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| Thread: MMH5.5: Lore Thread |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 20, 2017 01:48 AM |
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Edited by Nargott at 01:52, 20 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
Exactly, no less than 3 faction makeovers. This is in itself already a pretty solid reason for switching to H6/7 lore.
This is your wish to switching to H6/7 lore, but no need to switching to any lore, if following to common game world's logic and evolving it.
Reshuffling doesn't break common logic, but restricting of magic pairs does.
If you can choose a more suitable fraction for Light+Dark except humans, it would be a reason for exchanging. But if only humans support this pair, then it's not correctly to change it.
And, you say that you don't change magic guilds. This is a reason to don't changing heroes magic (or change both classes and guilds).
If humans learn Dark at the guild, but 2 classes of 3 can't use this school, it means that something is wrong.
Quote:
I think you are revealing here, you didn't play the campaign?
For some unknown reason I played, but did not attach any importance to the story.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 20, 2017 01:52 AM |
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Well, however it will be, please make the mod as independent pak file so the users can choose to use it or not.
I think some of you are reading way more into this then I tried to convey. This article is mostly an explanation of the framework I have been building this mod on since before I even started posting about it on HC. It was intended to clarify some design decisions I made in the past and didn't seem always sufficiently explained in all the threads about gameplay.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 20, 2017 01:52 AM |
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fair enough mate, if you don't care that's more than valid and respect to that, although objectively speaking I still must question if it is the ideal or sensible Occam's Razor approach to world design lol
changing the actual campaigns to a different universe or hiring voice actors and stuff is not my postulation though, not at all, probably unclear but I was literally just talking about having the basic, common game design and texts shared by all maps be less married to Ashan specifically (so say the Minotaur text telling us they are beastmen created by wizards from Silver City and all that would be changed to be a more stock description of a Minotaur, or the Vessel of Shalassa would just be a plain old Summon Ship, Necropolis would be a logical Necropolis a fantasy gamer would expect focused around Dark Magic instead of basing it on Summoning/Order Magic because of the overly subversive and questionable erwin lore, that kind of thing) lol
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 20, 2017 01:59 AM |
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Quote:
For some unknown reason I played, but did not attach any importance to the story.
I also played it for some unknown reason , and it was pretty clear humans were not supposed to be dark+light, you had 'light humans' and 'dark humans' and they were killing each other.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 20, 2017 02:09 AM |
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Edited by Nargott at 02:44, 20 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
I think some of you are reading way more into this then I tried to convey. This article is merely an explanation of the framework I have been building this mod on since before I even started posting about it on HC. It was intended to clarify some design decisions I made in the past and didn't seem always sufficiently explained in all the threads about gameplay.
This is good to follow Lore rules, or something other rules, while it doesn't contradict with each other and with a common gameplay.
Humans in your concept are LIGHT + dark (dark > summoning/chaos only by guild).
Demons are DARK + CHAOS.
Necromancers are DARK + SUMMONING.
Elves are LIGHT + SUMMONING (what about guild?).
Dark elves are DARK + CHAOS (what about guild?).
Mages are LIGHT + SUMMONING.
Dwarves are LIGHT + CHAOS.
SUMMONING + CHAOS is absent. Mages are best candidates, because they have not Might class.
LIGHT + DARK is absent (only LIGHT + dark). Humans are best candidates, because the're their native magic schools (and they have not Magic class).
What is Light and Dark? There are "Might" magic, like offense and deffense are parts of Might but oppose each other.
What is Chaos + Order/Summoning? There are pure Magic, based on spellpower and knowledge.
You actively use offense + deffense combo but don't want to use light + dark as fraction/class combo. The same with spellpower + knowledge and summoning + chaos.
Quote:
and it was pretty clear humans were not supposed to be dark+light, you had 'light humans' and 'dark humans' and they were killing each other.
It was pretty clear that story was very boring, in part due to this division.
And if the story is boring, there are no matter how humans were supposed.
But if you propose Paladins as pure Light, it's logically to be without Dark. That's why I propose Paladins as Defense, but Wardens as Light.
At first post you are adding any Lore information, but other discussion may be about how use this "Lore rules" and where's better to no look at Lore, where's better to correct/adapt this rules.
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dabuthegreat
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 20, 2017 08:34 AM |
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I never really cared for lore in H5, but I'm digging it.  Great work as always!
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 20, 2017 11:31 AM |
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Quote:
SUMMONING + CHAOS is absent. Mages are best candidates, because they have not Might class.
This already how it is in H55.
Quote:
LIGHT + DARK is absent (only LIGHT + dark).
I'm not much a fan of DARK+LIGHT, it leads to very predictable spell cast patterns where players create huge statistical differences between themselves and the neutrals. So I like to keep it rare.
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strigvir
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 20, 2017 12:37 PM |
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Humans do slaughter each other, but both do for the same reason and Elrath didn't seem to give two snows about this. In the end, both "normal" and "heretic" units are the part of the same faction, the guild bias is Light + Dark, the magic class in your mod is Heretic (not Cleric) as opposed to Paladin and even might heroes are split into light and dark. Clearly Light+Dark has more importance to homm5 Haven than some Order dragon from later games.
Elves aren't that orderly either. Tieru basically invited a demon to slaughter his own kin, he is the highest Druid in sylvan ranks and this was the epitome of his wisdom.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 20, 2017 01:06 PM |
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Quote:
Clearly Light+Dark has more importance to homm5 Haven than some Order dragon from later games.
The Order dragon was already settled Lore in H5, The factions that had most changes were Sylvan, Dungeon and Stronghold.
I don't think however the difference in views on Haven has much relevance, since changing the guild schools was never on the table anyway.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 20, 2017 01:10 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 13:11, 20 Sep 2017.
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I think I misunderstood the intention of the thread, I thought it was basically setting out a new philosophy for future big updates to be based on rather than simply being an explanation of the design which already exists, apologies for that lol
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 20, 2017 01:18 PM |
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magnomagus said:
since changing the guild schools was never on the table anyway.
I.e. mages have Light + Summoning in guild?
+
Quote:
This already how it is in H55.
Seer = Light + Summoning
Wizard = Summoning + Light + Chaos (+Dark)
Elementalist = Summoning and Chaos + Dark and Light
The main schools are: Light + Summoning, not Summoning + Chaos.
Elves have Light + Chaos in the guild?
Dark elves have Summoning + Chaos in the guild?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 20, 2017 01:20 PM |
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Quote:
I think I misunderstood the intention of the thread, I thought it was basically setting out a new philosophy for future big updates to be based on rather than simply being an explanation of the design which already exists, apologies for that lol
Yes you are right, I will make some modifications to first post to make this more clear.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 20, 2017 01:29 PM |
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Quote:
I.e. mages have Light + Summoning in guild?
I was only talking about Haven in that quote, Academy guild = SUMMONING+DESTRUCTIVE.
But because perks give spells in H55 and they have the library they can go pretty much any direction.
Quote:
1) Dark Elvels = Dark + Chaos (not Summoning + Chaos)
2) Light Elves = Light + Summoning (not Light + Chaos)
3) Mages = Summoning + Chaos (not Summoning + Light)
= H55
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 20, 2017 04:56 PM |
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Edited by Skeggy at 17:34, 20 Sep 2017.
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Isn’t it better when combinations themselves define possible alignments?
-light magic + shatter dark = Elrath
-light magic + shatter destruction = Sylanna
-light magic + shatter summoning = Arkath
-dark magic + shatter destruction = Namtaru
-dark magic + shatter summoning = Urgash
-dark magic + shatter light = Malassa
-destruction magic + shatter summoning = Urgash
-destruction magic + shatter dark = Arkath
-destruction magic + shatter light = Malassa
-summoning magic + shutter light = Namtaru
-summoning magic + shutter dark = Elrath
-summoning magic + shutter destruction = Sylanna
-light magic + dark magic = Shalassa
-light magic + summoning magic = Sylanna
-light magic + destructive magic = Arkath
-dark magic + summoning magic = Namtaru
-dark magic + destructive magic = Malassa
-destruction magic + summoning magic = Ylath
This way heroes can have double combos and mages are not excluded from dragon god alignment system.
EDIT: Since this way it is possible to have many combos of the same dragon, it would be important to define that if one hero achieves multiple beneficial combinations of the same dragon entity, he will have same benefits as s/he achieved only one combination of the same dragon.
Also, purpose of this idea is not only to allow mages to have benefits from dragon god alignment system, but also to enable multiple benefits from different dragon god per individual hero.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 20, 2017 06:16 PM |
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@Skeggy:
But what exactly does this change, if a druid takes destructive+dark, it follows Malassa according to your system, but that still makes it a 'heretical' druid in context of Ashan Lore. So what difference does it make?
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 20, 2017 06:35 PM |
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Edited by Skeggy at 18:36, 20 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
@Skeggy:
But what exactly does this change, if a druid takes destructive+dark, it follows Malassa according to your system, but that still makes it a 'heretical' druid in context of Ashan Lore. So what difference does it make?
Well, perhaps I’m wrong, but I assumed (1)that you will take into consideration only combinations of magic skill and shatters, (2)that not all possible combinations of magic skills and shatters will be used for defining dragon god alignment system, since you wrote that dragon god alignment will be defined by factions, and (3)that only one combo will be used for defining one faction.
So I assumed all three things and because of that assumptions I wrote previous post.
EDIT: I don’t want to change class system, why would I want to do that?? I think it’s excellent.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 20, 2017 08:20 PM |
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Quote:
since you wrote that dragon god alignment will be defined by factions
This is a fundamental part of Ashan Lore (notice the faction symbols), not my decision, but it does not necessarily rule out class alignments. I consider Heretics Urgash-aligned even though they are Haven heroes.
The dragon god alignment is the 'dominant religion' of the race but not necessarily the only one that is practiced.
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 20, 2017 10:17 PM |
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Edited by Skeggy at 22:18, 20 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
Quote:
since you wrote that dragon god alignment will be defined by factions
This is a fundamental part of Ashan Lore (notice the faction symbols), not my decision, but it does not necessarily rule out class alignments. I consider Heretics Urgash-aligned even though they are Haven heroes.
The dragon god alignment is the 'dominant religion' of the race but not necessarily the only one that is practiced.
Standard faction symbols of Ashan represented factions that had no classes, therefore standard Ashan lore considers faction and class as the same thing. Development of class structures under one faction postulates faction as something much more complicated than class.
Beside it is excellent expansion of standard game narration, not detrimental to previous game narrations, and provides excellent base for possible future plots, that expansion can also enable Ashan Lore to follow and allow not only that one hero can have more than one dragon-god alignment, but also that magic-magic combos and anti-magic-magic combos define meta-alignments, like heroes 4 classes for one specific hero.
That way every specific hero could have its own personalized meta-class based on more than one dragon-god alignment, on top of standard class. Meta-class could have meta-class based blessings, or combination of blessings and curses.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 20, 2017 10:24 PM |
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 20, 2017 10:52 PM |
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Edited by Skeggy at 22:58, 20 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
Quote:
therefore standard Ashan lore considers faction and class as the same thing.
No, it doesn't in H7 there are 6 classes per faction.
I don't think that H7 classes are good representation of the good faction-classes ratio. It is not quite clear which hero belongs to which class, class delimiters are not easily discernable. Skillwheel does offer class information, but hey, 6 classes per faction? How many heroes per class does H7 has? 2? Doesn’t that make almost every hero per class exclusively unique?
Therefore, I don’t see H7 classes as good faction-class ratio example.
MMH 5.5 has excellent faction-class ratio. One faction, three classes, more than five heroes per class.
EDIT: Doesn’t that make almost every hero per class and per faction exclusively unique?
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