|
| Thread: Love or sexual organ? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
|
posted January 20, 2019 01:43 PM |
|
|
artu said:
You mean, you werent serious with that? Damn, things had finally made sense.
Well, how can I know about Atlantis, we hadn't yet landed at time!
We may be an advanced space-faring species with FTL, but time travel is beyond us... for now?
Don't let that dissuade you from being assimilated, trust me, it's for the best, we're going to Make Earth Great For Once, and then make it candidate for an apex place in our empire.
____________
Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 20, 2019 02:25 PM |
|
|
artu said:
Well, if we are to be technical, flat earth hypothesis would be more accurate and it is a falsifiable hypothesis, one which made great sense back in its day, which had been falsified.
And no, consensus means that experts of the topic agree that the existence of consciousness is explainable by a bio-chemical process. (And it is.) If you assume anything on top of that, you will have to be the one to bring the evidence because at this point it is a position similiar to claiming magnets pull metal because of spirits involved.
Artu, you know better than that. "Consciousness" is basically on the same level, when it comes to scientific description, than "love": it's not even well-defined. Secondly, if you abstract "consciousness" (as in "the existence of consciousness is explainable by a bio-chemical process" you are a world away from proving that HUMAN consciousness is that, exactly that and ONLY that.
So, yes, there is a CONSENSUS (an agreement) that "experts of the topic" (mainstream scientists) agree about something that is neither defined nor proven - and there isn't even a NEED for that kind of "consensus".
In any case there is nothing proven here, and I repeat, scientific history is notorious for consensusses being crap.
|
|
AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
|
|
posted January 20, 2019 02:43 PM |
|
|
AnkVaati said:
Islam and IS in particular is the logical outcome of the Abrahmic world view.
You disagree? Well... explain to me how you would morally not wanna force anyone (including beating children to not have independent thoughts... or why not women if we're being biblical folks...) to worship this tyrannical dictator of the universe so he doesn't send you to eternal suffering? Ofc that's completely logical. 
Jehova is a demonic being who wants to usurp our spirituality and our relationship with nature. He represents the urge of wanting to be in control of everything, being worshipped alone. Everyone and every state on the planet has the right to take adequate measures to protect everybody from his totalitarian ideology.
Go ahead and explain to me how the Trinity is better in that than 'pure' monotheism.
Moreover, with Islam you're overlooking an important element, the economic one, one of the many reasons for which Islam preferred to rule through minority.
____________
Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted January 20, 2019 03:15 PM |
|
|
The one monotheism advantage I can guess is that it's easier to understand and explain.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted January 20, 2019 03:44 PM |
|
|
Sorry JJ, but you talk as if there is some great mystery waiting to be solved. I mean, sure there is a lot waiting to be discovered about consciousness but not about its basic physical nature. 200 hundred years from now, science may say many different things, much more advanced things about consciousness but regarding that it is a process of THE BRAIN, it won't. We got that part covered and the odds of that changing is indeed not much more than going back to flat earth hypothesis. I wish it wasn't so, death is depressing, but it is. We match different levels of consciousness to various sizes and types of brain from various species, we map out centers for memory, language, emotion, we scan the activity of these centers under various conditions, it's all quite a materialistic field of research. And there is no non-magical alternative anyway.
So, I have stuff to do anyway, so count me out for a while. That's all from me about this. You'll laugh at my face on the other side if I'm wrong. If it turns out we are immortals, I wont be complaining no matter how hard you laugh, trust me.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
|
|
posted January 20, 2019 03:52 PM |
|
|
Elvin said:
The one monotheism advantage I can guess is that it's easier to understand and explain.
Yes. To be honest the whole Trinity concept seems likely to have been inspired by European paganism. When I read the story of God with the virgin Mary I can't help but think of the story of Zeus with Leda, gods impregnating women. Kind of a Roman alteration of the whole concept of Christian monotheism.
____________
Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted January 20, 2019 04:07 PM |
|
|
The Pagan heritage is obviously more on the surface and blatant in Christianity but rest of the Abrahamic narrative is not that much different at its core. Basically, if you have a father figure of a God that gets angry, wrathful, upset, who rewards, punishes, sends messengers, takes down cities, tells stories, outlaws food etc, you might as well have a God walking around with his dick in his hand impregnating women. It's all the same line of anthropomorphic imagery.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 20, 2019 04:56 PM |
|
|
artu said:
Sorry JJ, but you talk as if there is some great mystery waiting to be solved. I mean, sure there is a lot waiting to be discovered about consciousness but not about its basic physical nature. 200 hundred years from now, science may say many different things, much more advanced things about consciousness but regarding that it is a process of THE BRAIN, it won't. We got that part covered and the odds of that changing is indeed not much more than going back to flat earth hypothesis. I wish it wasn't so, death is depressing, but it is. We match different levels of consciousness to various sizes and types of brain from various species, we map out centers for memory, language, emotion, we scan the activity of these centers under various conditions, it's all quite a materialistic field of research. And there is no non-magical alternative anyway.
So, I have stuff to do anyway, so count me out for a while. That's all from me about this. You'll laugh at my face on the other side if I'm wrong. If it turns out we are immortals, I wont be complaining no matter how hard you laugh, trust me.
I give that sorry back. Immortality has nothing to do with it (where did you get that from?) The question is whether there are quantum processes going on in the brain or not, and there is no proven answer to this question at this point. You might want to research this point a little bit more if you find the time.
However, I'd like to add that I do not care in the slightest for your very dishonest efforts to compare this with absurdities like flat earth it-wasn't-really-a-hypothesis-either nonsense. You shouldn't really resort to this silly stuff, I think that's way below you.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted January 20, 2019 05:30 PM |
|
|
I dont think I understand what you mean by that, especially the dishonesty part. I was talking about how abstract definitions such as love, eros, compassion are approximations of what goes on in our brain. (Which, btw, you quote-commented “exactly”). Then, somebody said “assuming they can be reduced to our brain’s electrochemisty” adding up some half-baked quantum mysticism along the way. To me, it’s quite clear where he’s throwing the ball, he implies that our emotions have something to do with something that is beyond what goes on in our brain.
Now, quantum level processes are sub-atomic level processes, so, naturally anything that is happening in the universe is also happening on a quantum level. When you boil water and cook pasta, something is happening on a quantum level, too. So yes, of course brain’s biochemistry is also a quantum process but studying what happens on the quantum scope will not change the fact that it is still happening in the brain. It can lead us to understand things better, but obviously it’s not a metaphysical field.
Do you understand something else when someone objects “emotions reduced to our brain’s electrochemistry.”
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
AnkVaati
Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
|
|
posted January 20, 2019 06:41 PM |
|
|
AlHazin said:
Elvin said:
The one monotheism advantage I can guess is that it's easier to understand and explain.
Yes. To be honest the whole Trinity concept seems likely to have been inspired by European paganism. When I read the story of God with the virgin Mary I can't help but think of the story of Zeus with Leda, gods impregnating women. Kind of a Roman alteration of the whole concept of Christian monotheism.
Exactly. Christianity didn't destroy everything but maintained some of our indigenous spirituality and traditions, here and there. Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity are a bit better less terrible in this regard (as are Anglicanism and High-Church Lutheranism, I suppose.....). We can look at John Calvin and other fundie Protestant sects and see that happens when you use the bible as a source of legislation. Something quite similar to modern KSA or AQ/IS-land.
Islam is the fulfilment and logical outcome of the other religions, because it presents a clear juridical system to implement the totalitarian ideology of the Abrahamic God(-like entity).
artu said:
The Pagan heritage is obviously more on the surface and blatant in Christianity but rest of the Abrahamic narrative is not that much different at its core. Basically, if you have a father figure of a God that gets angry, wrathful, upset, who rewards, punishes, sends messengers, takes down cities, tells stories, outlaws food etc, you might as well have a God walking around with his dick in his hand impregnating women. It's all the same line of anthropomorphic imagery.
Hear, hear!
____________
Ank's Old School (kinda) H8 proposal <- best thing evvah, trust me
|
|
AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
|
|
posted January 20, 2019 07:05 PM |
|
Edited by AlHazin at 19:16, 20 Jan 2019.
|
More or less because religion is a word with many possible meanings.
Religions are also difficult to compare. While the Church has indeed after some centuries taken a path you might compare to Totalitarianism, it is a very far-fetched rapprochement you do with Islam, simply because until the twentieth century, it has almost never been the case.
____________
Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 20, 2019 07:38 PM |
|
|
Artu, you said artu said:
Anyway, the consensus on consciousness being a bio-chemical process is really solid and such bio-chemistry doesnt involve sub-atomic level research, so quantum physics is really not relevant.
I took offense on that, because it's, if not wrong, then at least rash to say that on the available information. Even though you denied it, but that opinion makes consciousness a pretty determined thing, if you think about it, and, again, it's rash to say that at this time.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted January 20, 2019 08:24 PM |
|
|
Yes, I said that and it's true. Consciousness being a biochemical process doesn't require quantum level research, it's not a conclusion quantum level research may falsify either.
Determinism is a whole other discussion, one without a straight answer yet. I mean, they now know a lot of the things we thought was free will, is actually not but is free will completely non-existent, that's a much bigger question and a scary one to be fair. My guess is, there is a degree of free will. Even if there isn't, the illusion of it is so strongly convincing, it wont make a difference in our everyday life. But of course, it will change the way we define ourselves ontologically.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Minion
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted January 20, 2019 10:23 PM |
|
|
Yeah but artu you did make it sound a bit like "consciousness is solved, everyone disagreeing is a practicioner of some mystisicm". The nature of consciousness is a deep and wanderfull question. There are tons of stuff we do not understand about consciousness. Yes it is a biochemical process, to that all experiments point to. But is IT a property on it's own which is either shunned of preferred by EVOLUTION depending on the environment? Or is it a side-effect, an emergent property of complex enough neural networks?
We still have no idea what is it that TRULY is or makes consciousness. Like an ant is a pretty useless being on it's own, but a colony can build bridges, dams, hives etc. There is intelligene in a colony that is not among a handful of ants. Which is interesting, and fascinating.
So to summarize, yes there is a consensus on that consciousness is a biochemical process, sure. But there is NO consensus on what consciousness is (scientifically) in the first place. Or how to measure it. So hence, I am with JJ on this one 
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 20, 2019 10:25 PM |
|
|
Quantum biology is an emerging new science, if you didn't know...
What IS proven is that the world isn't determined on quantum level. The quantum eraser experiment shows - basically spoken - that the world isn't existing when no one looks, non-existence being the most undetermined state you can imagine.
|
|
Minion
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted January 20, 2019 10:34 PM |
|
|
The quantum eraser experiment is something that really,truly, blew my mind  Insane 
____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
|
|
Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 21, 2019 04:02 AM |
|
|
JollyJoker said:
Quantum biology is an emerging new science, if you didn't know...
What IS proven is that the world isn't determined on quantum level. The quantum eraser experiment shows - basically spoken - that the world isn't existing when no one looks, non-existence being the most undetermined state you can imagine.
That is not what quantum eraser experiment is telling. Your "interpretation" is extremely far-fetched and borderline disinformation.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 21, 2019 08:37 AM |
|
|
Well, Skeggy,not only is this the Kopenhagen interpretation (you could mention an "expert consensus" here), you might want to read Thomas Campbell's model of reality, based on this and delayed eraser experiment (and quantum entanglement).
This model says that our "reality" is only virtual. There is a meta-reality behind it where all the information is actually stored. Very simplified, it works like the reality in a 3d computer game: only where the state of things will be observed it is determined (that is, the information is passed). If unobserved, everything is in in undecided mode.
Just saying. 
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted January 21, 2019 08:57 AM |
|
|
This reminds me of the Amber series where the 'real' world casts infinite variations across the universe
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 21, 2019 09:19 AM |
|
|
| |
|
|
