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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted November 04, 2019 07:13 AM |
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Well then at least make replacement heroes for the 3 heroes starting with Diplomacy and the 3 Logistics specialists, as they are completely OP. (Perhaps also the Offense, Armorer and Intelligence specialists.)
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted November 04, 2019 09:16 AM |
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MattII said:
Urgh, we don't need more heroes, there's enough already. What we do need is an increase in the number of heroes per player.
Well I dont see a problem with active heroes, its some more management and imho it should stay that way, coz it differs player skill to work with it. The problem I see is most heroes have just bad prim/sec skills, wrong combos and or useless speciality. The intention of adding new is... you dont need to change the old ones that much but have new ones to balance. Also a chance to have some useful heroes. Fortress for example has witches and beastmaster... both dont have any good potential if it comes to offense this could change with a new hero type, adding more variety.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted November 04, 2019 12:18 PM |
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P4R4D0X0N said:
Fortress for example has witches and beastmaster... both dont have any good potential if it comes to offense this could change with a new hero type, adding more variety.
fortress with offense specialist?!? I don't think it's a good idea. It makes no sense for a defensive town to specialize in offense, and it would also be imbalanced. Fortress' strength lies in their defense + their creatures' abilities. 5/7 of Fortress' creatures can debuff, disable or downright kill, and if you make them also offensive only Necro would be able to defeat Fortress
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 04, 2019 07:39 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 20:06, 04 Nov 2019.
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P4R4D0X0N said:
MattII said:
Urgh, we don't need more heroes, there's enough already. What we do need is an increase in the number of heroes per player.
Well I dont see a problem with active heroes, its some more management and imho it should stay that way, coz it differs player skill to work with it. The problem I see is most heroes have just bad prim/sec skills, wrong combos and or useless speciality. The intention of adding new is... you dont need to change the old ones that much but have new ones to balance. Also a chance to have some useful heroes. Fortress for example has witches and beastmaster... both dont have any good potential if it comes to offense this could change with a new hero type, adding more variety.
They've added three map sizes, so eight heroes per player is no longer enough.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted November 05, 2019 09:38 AM |
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MattII said:
P4R4D0X0N said:
MattII said:
Urgh, we don't need more heroes, there's enough already. What we do need is an increase in the number of heroes per player.
Well I dont see a problem with active heroes, its some more management and imho it should stay that way, coz it differs player skill to work with it. The problem I see is most heroes have just bad prim/sec skills, wrong combos and or useless speciality. The intention of adding new is... you dont need to change the old ones that much but have new ones to balance. Also a chance to have some useful heroes. Fortress for example has witches and beastmaster... both dont have any good potential if it comes to offense this could change with a new hero type, adding more variety.
They've added three map sizes, so eight heroes per player is no longer enough.
Even for G maps its more than enough imho... But thats just my opinions... since you have TP and DD anyway
monere said:
P4R4D0X0N said:
Fortress for example has witches and beastmaster... both dont have any good potential if it comes to offense this could change with a new hero type, adding more variety.
fortress with offense specialist?!? I don't think it's a good idea. It makes no sense for a defensive town to specialize in offense, and it would also be imbalanced. Fortress' strength lies in their defense + their creatures' abilities. 5/7 of Fortress' creatures can debuff, disable or downright kill, and if you make them also offensive only Necro would be able to defeat Fortress
Was maybe a drastic example. But I think you get what I meant... even if its some more offense gain than other hero types it has more depth in case of playing the town/hero
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mihaid
Hired Hero
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posted November 05, 2019 11:52 AM |
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Edited by mihaid at 11:54, 05 Nov 2019.
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Here's a fun one for the entire family:
On very big maps there are usually a lot of portals and it's easy to get lost or forget which portal leads where.
So my suggestion is, if I've already been through a portal, let me right click on it and show me the other side. It could "teleport" the view (similar to Replay opponent's turn or the Quest Log).
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted November 05, 2019 12:06 PM |
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P4R4D0X0N said:
Was maybe a drastic example. But I think you get what I meant... even if its some more offense gain than other hero types it has more depth in case of playing the town/hero
yes, I got your point but it can't be done in a balanced way.
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nordos
Known Hero
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posted November 05, 2019 12:54 PM |
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monere said:
P4R4D0X0N said:
Was maybe a drastic example. But I think you get what I meant... even if its some more offense gain than other hero types it has more depth in case of playing the town/hero
yes, I got your point but it can't be done in a balanced way.
First of all, Fortress is trash. It is the single worst faction, and it has several reasons for it:
1) low mage guild
2) no really good ranged, the fliers die like literal flies (makes it hard to siege)
3) and to add to it, the heroes are bad. Most of the times you would really love to get Crag Hack or similar instead of a native Hero. That is bad design in my opinion.
So, how would it make overpowered if there is an att focused heroclass, when you actually hope for getting a decent barbarian? It would at least reduce the RNG, since not always is it possible to get a decent hero in the selection.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted November 05, 2019 05:27 PM |
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nordos said:
First of all, Fortress is trash. It is the single worst faction, and it has several reasons for it:
1) low mage guild
2) no really good ranged, the fliers die like literal flies (makes it hard to siege)
3) and to add to it, the heroes are bad. Most of the times you would really love to get Crag Hack or similar instead of a native Hero. That is bad design in my opinion.
So, how would it make overpowered if there is an att focused heroclass, when you actually hope for getting a decent barbarian? It would at least reduce the RNG, since not always is it possible to get a decent hero in the selection.
Not to forget HotA Team already replaced most of the "Dragon Fly Hives" in the first place reducing wyvern even more. Actual (or every meta) includes an offense hero, I agree on that.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted November 05, 2019 07:19 PM |
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nordos said:
First of all, Fortress is trash. It is the single worst faction, and it has several reasons for it:
1) low mage guild
2) no really good ranged, the fliers die like literal flies (makes it hard to siege)
3) and to add to it, the heroes are bad. Most of the times you would really love to get Crag Hack or similar instead of a native Hero. That is bad design in my opinion.
So, how would it make overpowered if there is an att focused heroclass, when you actually hope for getting a decent barbarian? It would at least reduce the RNG, since not always is it possible to get a decent hero in the selection.
not sure if you're trolling me, or you really are narrow minded (I would've called you stupid but the mods might admonish me  )
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted November 06, 2019 05:39 PM |
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Well to be honest he has some points when it comes to Fortress, this faction is like bunkering all the time while you don't have real viable options/units to conquer other towns in case of a siege. Wyvern have kinda low HP, same goes for dragonflies, the ranged unit is kinda "meh" in late game. Imho this hasn't much to do with "balance". Coz winning the game isn't defending exclusively, it's the opposite. Anyway in actual meta nobody really plays any defensive characters for a good reason, I wouldn't call that "balanced" at all.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted November 06, 2019 07:10 PM |
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he doesn't have any points.
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low mage guild
Fortress is a barbarian (might-oriented) town. It doesn't need high level mage guilds. And if this reply doesn't satisfy you think about Stronghold. It's the same type of faction and they don't need high level mage guilds, either, but no one is complaining about Stronghold not having high level mage guilds. Why are you guys hypocrites? Just because you're not fans of defense doesn't mean that Fortress is weak, or that they need high level mage guilds
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no really good ranged, the fliers die like literal flies (makes it hard to siege)
I agree that Fortress archers suck, but that's because this town shines in other aspects (it's the town with the most, and best creatures' abilities, and also the best hero in the game). The wyverns are indeed squishy (this is actually the only good point he's making), but the dragonflies are the best level 3 creature. If that creature dies "like a fly" it just means you don't know how to play Fortress and you sacrifice the flies like a moron. As for sieging, I never cared about it, so...
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and to add to it, the heroes are bad
I would say LOL, but I am actually infuriated by the tardness of some people. He calls Tazar (the best hero in the game) BAD. He also calls Alkin (the 2nd best hero from Fortress) BAD. No comment, really. And these are only the heroes that I like. I have heard other people on this forum saying that Korbac, Andra, Gerwulf, and Bron (the guy that starts with 7 basilisks) are good, too. So, half of Fortress' heroes (including the absolute best hero in the game) are good, and this guy says that Fortress has bad heroes. Where is his good point, then?
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Most of the times you would really love to get Crag Hack or similar instead of a native Hero
most of the time you stick the phuck to Stronghold then, and pick the same old boring CH then, if you crave offense so badly. You don't come here and whine about a defense-oriented town that it doesn't have CH.
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That is bad design in my opinion
I'm glad that you've specified "my opinion" because otherwise I would have bashed you even more. The only bad design about Fortress are Wyvern Monarch's low HPs and Fortress' speed (they would have needed 1 more speed for all creatures except Dragonflies). Other than these flaws Fortress really is perfect in every aspect.
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this faction is like bunkering all the time
yes, it's a bunkering town, suitable for people like me and others who prefer defense over offense. Any problem with that? The solution to your problem is simple: DON'T PLAY FORTRESS!
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while you don't have real viable options/units to conquer other towns in case of a siege
pick Tazar, level him to 60+ and then conquer any town you want. You should see 100 Archangels dealing 2 damage to chaos hydras. You should really see that...
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Coz winning the game isn't defending exclusively, it's the opposite
LOOOOOOOL. Also, one more LOOOOOOL. You tell that to my friend who used to kick my ass at this game, but would have a bitter taste in his mouth whenever I'd pick Fortress + Tazar. My high school colleague used to win 6-7 times out of 10 games against me because he's been better than me at H3, but my only victories against him have come mostly when I had played Fortress + Tazar. It's true that we would only battle in month 12 after my Tazar would become at least level 60, sometimes even 70, and at that point he would be unkillable most of the times, but hey, those were dem rules that both of us have agreed upon, so my victories have been legal and well deserved.
Anyway, to answer your comment I can say that yes winning the game IS defending exclusively. Just because you don't like defending it doesn't mean that this is cheating, or other bull5hit like you're trying to make it seem.
Quote:
in actual meta nobody really plays any defensive characters for a good reason
I have no idea what "meta" is, nor do I care, so don't bother answering. As for people not playing defensive heroes the "good reason" that you're mentioning is actually different to the one you're invoking, namely because only the elite players know how to play Fortress. And when I say elite players I don't refer to myself which I am noob at this game. I just happen to like Fortress (it's my all-time favorite town actually), but when I say elite I'm referring to the real pros of the game. And when I say "real pros" I don't mean the so-called pros that reload the same map 1000s of times until they learn it A to Z, or until they get the right battlefield to suit their tactics (which most of the time consists of spamming force field)... or the so-called pros that win 9 games out of 10 because they play Necropolis and ambush you with gazillion of skeletons... no, when I say "real pros" I mean people who play PvP on random (random maps, random, random town, random hero, 200% difficulty, and win 60% of the time against anyone, in any condition). These are the pros of this game in my opinion, but you can probably count all these pros on the fingers of one hand because they're few.
But anyway, I digress. The point I was trying to make is that the reason why people don't play defensive heroes is because they don't know how to win playing defensively. Stacking offense percentages to deal more damage while having orb of inhibition / recanter's cloak is easy. But dealing little damage and being prone to magic (mass berserk, blind, etc) takes skill, and the so-called pros don't have this skill. That's why people don't play defensive heroes, not because of the (dumb) reasons that you and the other guy invoked
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted November 06, 2019 07:51 PM |
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Lvl 60 Tazar in PvP games with 12 month of playtime? Alright... we are talking about different dimensions  Coz to be honest... PvE doesn't need any real balance at all since its kinda useless to balance vs AI (AI will always fail), same goes for PvP lasting longer than 2 months. Coz in a normal match you will get crushed to death in below 6 weeks and thats the point where Fortress is kinda underpowered no matter how long you play "Tazar"... btw. Neela and even more Mephala are much more powerful when it comes to "Armorer" special the only benefit of Tazar is he gain logistics more easy.
Lets come to witches...
Chances of secondary skills (out of 112)
Combat Magic Adventure
Archery 3
Armorer 4
Artillery 1
Ballistics 8 (useless)
First Aid 8 (super useless)
Leadership 1
Luck 4 (useless)
Offense 2
Resistance 0
Tactics 1
Intelligence 7 (super useless without spec)
Mysticism 8 (super useless)
Scholar 7 (useless)
Sorcery 8 (nearly useless)
Wisdom 8
Air Magic 3
Earth Magic 3
Fire Magic 3
Water Magic 3
Diplomacy 2
Eagle Eye 10 (super useless)
Estates 1
Learning 4 (useless)
Logistics 3
Navigation 6
Necromancy 0
Pathfinding 2
Scouting 2
60 out of 112 Points nearly so 1/2 of you levelups lead to an useless skill. If you do the maths, witches end up with at least 2 useless skills in avereage with 3 and if you're unlucky with 4 useless skill
Same for the stats...
Skills 1 2–9 >10
Attack: 0 5% 20%
Defense: 1 15% 20%
Power: 2 40% 30%
Knowledge: 2 40% 30%
Witches are by far the worst heroclass in game... Maybe you try some PvP battles with HotA and HD Mod. You'll see, what "balance" is about
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted November 06, 2019 08:10 PM |
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I have wanted to try HotA, but I'm not keen on doing that anymore cause I don't have the time anymore. Besides, I'm a WoG fan (been playing it for 12-13 years), so it's hard for me to play the kids' version of Heroes after I have tried the adult version xD
Also, I don't care too much about the stats you've posted. All I know is that I like Fortress, and that it's my most successful town, and I'm happy with this knowledge so let me live in my bubble.
And yeah, Neela and Mephala are also my favorite heroes (just because I'm a defensive freak). Actually, Mephala + Rampart is the other hero that has brought me victories besides Tazar.
Last but not least, if I'll ever learn to play this game the retarded way (ie like the fake pros are playing it, with lots of reloads of the same map until they get the starting area they like, and also to chain heroes so we can finish the game in day 1 if possible... yay! we've played Heroes) I would most definitely NOT GET CRUSHED in less than 6 weeks because I'm not retarded to buy 8 heroes and make them all level 10. I prefer to have a solid level 20 hero with Town Portal and then go rape the so-called pros, instead of having 80 wyverns and 15 angels on one of the dozens "main" heroes every game, no matter which town I'm playing. The last 5-6 PvP games that I've watched on youtube between the so-called pros have all been like xerox copies: each of the 2 players has cried about restarting the game because they haven't gotten the starting area that they have wanted, also both of the players have carried only wyverns and angels like retards, and also the first to find Tome of Air / DD scroll has won the game. Woohoo! Long live the luck of the so-called pros. So much skill in scouting for DD. I wonder if these so-called pros would be able to win at least once against me without TP, DD, blind, and other game ruining mechanics (tip: they wouldn't, because they have practiced their entire life the same map over and over again, and only chase the same snow every game: tactics, earth magic, offense, and DD).
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 06, 2019 09:07 PM |
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P4R4D0X0N said:
Neela and even more Mephala are much more powerful when it comes to "Armorer" special
What? Neela is an alchemist which makes her trash by default (starts with useless scholar + very poor secondary chances, especially Archery which you desperately need for this town) and Mephala is just OK (troubled by crappy Leadership or Luck as a ranger; worse secondary chances; worse primary stat distribution).
Beastmaster and Barbarian are the best classes in the game.
nordos said:
First of all, Fortress is trash. It is the single worst faction, and it has several reasons for it:
1) low mage guild
Many peple don't even bother with Wisdom online. "Low level mage guild" as a prime reason for Fortress being bad is just plain wrong.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with either Fortress, or Tazar in HOTA. it's not Cove tier town, but it's not Inferno/Dungeon either.
hating on fortress reminds me about "stronk vs. Easy mode AI" players from 20 years ago, by the way... 
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nordos
Known Hero
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posted November 06, 2019 09:40 PM |
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So, my point about the heros still stands in your argumentation. Basically, you are saying that some heroes are, due to their speciality, the best heroes (or very strong), so how would adding another class that is att focused break fortress in any way? I simply do not see the logic.
Well, it may be true that I am hating on Fortress, and it may have to do with the playstyle I prefer. Low Mage Guild is pretty rough for me personally, while Stronghold, which is in a similar spot, can deal with it pretty well. It may have to do with the fact that most Fortress units only become really useful after you upgrade them.
It also has to do with their abilities, I suppose. If you don't know how to make it work well, you keep loosing far more stuff while creeping in comparison to other factions. The reason, basically, is, that their stats are lower than average due to their aabilities they possess.
I still think that witches are the worst class in the game currently, a mixture between the fact that Fortress has a low guild and that they often start with useless skills. So while there may be some good heroes, the fact that you have a high chance of rolling a bad hero when playing random simply kills it for me.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 06, 2019 10:01 PM |
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nordos said:
So, my point about the heros still stands in your argumentation. Basically, you are saying that some heroes are, due to their speciality, the best heroes (or very strong), so how would adding another class that is att focused break fortress in any way? I simply do not see the logic.
10 DEF 0 ATT hero is exactly the same as 0 DEF 10 ATT hero in a PvP fight. And I do mean EXACTLY the same when they face each other. They are literally 0 ATT/DEF heroes fighting each other. There is no "first strike ATT superiority" because they literally cancel each other out in the damage formula.
The role of ATT in creeping is slightly overrated.
Here's how a PvP Hota game with fortress actually looks like on the ever-popular jeebus cross.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DPDpKgvuNQ
you don't have to watch all of it but you'll notice a pattern fast, players mostly don't bother building armies and stuff. They just build a stack of wyverns and angels from banks, and that's it. This is the creature bank meta that made me quit competitive HoMM3 because every game is pretty much the same. But, that's what it is.
Under such "meta", things many inexperienced people deem as OP/underpowered is mostly meaningless.
If you have full two hours or you understand Russian, you can give it a go.There are english games out there OFC but this was the first Fortress game I noticed and I'm just lazy to look for a better one.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted November 06, 2019 10:06 PM |
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Quote:
my point about the heros still stands in your argumentation
your point is invalid, whether or not my argumentation is correct
Quote:
Basically, you are saying that some heroes are, due to their speciality, the best heroes (or very strong)
wtf??!?!? Of course they are the best (or very strong) due to their specialty, just like all other heroes from all other towns. Do you think that your Crag Hack is strong due to his helmet, or huge horns? Pfff! Are we playing mind games now?
Quote:
how would adding another class that is att focused break fortress in any way
I'm not sure it might break the town, but it sure as hell is illogical for a defense-oriented town to specialize in offense. You need to let go of your obsession with offense and try to play this game in other ways (defensively for example). When you manage to do that and pull win after win only then will you be able to understand why Fortress is not the worst town in the game.
Quote:
it may be true that I am hating on Fortress
it is true (and obvious), but it's your call. But I don't have to agree with it
Quote:
it may have to do with the playstyle I prefer
yep
Quote:
Low Mage Guild is pretty rough for me personally
if you said "personally" I can't pick on you (damn!), but to be honest, in most of my games the spells I need the most when I play Fortress are teleport, anti magic, bless, slow, cure, and haste. Therefore, level 1-3 spells, which Fortress gets easily. So, there really is no need for a level 4 or 5 mage guild for this town
Quote:
If you don't know how to make it work well, you keep loosing far more stuff while creeping in comparison to other factions
bingo! Fortress is a town for pros. Real pros I mean. Not your usual PvP pro who has played the same map 100s of times and has restarted it 1000s of times to get the juicy start that he can't win without.
Quote:
their stats are lower than average due to their aabilities they possess
exactly! Imagine the lizards with marksmen's stats... or the monarchs with dread knight's stats... who would be able to stop Fortress then? Only Necro because that snow town is immune to death stare, and also because of the billions of lic... I mean, skeletons... if it makes any difference
Quote:
I still think that witches are the worst class in the game currently, a mixture between the fact that Fortress has a low guild and that they often start with useless skills
who cares about classes? Just pick the hero based on the specialty and you're all set! I think 60-70% of the heroes in this game are pure garbage, which is why nobody (not even the pros) play them, and which is why everyone picks the same heroes all the time. So, what difference does it make then that witches are crap? Just pick Tazar / Alkin and you're good to go
Quote:
the fact that you have a high chance of rolling a bad hero when playing random simply kills it for me
do you play a lot of random so you can stress about drafting the good heroes? If you play a lot of random do you win a lot so you can stress about drafting the good heroes? If you win a lot does it really matter which heroes you draft since - in my opinion - the ones who play random and win most of the time are truly pro at this game? If you don't win a lot then probably playing random is not recommended, in which case you really don't need to stress about drafting the good heroes since you can't win anyway.
Besides, all towns have a high chance of drafting bad heroes, so I don't agree with your statement
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nordos
Known Hero
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posted November 06, 2019 11:19 PM |
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And I don't agree with the philosophy of having x good heroes and the rest are simply useless. It simply doesn't make sense to me. Wouldn't it be far more enganging if every hero has some prospect instead of the current imbalance?
And I simply replied to you because you literally said that att based heroes would brek Fortress and 'make it OP'. Now you are backpedalling, saying that it merely doesn't fit the design philosophy. I don't really understand how witches fit the design philosophy of fortress either. So, all in all, what is exactly your point regarding that? Heroes shouldn't be changed because there are still some useful ones?
I don't see any coherence. The only point I see is that you are liking fortress, while I dislike it. I listed the points I dislike about that town, you merely said that it is strong. I don't know under what circumstances, under which conditions or whatever your argumentation is true, since you barely supplied informations. I mean, sure, Gorgons are one of the best T5 units out there, if not the best, but the rest of the town simply strikes me as .... imbalanced. See, they are even more suspectible to enemy types than even Necro is, which says a lot. Basilisks, Wyvern and Gorgons loose a bit chunk of their effectiveness if you are mainly dealing with constructs and or undeads.
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Revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted November 07, 2019 05:19 AM |
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monere said:
I have wanted to try HotA, but I'm not keen on doing that anymore cause I don't have the time anymore. Besides, I'm a WoG fan (been playing it for 12-13 years), so it's hard for me to play the kids' version of Heroes after I have tried the adult version xD
Also, I don't care too much about the stats you've posted. All I know is that I like Fortress, and that it's my most successful town, and I'm happy with this knowledge so let me live in my bubble.
And yeah, Neela and Mephala are also my favorite heroes (just because I'm a defensive freak). Actually, Mephala + Rampart is the other hero that has brought me victories besides Tazar.
Last but not least, if I'll ever learn to play this game the retarded way (ie like the fake pros are playing it, with lots of reloads of the same map until they get the starting area they like, and also to chain heroes so we can finish the game in day 1 if possible... yay! we've played Heroes) I would most definitely NOT GET CRUSHED in less than 6 weeks because I'm not retarded to buy 8 heroes and make them all level 10. I prefer to have a solid level 20 hero with Town Portal and then go rape the so-called pros, instead of having 80 wyverns and 15 angels on one of the dozens "main" heroes every game, no matter which town I'm playing. The last 5-6 PvP games that I've watched on youtube between the so-called pros have all been like xerox copies: each of the 2 players has cried about restarting the game because they haven't gotten the starting area that they have wanted, also both of the players have carried only wyverns and angels like retards, and also the first to find Tome of Air / DD scroll has won the game. Woohoo! Long live the luck of the so-called pros. So much skill in scouting for DD. I wonder if these so-called pros would be able to win at least once against me without TP, DD, blind, and other game ruining mechanics (tip: they wouldn't, because they have practiced their entire life the same map over and over again, and only chase the same snow every game: tactics, earth magic, offense, and DD).
Hmm you are a noob
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