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| Thread: Forge mentality |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV |
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 13, 2017 10:15 AM |
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Thanks for sharing Verriker and my best cheers to Cepheus.
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Haregar
Famous Hero
of destruction
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posted August 13, 2017 09:09 PM |
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Galaad said:
Thanks for sharing Verriker and my best cheers to Cepheus.
Same goes from me. Thank you, Verriker, for sharing this; and my best cheers to Cepheus as well!
Btw. Galaad, I see you've just gotten promoted to the moderator's function. Congratulations and good luck! 
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted August 13, 2017 09:51 PM |
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 14, 2017 03:10 AM |
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Xfing: please trouble yourself to read the forum rules about language. These rules also apply to images and other hosted content.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Haregar
Famous Hero
of destruction
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posted August 14, 2017 08:24 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
Aye, that is great to see. Good find. Just wonder why this Cepheus has left the community. Still, we are grateful for this revelation.
I guess it's because of not having time (maybe because of duties such as family or job) or something, dunno to be honest. I still remember him as a decent poster here on Heroes Community. Years ago he was an active and friendly user.
Too bad he left the community. I had a break from Heroes Community (lol) when he left this forum, so I have no idea whether he posted something like a goodbye to all the users explaining why he is leaving the forum, or not.
Anyway, we miss you Cepheus. 
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Xfing
Adventuring Hero
I like Forge
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posted August 22, 2017 08:38 PM |
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Edited by Xfing at 20:39, 22 Aug 2017.
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In any case, it's good to have some final clarification with regards to that issue. Forge only being present if specifically included by the mapmaker is probably the optimal solution, quite a conciliatory one at the very least. And yet still, hysteria prevailed. What a shame, I still can't live it down 
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted August 26, 2017 02:38 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 02:47, 26 Aug 2017.
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Quote:
But forge and peasant? How looks fight tridents contra tanks?
Ask the vietnamese, palestinians or any occupied contry
But about the forge concept...
Once thing is reducing growth a little for having units that are a little stronger. NWO did this. Vampires for example are strong for T4 but have reduced growth, also very expensive.
With not so overpowered abilities you could retain balance.
Yet, this is not the same as "all units are as strong as angels"
20-40% extra power with lower numbers = Can do
200% extra power = hell no
Also all factions should be balanced. In the campaign you can make an enemy faction stronger by simply giving it more artifacts, more skilled heroes, etc. Hero attack and defense skill is directly summed up into creatures. If you want "strong campaign forge", just use strong campaign forge heroes.
Now that I think about it, I haven't seen anyone making Forge heroes...
(not saying there are none, there probably are, just haven't seen a showcase of them)
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted August 26, 2017 03:17 AM |
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Quote:
Heroes 4 which lost its designer because of the death threat
Well that does explain why the game's graphic design is that overall bad...
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Xfing
Adventuring Hero
I like Forge
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posted October 07, 2017 04:26 PM |
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NimoStar said:
Quote:
But forge and peasant? How looks fight tridents contra tanks?
Ask the vietnamese, palestinians or any occupied contry
But about the forge concept...
Once thing is reducing growth a little for having units that are a little stronger. NWO did this. Vampires for example are strong for T4 but have reduced growth, also very expensive.
With not so overpowered abilities you could retain balance.
Yet, this is not the same as "all units are as strong as angels"
20-40% extra power with lower numbers = Can do
200% extra power = hell no
Well, the values I proposed earlier in the thread are very much along these lines. All units only slightly stronger than the strongest unit of the same level, but with lower growth.
Quote:
Also all factions should be balanced. In the campaign you can make an enemy faction stronger by simply giving it more artifacts, more skilled heroes, etc. Hero attack and defense skill is directly summed up into creatures. If you want "strong campaign forge", just use strong campaign forge heroes.
That is another issue altogether. No one has ever bothered to make a proper Forge campaign, picking up where MM7 left off. Also, we know for a fact that most of map layouts that were to be used for the original AB campaign were not really changed in the final release. So we would probably have the same locales as we did in the released AB campaign. Other stuff is secondary - you can make heroes of any faction challenging by giving them a high level and good artifacts, balancing factions is going after the more subtle elements such as unit stats and growth actually.
Quote:
Now that I think about it, I haven't seen anyone making Forge heroes...
Yeah. I wonder if in the original draft Kastore was supposed to be a battleable hero, or sat in the background, only referenced in exposition and shown in cutscenes, but not present in-game, kinda like Lich King Gryphonheart?
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Xfing
Adventuring Hero
I like Forge
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posted December 17, 2018 02:53 PM |
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Edited by Xfing at 14:53, 17 Dec 2018.
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Sooo sorry for the necro, but I've seen quite a bit of new Forge videos very recently on Youtube (Centrum Heroes III channel - probably Polish). Althought that Forge is not official and made by the Mod Design Team, its recent demonstration on that channel makes me think maybe it's a good idea to start discussing this unusual town again?
In with the specific topic of this thread, I've noticed that most units in that Forge town were utterly unimpressive in regards to their statistics, and their growth was no different than the average town's. Again, this would go in opposition to the original designers' announced intention, whereby the Forge units would be superior to all other units, but fraught with a smaller growth per week and larger cost. Which I believe would be great for more than one reason:
- Lore/real world logic reasons - outfitting a natural unit with all that technology definitely takes more time and resources than recruting a natural unit, it stands to reason they should both be superior and less numerous.
- Satisfaction and reward from using the units - the Forge town plot-wise was supposed to be the biggest threat to the world since the Kreegans, and no amount of strategy would have been enough to beat them, hence why the Armageddon's Blade was needed. This means that in pre-placed scenarios, a stack of 100 Forge units should be demonstrably superior to a stack of any other 100 units of the same level and have an advantage in combat. This wouldn't affect the balance should someone opt to have this town available in multiplayer games (as the low creature growth would hold the town back from being OP), but it'd be quite amazing for creating pre-placed obstacles for maps, building exciting plot twists etc.
I wonder if the HotA team itself is also of a similar mindset, working on their own incarnation of the Forge.
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avatar
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 17, 2018 05:30 PM |
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It looks interesting in theory, but practically can be balanced only at XL+ maps. For S and M maps such solutions will be 'sudden death' for Forge.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 18, 2018 12:57 AM |
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I keep faith the true Forge will arise some day. It's basically the only thing missing now.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 18, 2018 03:22 AM |
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Only two things stopping me from releasing what i think would be the closest version to the original plans. Not including my own take on Forge adventure objects, of course.
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Mistrz
Hired Hero
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posted December 18, 2018 07:33 PM |
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 19, 2018 01:44 AM |
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Xfing
Adventuring Hero
I like Forge
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posted February 01, 2019 09:05 AM |
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Edited by Xfing at 09:05, 01 Feb 2019.
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fred79 said:
The info's in my thread.
Sorry for the delayed response, I'ma check it out.
While we're at it, what do you think about my suggested stats in this thread? Those went very closely according to NWC's idea of strong stats/few numbers.
Oh, and hopes for a HotA forge are out - you might be one of our last hopes actually 
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Xfing
Adventuring Hero
I like Forge
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posted August 07, 2022 11:59 PM |
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Edited by Xfing at 00:00, 08 Aug 2022.
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avatar said:
It looks interesting in theory, but practically can be balanced only at XL+ maps. For S and M maps such solutions will be 'sudden death' for Forge.
Epic necroquote again
Regarding this problem - the units high prices would make most units prohibitively expensive in early game for Forge players, meaning they won't be able to field the entire week's worth of units without a very strong economy. And that takes time to build - so other factions would have a significant numbers advantage, ideally making the armies evenly matched.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted August 08, 2022 02:56 PM |
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Instead of making then unbaladcely strong per week but also very expensive
(which would be OP in rich maps thus negating need to "build up for strong economy", either lots of chest or gold mine, creature banks, gold mounds, artacts you can sell at artifact merchant, etc.)
how about them being weaker than usual *in the regular week growth* (having less, not necessarily each creature being weaker individually) and then upgrading growth via horde buildings?
I think this adresses that, necessarily, they would need more turns to develop full strenght. So the intended result is the same, just with no exploit.
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Xfing
Adventuring Hero
I like Forge
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posted September 30, 2022 07:46 PM |
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Edited by Xfing at 20:02, 30 Sep 2022.
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NimoStar said:
Instead of making then unbaladcely strong per week but also very expensive
(which would be OP in rich maps thus negating need to "build up for strong economy", either lots of chest or gold mine, creature banks, gold mounds, artacts you can sell at artifact merchant, etc.)
Depends how you define a "rich" map. If Heroes is anything like RTS games, a good player will start applying pressure on the opponent early on. Suppose with Forge the point is to not allow the game to progress to the point where the player can afford everything (which is true for any faction in the first place). Also, if your enemy plays Forge, capping their mines is going to hurt them even more. Imagine missing just a few hundred gold for your shiny T7U unit, which I imagine would cost a good chunk more gold than the Archangels.
Quote:
how about them being weaker than usual *in the regular week growth* (having less, not necessarily each creature being weaker individually) and then upgrading growth via horde buildings?
Afraid that'd go directly against the whole fantasy of the town - it's one big power trip, it's meant to feel like you're cheating, almost. Also, three words: suspension of disbelief. If you have units with stainless steel prosthetics for limbs and modern gear, it's natural to expect them to be stronger than their unmodified counterparts, isn't it? Also, the same applies to growth - it being smaller than in other towns is a direct consequence of the advanced and resource-intensive production process. Kinda like how the Nazis produced less Tiger tanks than the Russians did, but the tanks themselves were individually vastly superior.
Also, having a gimmick with more horde buildings would directly mess with the current game's limitation of 2 per town. It's bending the rules a bit too much IMO.
Quote:
I think this adresses that, necessarily, they would need more turns to develop full strenght. So the intended result is the same, just with no exploit.
I think if you made the units expensive enough, you'd still need tons of time to develop full strength. You could make the units literally overpriced - not as in just "very expensive", but too expensive even for what they are. This sort of "premium" would definitely restrict a Forge player's ability to field overwhelming armies.
So let's assume the T7U can defeat two Archangels on its own. One Archangel is worth 5k. Logic dictates in that case the unit should be worth 10k, as it's about as good as two archangels. But then you can put some extra premium on top of it and require, say, 12k to buy one. That makes the unit not only expensive enough, but literally too expensive for what it does. I think that's a good way to restrict Forge's OP-ness while preserving the fantasy.
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