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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 14, 2017 07:25 PM |
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Baronus said:
I dont want stupid Heroes III where primitive armies destroing tanks robots and other high technology units. One is fantasion but second is idiotism. Minimum sense is needed in fantasy too.
Both Might and Magic 6 and 7 end in hero fighting with blasters (laser guns) vs same lore monsters as before. Also there is a high tech ship to be visited in the end. I think if it is done right and inspired, it looks okay.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2017 07:33 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 19:35, 14 Jul 2017.
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EnergyZ said:
It's like reading a book, you can't understand the ending if you just skipped the rest.
But this isn't about reading a book, it's about playing a game. At best you can say that the game comes with a book about the lore, but reading that book is in no way a prerequisite to playing the game. You can steamroll the campaigns without having to read one line of lore. You do however have to assimilate the entire visual aesthetics because that's what you see on the screen.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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salubri
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 14, 2017 07:47 PM |
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Baronus said:
We must stop offtopic MMVI, MMVII. We are telling about HIII. Forge fit TO THIS GAME or not. NOT TO MMVI or MMVII, another system another gameplay. Completly another all. And forge dont fit. You mustnt be a genius to see that forge city ecran completly dont fit to rest game. Graphic style is first barrier. Second is world coherence. Sci breaking rest. Third is ballance. This city must be overpowered because if will be the same power like others it will be stupid. Gnolls or pikemans destroing blasters troops.
In fact is impossible to ballanced it. I dont want stupid Heroes III where primitive armies destroing tanks robots and other high technology units. One is fantasion but second is idiotism. Minimum sense is needed in fantasy too.
Other question is forge city design. Idea was good. City design too. BUT DONT FIT! Good design to another game. And thats all.
Read all posts. Battles in heroes world have zero logic. As in one of examples that one magog could set a dendroid on fire and burnt it alive but in game i dont see one magog killing one or army of dendroids cause its not just fire its a huge fireball so dont go with logic in heroes games. Devils are immune to weapons except very powerfull ones yet i see those lame pikemen stabing them without any problem in game.
Balance isnt much of a problem. We discused it here and i tried new stats, prices, growth and skills in game and they seem to be ok so far.
The only problem was when it comes to the theme. Seriuosly why do you care? The so called medieval theme was based on lore. Tell me why do we have Cove town? Because of the lore. Oh but its medieval and it fits... Yes because again as i said THE LORE. They have cannons and even submarines but they arent advanced enough to be used in war. Only for tiny transportation. I expect maybe someone will add dark elf town with elves from Jadamane in the future.You see many towns and this games theme is based on the lore and if the lore fits then the theme can change.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2017 07:49 PM |
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forge is awesome. if someone doesn't want to play with it, then don't play with it. nobody's putting a gun to anyone's head; you aren't forced to play with forge in a map anymore than you are forced to play homm3 at all.
all the anti-forge people remind me of when george carlin explained how censors were added to the radio because some baptist minister didn't like what he was hearing on it. as the great lord carlin said: "hey minister, did anyone ever tell you there are two knobs on the radio? one changes the volume, and the other... changes the station!"
anti-forge people are just as bad as pro-ubi people, in my eyes. you guys're pissing(and pissed) in the punch bowl that everyone drinks. 
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salubri
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 14, 2017 07:53 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Baronus said:
I dont want stupid Heroes III where primitive armies destroing tanks robots and other high technology units. One is fantasion but second is idiotism. Minimum sense is needed in fantasy too.
Both Might and Magic 6 and 7 end in hero fighting with blasters (laser guns) vs same lore monsters as before. Also there is a high tech ship to be visited in the end. I think if it is done right and inspired, it looks okay.
I was always thinking that Lincoln would be a interesting water map object. It could function like cycops den or dragon utopia that gives rewards after defeating its guardians.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted July 14, 2017 08:32 PM |
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We dont tell about lore but about game. Heroes III. If one magical creature fight with other its logical in specific sense. I dont stick to small nonsenses eg. unit upgrade with more heads, but if one non magical creature pikeman win with nonmagical tank or blaster using pikes its so stupid that nonsense tollerance limit is destroyed. Techno is aggainists magic. Never can be join with sense. Of course you can programming all. Nonsenses craps idiotisms but Im telling about GOOD GAME DESIGN! Simply "game" can be a succes example Pokemon Go. Billions people runnig to capture pokemons! But I told about art design not about pop culture.
Only logical forge design is city which destroy all and only Armaggedon Blade can stop it. In this case fit but completly unballanced. And I dont see big sense to add higtech to destroy all? Better is new medieval style city.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 14, 2017 08:33 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:35, 14 Jul 2017.
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salubri said:
Oh but its medieval and it fits... Yes because again as i said THE LORE.
This is flat out wrong. It fits because it's conventional. Medieval fantasy and high-tech sci-fi are traditionally separate things. That has absolutely nothing to do with a specific story. If you're watching a western, you don't expect aliens, somebody can merge alien attack movie with cowboys (had been done) but if The Good, the Bad and the Ugly has a sequel with aliens, that will be something else. Now if you were right and the lore was central, such huge reaction from the fans wouldn't surface at all, would it? But it did, because most people didnt care about the lore about how x faction were aliens or how MM connects to the story etc, what they cared about was the existing CONVENTION.
As I said, I wouldnt mind about a mod (or some single campaign exclusive Forge implementation if it didnt mean one less town, I prefer Conflux to Forge any time, any place) but turning the game into a fantasy/sci-fi hybrid getting a reaction has nothing to do with the lore. You guys should really stop trying to make a lore based justification, it's irrelevant.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2017 09:50 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 21:53, 14 Jul 2017.
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salubri said:
The only problem was when it comes to the theme. Seriuosly why do you care?
Are you for real now? Why would one care if a game has sports cars or football players or cyberpunk tanks or mythical creatures or aliens in it? Are you seriously asking that question? I don't know about you, but as for me it's quite a big deal if I bought a game like Heroes 3 that introduced me to a strong fantasy theme and then JVC announced an expansion with a town about Jadame's football roster or Enroth's rally cars. But what does the theme matter as long as the names fit the lore, right?
salubri said:
The so called medieval theme was based on lore. Tell me why do we have Cove town? Because of the lore. Oh but its medieval and it fits... Yes because again as i said THE LORE. They have cannons and even submarines but they arent advanced enough to be used in war. Only for tiny transportation. I expect maybe someone will add dark elf town with elves from Jadamane in the future.You see many towns and this games theme is based on the lore and if the lore fits then the theme can change.
I'm almost tempted to let you have that argument and diss on how the lore is harming more than doing good or how JVC and Gregory Fulton painted themselves into a corner, I sure saw a lot of that with Ubisoft and Erwan le Breton so I'd really be interested in seeing if people criticizing things then would recognize the same issue for the old universe or just turn full hypocritical. Unfortunately, there is enough creative freedom that lore isn't an inescapable conundrum or twist of fate that decides a game's content, so that argument is invalid. Lore and theme can intertwine but they are ultimately independent of one another and at the disposal of a creative director's vision. You can have the same Heroes theme and many, many other different stories, campaigns and whatnot. Likewise, you can have the same story lines spanning different genres and themes. Forge wasn't a necessary addition to Heroes 3 because of lore, in fact lore is besides the point. It was a choice, a decision by JVC and Gregory Fulton that turned for the worse.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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salubri
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 14, 2017 10:21 PM |
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Baronus said:
We dont tell about lore but about game. Heroes III. If one magical creature fight with other its logical in specific sense. I dont stick to small nonsenses eg. unit upgrade with more heads, but if one non magical creature pikeman win with nonmagical tank or blaster using pikes its so stupid that nonsense tollerance limit is destroyed. Techno is aggainists magic. Never can be join with sense. Of course you can programming all. Nonsenses craps idiotisms but Im telling about GOOD GAME DESIGN! Simply "game" can be a succes example Pokemon Go. Billions people runnig to capture pokemons! But I told about art design not about pop culture.
Only logical forge design is city which destroy all and only Armaggedon Blade can stop it. In this case fit but completly unballanced. And I dont see big sense to add higtech to destroy all? Better is new medieval style city.
But blasters are magical and forge itself is very magic. Blasters are powered with magic. Just like Lincoln was with oscillation overthruster. Most technology of the ancients is a fusion of metal, stone, etc. and magic. Artifacts that can reshape a planet. Elemental manipulation.
You are thinking of battle in the plain field without tactics. You think goblin with blaster is insane op. Blasters are very inacurate. Tank can just be stabbed in the chest just like goblins, pyros, minotaurs, ogres, zombies. Except juggernaut but all elite units are like that. I cant imagine pikeman stabing titan. Titan is a moving mountain of stone he could squash most of the heroes 3 units. Most of forge units can be killed just by looking medusa in the eye. We should stop with pikemen  I hate Castle town. Way too booring. Its just a guy with a spear, a guy with a bow, a guy with a sword, a monk guy, a guy with wings. Very booring units. I love Tower town. Its not forge but they have golem factory  Very unique units. Thats why i also like forge cause its very unique not only unique looking but also unique balance. Just like necropolis stands out because they are the only ones who are dead. So why cant forge stand out as the only ones who are the most advanced. Cove stands out cause they are the only ones with cannons. But they wont stand out if forge has them too.
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Xfing
Adventuring Hero
I like Forge
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posted July 15, 2017 02:12 AM |
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Edited by Xfing at 02:13, 15 Jul 2017.
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salubri said:
Baronus said:
We dont tell about lore but about game. Heroes III. If one magical creature fight with other its logical in specific sense. I dont stick to small nonsenses eg. unit upgrade with more heads, but if one non magical creature pikeman win with nonmagical tank or blaster using pikes its so stupid that nonsense tollerance limit is destroyed. Techno is aggainists magic. Never can be join with sense. Of course you can programming all. Nonsenses craps idiotisms but Im telling about GOOD GAME DESIGN! Simply "game" can be a succes example Pokemon Go. Billions people runnig to capture pokemons! But I told about art design not about pop culture.
Only logical forge design is city which destroy all and only Armaggedon Blade can stop it. In this case fit but completly unballanced. And I dont see big sense to add higtech to destroy all? Better is new medieval style city.
But blasters are magical and forge itself is very magic. Blasters are powered with magic. Just like Lincoln was with oscillation overthruster. Most technology of the ancients is a fusion of metal, stone, etc. and magic. Artifacts that can reshape a planet. Elemental manipulation.
You are thinking of battle in the plain field without tactics. You think goblin with blaster is insane op. Blasters are very inacurate. Tank can just be stabbed in the chest just like goblins, pyros, minotaurs, ogres, zombies. Except juggernaut but all elite units are like that. I cant imagine pikeman stabing titan. Titan is a moving mountain of stone he could squash most of the heroes 3 units. Most of forge units can be killed just by looking medusa in the eye. We should stop with pikemen I hate Castle town. Way too booring. Its just a guy with a spear, a guy with a bow, a guy with a sword, a monk guy, a guy with wings. Very booring units. I love Tower town. Its not forge but they have golem factory Very unique units. Thats why i also like forge cause its very unique not only unique looking but also unique balance. Just like necropolis stands out because they are the only ones who are dead. So why cant forge stand out as the only ones who are the most advanced. Cove stands out cause they are the only ones with cannons. But they wont stand out if forge has them too.
While it's true and a trope that "sufficiently advanced technology is not possible to be distinguished from magic", I don't think blasters are actually shaped by magic. They are meant to be purely technological. The good thing about the M&M universe is that the technology can be developed to a stupendous level, but it can still coexist with magic, while keeping magic relevant. Kastore, Resurectra and co. never abandoned magic entirely, even though they were initiated into the Ancients' technology to some degree. They just used the technology to supplement their already great magical skills. And that's what beautiful about science fantasy - the science approach doesn't try to scientifically explain magic. It just acknowledges magic as existing and focuses on more mundane research, much akin to real life. But in case of the Ancients, true wonders are achieved when technology collaborates with magic.
On another note - since as several of you have said - you don't give a crap about the lore of the game. Why do you care about artistic coherency, then? If it's all about the gameplay for you, what changes if one faction's units look futuristic instead of medieval fantasy? It's still a strategy where you get to match wits with an opponent.
It's just like playing chess, where one game out of eight Black uses pieces from a different, more modern looking set instead of the traditional one. It's still chess for all intents and purposes. If it's all about strategy and gameplay for you, you shouldn't care in the slightest about the setting.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 15, 2017 02:20 AM |
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Edited by artu at 02:24, 15 Jul 2017.
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That's a wrong equation. Lore isnt equal to style. You can care about the ambiance and style of a game and still not care much about the lore. I like the artistic approach of H3, some prefer H2 but I think H3 was the peak. Personally, I dont care about the lore because I think they will invent a lore according to whatever direction they have in mind, the lore in a computer game doesnt determine anything, everything else determines the lore, so in practicality, it's just a filler.
Also, completely on a personal basis, I like playing skirmish maps, with balanced factions and good art, playibility matters the most of course but I like creating random maps and discover them, try them out each time I play. So consistency in artistic themes matters to me while lore doesnt.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted July 15, 2017 08:37 AM |
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Edited by Baronus at 08:41, 15 Jul 2017.
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Thousend pikemans can with with titan because its only very big man and can be wined. But I cant imagine that 1000 pikeman can win with IWW dreadnought FIRST WORLD WAR 1914-18. But we tell about cyber dreadnougt 2500 year in future!
Dont see and heard that in lore of MM techno is another face of magic. Rather magic is hidden techno. HIDDEN! In forge is not hidden and its a problem.
First thing is gameplay and ballance. ITS GAME! Without gameplay thers no game. You can play ugly looked game but you cant play wrong gamepaly. Second is design and look because its computer game. And all must fit if you want great game.
Personally dont like ,,technofantasy". Its cacophony and redundand mish mash. Medieval, steam, sci fi all in one cauldron. All books motives that creators likes are pasted. Too much. Coherence presented world is broken. I told about. It can be made but its weird. I think we can have great medieval games, steam games and sci fi games and its the best for art and design.
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salubri
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 15, 2017 11:00 AM |
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Well blasters are shaped by magic when it comes to forge. You saw the ending. They were copied by the machine using elemental manipulation, they werent constructed in a factory and they are powerred by magic batteries just like oscillation overthruster just way smaller. All of technology in forge was shaped by magic. Just like in the ending they just used copy paste in the machine. Blasters that are somewhat technological but they still have magical batteries. I dont think ancients use factories to produce them. They have the same machine or even more advanced one than forge to simply copy them by using magic.
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salubri
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 15, 2017 11:59 AM |
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Edited by salubri at 12:03, 15 Jul 2017.
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Baronus said:
Thousend pikemans can with with titan because its only very big man and can be wined. But I cant imagine that 1000 pikeman can win with IWW dreadnought FIRST WORLD WAR 1914-18. But we tell about cyber dreadnougt 2500 year in future!
Dont see and heard that in lore of MM techno is another face of magic. Rather magic is hidden techno. HIDDEN! In forge is not hidden and its a problem.
First thing is gameplay and ballance. ITS GAME! Without gameplay thers no game. You can play ugly looked game but you cant play wrong gamepaly. Second is design and look because its computer game. And all must fit if you want great game.
Personally dont like ,,technofantasy". Its cacophony and redundand mish mash. Medieval, steam, sci fi all in one cauldron. All books motives that creators likes are pasted. Too much. Coherence presented world is broken. I told about. It can be made but its weird. I think we can have great medieval games, steam games and sci fi games and its the best for art and design.
Ok tell me how can a simple party of 4 adventurers eliminate hordes of droids in MM6 and MM7? You think those pikemen dont have enchnated weapons to pierce the scales of a dragon or stone of titan? You saw that in MM7 there are many exotic ores to make weapons and armor. Whats with year 2500 dreadnough? Look at the town screen and its troops. Everything is rusted and looking very unpolished, there is pipes and waste everywhere. Forge is way too far from hi tech town. There is no nano technology. Everything is very primitive on technological level and runs with oil by making many fumes which indicates very primitive engines or by magic. The only exception is juggernaut. Even that one was made from parts of droids in lincoln and not from zero. Where do you think they got all that technology from. We dont have any art how it looks so why you are thinking of it as super advanced unit? By seeing how other units look and knowing capabilities of forge it might look very primitive on technological level. All rusty with exposed wires and a cloud of fumes from its noisy engine. There were mechanical dragons in H4 so why cant we have a juggernaut?
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Ereinion156
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 15, 2017 12:49 PM |
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Why are you even having this discussion?
Seriously, whats the point? There are some people who would like to play with forge in a mod and others who do not. So what? It's a mod! So everyone that wants to use it can do so, while everybody that does not want to use it does not have to.
Simply let those who want to use it, construct it. Those of you who do not want forge won't have any disadvantages through it.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 15, 2017 12:55 PM |
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Nobody has anything against a mod, this is more like retro discussion in the manner of "what if..." You know, alternative timeline where they havent canceled out on Forge.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Xfing
Adventuring Hero
I like Forge
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posted July 15, 2017 12:57 PM |
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artu said:
the lore in a computer game doesnt determine anything, everything else determines the lore
And that's completely wrong, since it's nothing else than lore that pushed NWC to come up with the Forge.
artu said:
As I said, I wouldnt mind about a mod (or some single campaign exclusive Forge implementation if it didnt mean one less town, I prefer Conflux to Forge any time, any place) but turning the game into a fantasy/sci-fi hybrid getting a reaction has nothing to do with the lore. You guys should really stop trying to make a lore based justification, it's irrelevant.
How is it not relevant? M&M has never been a 50/50 fantasy/sci-fi hybrid. The fantasy proportion has always been much, much higher, probably even like 95/5 in favor of fantasy. It's always outwardly been pure fantasy, having the sci-fi elements hidden from plain sight, their discovery intended as a surprising twist. And know why? Because it was explained in the backstory. Once prosperous and futuristic (yet still somewhat old fashioned and traditional) worlds and societies regressed into middle-ages barbarism due to losing support for their technology. But even when the technology was there (before the Silence), it's not like everyone looked like in say, Starcraft II or Halo. The art direction and items from the games clearly show that pre-Silence societies still used for example melee weapons like spears and daggers (in addition to energy weaponry), and were clad in chainmail.
Pre-Silence M&M universe was probably therefore a legit 50/50 fusion of sci-fi and fantasy, that is to say the magic and the mythical creatures never really took a back seat, even in times of peak civilizational advancement.
For reasons given above, Forge is perfectly legit in this setting. Due to a stroke of luck and chance, some well-informed people who have arrived to the planet Enroth realize they possess the means to restore one of the biggest catalysts of technological progress (the Heavenly Forge), thanks to a part they had brought with them on their spaceship. Which is to say - before their arrival this would have been completely impossible. But once it was done, access to modern technology was made much more widespread, which therefore completely justifies the emergence of Forge towns. It's a very simple cause and consequence chain. Technology gets rediscovered - production based on that technology starts - more previously dormant sci-fi elements in the setting start surfacing.
If you don't know or care about all of the above, sci-fi will never fit the setting in your opinion. But if you do know it, you at least have to acknowledge what you're dealing with and why it actually makes sense.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 15, 2017 01:07 PM |
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Edited by artu at 13:10, 15 Jul 2017.
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No, lore didnt push anything. Game lore is not like some book that has value in itself, inspiring a film director. They made that lore up because they wanted to have a setting with hybrid elements and when the idea backfired, they changed the lore accordingly and nobody got upset because the story got scrapped, even people who were pro-forge were not upset because of that, were they. They cared about their town, not their story.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Xfing
Adventuring Hero
I like Forge
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posted July 15, 2017 02:43 PM |
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Edited by Xfing at 14:44, 15 Jul 2017.
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artu said:
No, lore didnt push anything. Game lore is not like some book that has value in itself, inspiring a film director. They made that lore up because they wanted to have a setting with hybrid elements and when the idea backfired, they changed the lore accordingly and nobody got upset because the story got scrapped, even people who were pro-forge were not upset because of that, were they. They cared about their town, not their story.
Nothing about the lore got changed, except that the plot builds off the light ending of MM7 instead of the dark ending. Which objectively made for a worse ending, since the MM7 ending basically became a red herring with no connection or consequence for future titles (while otherwise it would have carried the plot onward), the Kreegans were played up to still be a huge threat, even requiring the Armageddon's Blade to defeat, while previously they were established to have been completely defeated with the death of Xenofex. Creating the new, rushed plot of AB required retcons and broke consistency, which had been pretty solid up to that point.
So it's not like the pro-Forge people cared just about the town, and not about the story. It's in fact the anti-Forge people who cared more about the LACK of that town, than about the story
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted July 15, 2017 02:51 PM |
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Maybe technozombie is primitive techno and pyro but not goblin with lasers (we still dont have it) , stinger or jackpot mino its tech end of XX century. I dont like scifi motives in MMVI, VII but it dont break to much. Old devasted droids can be destroyed by maces or hammers. Its not big logical absurd. Its possible to think. In fact we have rest of wasted tech not new technic. But its offtopic... We can think that primitive team found old blaster and push button - it shot! But hard to think about peasants beating cybertanks or steell dreadnought.
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