high level of PVP match by no means, thats why I try to make things clear for you. While I'm answering your question in detail you make crazy points trying to convince me I"m wrong. If you are interested in more details, just watch some pros playing and all will start to make sense, it will also prove my points even further.
Tapani said:
With my (admittedly limited) experience, I would say conflux is probably a good choice on a quick map where contact happens early, like week two. Necro on medium sized maps, but not because of necromancy, but because vampire lords and animate dead (Thant!)
Conflux is one of the strongest on all kind of maps. Easily every hero with DD and TP thanks to University, initiative and strong heroes like Luna or Grindan. Necro is imba thanks to mainly skeletons, Animate Dead not needing any kind of expertise to be permanent and to a lesser extent thanks to VL.
Tapani said:
The larger maps, where contact takes several months, I'd say Rampart becomes dominant. Only necro could (before nerfing!) hold a candle against diplomacy and treasuries. Are all long games on XL+ maps Rampart games, and coin flips on who gets to start with Ryland? What can beat diplomacy now on an large map?
As Diplomacy is a joke and makes game change into boring grind fiesta when you just jump from stack to stack to collect free army it is obviously banned by HW rules.
I hope this rather lengthy answer can dispel your doubts. These points could have been easily overlooked by someone playing only with friends and avoiding high level competition. If you are still curious, feel free to ask.
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Lth3
Known Hero
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posted April 05, 2019 02:01 PM |
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Mysticism at 5/10/20 and Sorcery at 10/20/30 ( 5/10/20 for all effective spells ) is definitely more than enough
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Djangoo
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 05, 2019 04:15 PM |
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Edited by Djangoo at 16:18, 05 Apr 2019.
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Tapani said:
* Whatever changes in existing game mechanics are being made, please don't touch anything unless absolutely necessary. We already love heroes the way it has been, don't make it a different game.
- Mysticism : recover 100% of mana every turn at expert level. Not kidding.
- Sorcery : increase damage to +50% (or even 100%!) at expert level. Magic heroes need a buff.
lel
I made minor tweaks to casters: buff dmg of some bad spells, Sorcery 10/20/30% at Expert,4/8/12 points at Expert Mysticsm and more chance to gain Spellpower instead of Knowledge + Eagle Eye banned and casters become super viable if not broken on small maps. Small balance changes >> broken stuff, but HotA team knows this already; heroes III overall is pretty well balanced and small subtle changes change "meta" very quickly
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