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| Thread: Native Terrain Research |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted October 02, 2017 03:18 AM |
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Native Terrain Research
So I saw a lot of research about native terrain in H3, but I coudn't find any for H4... (see here for H3 for example: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=11979)
I decided then to make my own research into how native terrain works on H4.
You can see some stuff about it on the info ingame if you have scoting. Other than this, nothing is provided.
Summary of my findings so far:
- Native terrain affects movement in the adventure map
- Native terrain affects movement in the combat map as well.
- Native terrains are fixed to the "six factions"
- Native terrains affect NO combat stats other than movement.
(So no +ATK of +DEF as in H3.)
- Native Terrains affect only creatures, NOT heroes
- Native Terrains only diminishes penalties for movement on terrains (in and out of combat), so being native to grass or other non-penalty terrain will actually be the same as nothing and give no benefit. This is true (and boring) of Life and Nature creatures.
Modding:
- There is no known way to mod Native Terrains (yet).
- BUT you can make your town recruit creatures of other alignment.
(for example, if you want to use the "Life" town slot but making a Swamp town, you can give them Chaos-aligned creatures)
I offer these screenshots of creatures with the same speed (in my mod) but different native terrain, as a way of knowing if and how it affects their movement.
Due to my bad connection some upload failed but you get the drill...
 
 
 
 
 
We should maybe try to search ways in the .exe to change terrain penalties and native terrains for factions.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted October 02, 2017 07:07 PM |
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We can ask HIII specialist how it was codded and next find similiar code in HIV exe.
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Karmakeld
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 02, 2017 07:43 PM |
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I guess you mean Movement rather than Speed. Speed is their initiative, and have no purpose in this.
While at it, it's worth mentioning that standing in a river will reduce your defense by 3, similar to standing in a moat/infront of wall. But this is mentioned in the patch notes, but that's it.
Isn't the terrain types mentioned in the Manual as in H3? Like Grass 100%, Snow 75% for non-native etc..?
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted October 03, 2017 09:01 AM |
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Yes, movement. 3.55 new strings changed "speed" to "initiative" anyways, because it was confusing. Not made better in that the "speed" spell actually increases your movement, AFAIK...
Not checked those manuals or patch notes.
Can you actually "stand on a river" in combat, or do you mean the adventure map?
There is no "75%". This is calculated in "+% move points". So swamp is 200% of move points, native creatures get %150.
It is mentioned on the Strings and visible for heroes with some level of Scouting if they left-click on the terrain.
I don't think the system is precisely the same as H3. For one, H4 creatures can walk on their own. Armies can be divided by themselves, which coudn't happen in H3 (you always needed another independent "hero" to pass the creatures - and creatures don't retain "tiring", creating the infamous "hero chain" to get creatures to the frontline in 1 turn).
So the movement system got rewritten, or a new one got written from scratch.
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Karmakeld
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 03, 2017 08:24 PM |
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Yes you can stand in a river during combat. Unlike in the adventure map, it's passable, though I'm not 100% sure if there might be some movement penalty similar to passing through quicksand. On the adventure map you can only pass river as long as it doesn't exceed 1 tile.
Well reduced to 75% percent of normal movement, it was an example, like 150% is a cost penalty. It depends on the way you calculate it. And indeed some of the roads costs less than 100% 
I don't recall much from H3 regarding terrain and movement as it's been ages since I played it, but in H4 your heroes/army's movement is affected by the creatures in your army. The slowest determins your army's total movement. Eg. Dwarves or Golems will slow you down, while others may increase it for your hero.
Well the chaining method can be exploited in H4 aswell.
Maciek discovered a bug a few years ago that would allow eg.a Bandit to reach like 200 movement points.
Are you certain no one asked/tested the effects of terrain types either on this forum or CH? I mean the game is 15 years old, chances are the results are already posted somewhere.
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Nimostar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted October 18, 2017 05:00 PM |
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I have seen most of the old threads on H4 forum and nobody talks about this.
PEople talk a lot of H3, nearly nothing of H4.
In H3 slow creatures slow your army. But once you pass the creature to a new hero, that HERO movement determines that the army can keep moving. Creatures have no movemenet points on their own.
In H4 creature stacks register how much they have moved. Thus if you pass creatures to a new hero, creature can't move any more than normal. As you may know, even transferring creature cost movement from it. Sometimes you can transfer some creatures and not others, because some are faster/have moved less, whereas in H3 you can always transfer any and all creatures, an unlimited amount of times, since movement is ONLY in hero.
And bug/exploit is bug/exploit, not feature... if you use that in tournament, it would be cheating, whereas chaining is standard practice in H3.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 09, 2022 07:13 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 19:20, 09 Jun 2022.
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Actually, you can't give a creature of another alignement to your town. That will just crash the game (most prominently after buying dwelling). All need to be the same alignement and that has to be the town alignement.
Seemingly there are unknown , unnecessary checks implemented that prevent this... (not the first time H4 has such checks, it is also why it's not possible to just change object type like in H3 unleashed map editor)
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted June 09, 2022 09:17 PM |
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Unit movement is worst thing in H4. This game is very very slow because you cant transport units from hero to hero. H3 is more dynamic. Its one of reasons why players prefer 3 part...
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 09, 2022 10:05 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 00:24, 10 Jun 2022.
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Well to me, that is logical. It's not like heroes carry all creatues on their backs...
The movement is very slow tho and you are right. Equilibris 3.60 added more movement by default, and another movement related skill
I don't know what to hex to edit to add more movement (change the translation of creature and hero "movement" skill into map movement points) in ULTIMATE, tho.
H4 makers underestimated the size of H4 maps compared to hero movement, so we have movement of heroes similar to H3 steps in much larger, less dense enviroments, which makes it look and feel that heroes can barely move each day.
A way to partially compensate this by mapmakers it to add lots of oasis, stable, rally flag and horse drinking stuff...
Another would be making more narrow paths as in H3, but the huge size of H4 trees and mountains makes that not very visually appealing (everything would be occluded by terrain features). Common buildings are often 3x3 and some even 4x4, unlike in H3 where even level 7 dwellings are just 1x2.
At least, in modded objects, we know have not-so-big terrain objects as well.
***
By the way oftopic but I cannot find H4 chronicles here. Was it deleted?
only in https://www.celestialheavens.com/forum/7?p=386169#p385888
but I kinda hate celestial havens-.- their forum order is illogical and harder to browse (h7 first and H1-4 share a single forum... come on, that doesn't make sense.)
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iliveinabox05
Honorable
Famous Hero
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posted June 10, 2022 12:00 AM |
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NimoStar said:
By the way oftopic but I cannot find H4 chronicles here. Was it deleted?
only in https://www.celestialheavens.com/forum/7?p=386169#p385888
but I kinda hate celestial havens-.- their forum order is illogical and harder to browse (h7 first and H1-4 share a single forum... come on, that doesn't make sense.)
It's right here. It's the Heroes 4 Restoration of Axeoth thread.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 10, 2022 12:24 AM |
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Thanks. I really didn't see it, don't know why. Maybe I am just tired...
So, you were just silently lurking the whole time 
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iliveinabox05
Honorable
Famous Hero
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posted June 10, 2022 02:44 AM |
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NimoStar said:
Thanks. I really didn't see it, don't know why. Maybe I am just tired...
So, you were just silently lurking the whole time
Always keeping an eye on the forums Even if I don't have time to do much else.
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted June 10, 2022 09:49 AM |
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I think that the creators of H4 finally noticed that the game was going very slowly so they practically did not make xl maps. I think there's one or two. Lots of maps have only 2 players, which simplifies the game as much as possible and so shortens it. I was playing the xl map from a random generator and it wasn't that bad. I rather got used to a different style of play. However, speed up the movementwould have come in handy.
Currently, I can only speed up the hero, so units going to the main army to be refilled would have to be transported by another hero. How much would you give for the movement? Currently it is 23.10% 20% 50%? But then, however, each hero would be faster. This will work so that each unit will get this%. For example, when it is 18 it will be 21.6 or 22 and when 30 it will be 36. So all army speed will be 22.
A hero with only dragons will have a huge range.
Best solution is to find movement alghoritm and change it to have slow battle units faster on the map.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 10, 2022 03:43 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 15:45, 10 Jun 2022.
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Well a hero with only dragons is still limited by hero movement. As this is not Heoes 3, herpes have a movement limit by themselves too.
I think +40/50% map movement to everything would be fine, but this means finding the hex that applies the conversion rate.
In any case, this is not the only factor why H4 gameplay feels more sluggish.
Daly recruiting was also a ail since you have to do this core every day if you want to be in optimal conditions. Weekly recruiting did let you not worry about this for 7 days. Then week was a big event that made you happy.
Add to that daily caravans and H4 feels like too much administration.
However, this mechanic is too ingrained in H4 code to just change. Map movement is easier.
And yes further campaigns of H4 specially expansions had smaller maps. There is also more use of teleportation. At least this is an advantage over base H3 since we have several more portals and even water ferries. I wish there was reverse water ferries too to skip land, tho. Well, I guess Whirlpools are close enough, but they can't be linked like regular portals. Perhaps I have to create water style portals in my custom objects...
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted June 10, 2022 04:50 PM |
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You buy caravans at the end of the game, because you have more important buildings earlier. And the income is only 1 thousand. daily. 7 thousand in a week, the army costs 20 thousand monthly. So buying a caravan is a big loss of money.
Speed can be modded by correcting logistic skill. Because not only normal hero movement must be modded.
The game is also slowed down by the principle of parallel damage. In H3 you can hit and the enemy unit falls without countering. This speeds up the battle. With parallel damage, fights take a long time. They are accelerated by the ability to save during the battle. There is no need to repeat all battle over and over.
All unit must have faction aligment. In castle only one. Adding the same unit eg. 1lvl squire 2 lvl squire 3 lvl squire is impossible too. Game crashing. In H3 it is possibile. Adding neutral unit to all cities too. Probably other faction unit can be added too.
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karmakeld
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted June 13, 2022 10:09 AM |
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Just adjust the map and combat speed
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted June 13, 2022 11:54 AM |
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We are taking about gameplay speed not animation speed! :0))) To fast movement is like old blackwhite comedies humor! It must be proportionally too!
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 14, 2022 03:00 AM |
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Yes, it's a game design thing not how fast the horse animates. Even then there is a limited range even in that.
TW I tried to find movement coefficient by comparing equilibris versions but in exe 3.51 is identical to 3.60
all the changes are in DLL in which the edited hex is not apparent to my untrained eyes. Even if I could read the adresses, there would be no indication about which dll hex jump edits the value of what variable...
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted June 14, 2022 04:44 PM |
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Edited by baronus at 16:57, 14 Jun 2022.
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baronus
Equi team was made changes in movement alghoritm? What they have changed?
Logistic skill is here:
xxx 589140
100 100 100 100 125 150 % Movement.
- 0 -- 25 -- 50 100 100 100 % remove ground penalty .
First is unskilled hero.
If you mod it eg.
norm 1lv 2lvl 3lvl 4lvl 5lvl
140 150 160 170 180 200 %
0 ... 20 .. 40 . 60 . 80 100 %
...
Unskilled hero sholud have 140% movement.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 14, 2022 05:18 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 22:13, 14 Jun 2022.
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Very interesting, thanks Baronus.
Tough on the other hand, that would mean that creatures with heroes will generally move more than free creatures, since this only would affec heroes AFAIK.
Not that such is necessarily bad but this is indeed another game design change
Since I cannot edit base post, I will add information:
Default native terrains:
Life -> Grass (No effect, 1 -> 1)
Nature -> Grass (No effect, 1 -> 1)
Chaos -> Swamp (-0.5 penalty, 2.0 -> 1.5)
Death -> Volcanic (-0.25 penalty, 1.25 -> 1.00)
Order -> Snow (-0.5 penalty, 1.75 -> 1.25)
Might -> Rough (-0.25 penalty, 1.25 -> 1.00)
Thus we must conclude that numerically Order is the best one (since it has the greater proportional impact), followed by Chaos, then Might and Death, and finally Life and Nature which sadly do nothing.
Currently we don't know where to change this. It may be possible to find base terrain values by numeric pattern in the exe, tho.
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