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| Thread: Poorly designed heroes i Heroes 3? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted April 15, 2019 12:23 PM |
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Poorly designed heroes in Heroes 3?
Hi all, this is probably gonna sound like a complain topic, but it's really not, it's more like a wondering and what if topic.
In Heroes 3 I find that there are many heroes that start with useless or near useless skills or specialties.
I can give you a lot of examples:
* The 4 heroes starting with Ballistics, maybe it's just me, but I never liked Ballistics skill and I find it pretty much completely useless.
* Heroes specialising in Cure, what's the point really?
* Wystan and Calh starting with Archery when Fortress and Inferno have only one low level shooter.
* Melodia having Luck AND Fortune specialty.
* Inteus specialising in Bloodlust when Conflux has 3 units immune to Fire Magic and two of the rest are ranged. (Leaving Sprites and Magma Elementals the only ones that can really use it.)
* Luna specialising in Fire Wall, a spell the AI cannot cast.
* Ciele specialising in Magic Arrow, yeah yeah probably good for the first week or two, but as soon as she learns Ice Bolt or Lightning Bolt, Magic Arrow seems pretty pointless to me.
* All heroes starting with and specialising in Eagle Eye, First Aid and Mysticism, mainly because the skills suck.
* All heroes starting with Learning, again because the skill suck.
* All heroes starting with Pathfinding, mainly because there are so many things that makes the skill useless like Angel Wings, Wayfarer's Boots in HotA, different spells, creatures on native terrain and nomads on sand terrain.
* There are also other spell specialists were certain creatures are immune to their effects, like Gold Dragons, Black Dragons and Magic Elementals.
* Mirlanda specialising in Weakness when Dragon Flies also cause Weakness.
* Vokial having Artillery, but no ballista and he cannot buy one at Necropolis.
* Torosar having ballista special, but not Artillery.
There are probably more, but I think you get the point.
Overall I am pretty dissatisfied with all the above heroes and I am thinking about completely redesigning them.
On the other end of the spectrum there are heroes that specialise in Logistics, Offense, Armorer and Intelligence + Sir Mullich and Galthran that overpowers everything. It's just poorly balanced really.
What do you think?
Edit: I tried correcting the title from i to in, but it did'nt work, maybe our good moderator Maurice can correct it?
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AlfWithCake
Known Hero
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posted April 16, 2019 01:09 AM |
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It indeed looks like developers had to make 16 heroes for each town and just thought "who cares lol let's make half of heroes have eagle eye and other half will be first aid just to show how little we care".
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Pollo2002
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2019 01:21 AM |
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I think heroes have tons of space to improve, but personally unless you can provide the tools to create a sufficiently big community to find people to play online with, the modified version, then its pretty pointless, that is imo why hota is so successful
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted April 16, 2019 01:27 AM |
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OP is absolutely correct. Also, I cannot waste this opportunity to talk about the Wizard class.
They're supposed to be the polar opposite of barbarians — the epitome of arcane lore (remember Heroes Chronicles: Masters of the Elements; "Tarnum becomes that which he hates most, a Wizard"). However, for some bizarre reason their scaling after level 10 is this: 30/20/20/30 (instead of the traditional 20/20/30/30 for magic heroes). Why? Maybe only JVC knows, but I'd place my money on error; there's no reasonable justification for it, they're not battle mages or hybrid class. I firmly believe this should be corrected.
Think about it this way, Wizards, throughout the media (literature mainly) have always been depicted as wise men (and sometimes women), whose time is entirely dedicated to the pursuit of arcane lore, they study as magic as a scientist would physics, for examle. What on earth would operate this change of heart when they reach a certain age (a metaphor for reaching level 10)? It makes 0 sense — all of a sudden they are more interested in leading armies offensively than improving their craft? This 30/20/20/30 may suit a battle mage, or even a navigator, but certainly not a staff wielding, ponty hat, old wise man.
Please keep in mind that I am not talking about balance, neither am I trying to change the game only because I'd prefer it this way. In fact, I strongly feel they should be this way, 'cause it is the correct way — wouldn't you want it changed, if, for example, barbarians (old Crag Hack) would scale like this, 20/30/30/20, after level 10? Absurd, isn't it? Right, that's how I feel about my colleagues.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 16, 2019 01:35 AM |
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Do you do something else too in your spare time besides hating on the best TBS game ever created, or is this taking up all of your time?
Also - in case you fail to imagine yourself in 1998 (when HoMM 3 has come out), which you do - let me clue you in: this game has had A LOT to offer back then, and even today, after 20+ years of existence, the game still surprises pros every now and then, which means that it still has "secrets", which further means that it's a god damn good game for a game that's come out in 1998.
And yet, some people just can't stop hating on masterpieces. Your life must really be miserable that you're picking on this amazing game. Pity, really...
AlfWithCake said:
It indeed looks like developers had to make 16 heroes for each town and just thought "who cares lol let's make half of heroes have eagle eye and other half will be first aid just to show how little we care".
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 16, 2019 01:43 AM |
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AlfWithCake said:
It indeed looks like developers had to make 16 heroes for each town and just thought "who cares lol let's make half of heroes have eagle eye and other half will be first aid just to show how little we care".
My assumption is that they didn't even think one second the game will a) have no serious sequel, b) thus will last so long, get so many variants, mods, maps until every weakness pops like an elephant
In Heroes 2, heroes have no specialty. H3 is the first to test this feature, and it was highly probable that they planned to give a more advanced version in H4.
Also, when people played MP while waiting for H4, they played CD maps or quick maps designed by hand in a couple of hours. 2 towns, resources and mobs between, maximum level about 10. In that configuration, eagle eye wasn't so catastrophic, if you didn't get slow in your town, you could at least steal it from opponent. Scouting was very valuable because reconnaissance actually was the most important thing, ballistic too because there were no pussy rules that claimed it's coward to hide in your town.
I don't think H3 is poorly designed, because you have to look at the context. It is an much waited improved version of H2 - which was genius - and was destined to get more things later.
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted April 16, 2019 01:46 AM |
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monere said:
Do you do something else too in your spare time besides hating on the best TBS game ever created, or is this taking up all of your time?
Also - in case you fail to imagine yourself in 1998 (when HoMM 3 has come out), which you do - let me clue you in: this game has had A LOT to offer back then, and even today, after 20+ years of existence, the game still surprises pros every now and then, which means that it still has "secrets", which further means that it's a god damn good game for a game that's come out in 1998.
And yet, some people just can't stop hating on masterpieces. Your life must really be miserable that you're picking on this amazing game. Pity, really...
AlfWithCake said:
It indeed looks like developers had to make 16 heroes for each town and just thought "who cares lol let's make half of heroes have eagle eye and other half will be first aid just to show how little we care".
Unless I am gravely mistaken, I've seen no heroes III bashing and/or hating in this particular topic. In fact, almost all of the suggestions here seem reasonable and even those with which I disagree should be, at least, considered.
I disagree, however, with your idea that Heroes III is perfect. Indeed Heroes III is a masterpiece (as you nicely put, we're still playing it after 20 years...), but that does not mean we shouldn't strive for improvement, after all, the masterly crafted HotA (which, IMHO, is the best expansion Heroes III ever had and the best 'unnoficial mod' to ever see the light of Creation) would not exist at all if people weren't willing to polish this masterpiece more and more.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted April 16, 2019 08:08 AM |
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monere said:
Do you do something else too in your spare time besides hating on the best TBS game ever created, or is this taking up all of your time?
Also - in case you fail to imagine yourself in 1998 (when HoMM 3 has come out), which you do - let me clue you in: this game has had A LOT to offer back then, and even today, after 20+ years of existence, the game still surprises pros every now and then, which means that it still has "secrets", which further means that it's a god damn good game for a game that's come out in 1998.
And yet, some people just can't stop hating on masterpieces. Your life must really be miserable that you're picking on this amazing game. Pity, really...
It seems like you sadly missunderstood my post. Yes I do currently have a lot of free time and a lot of it is spend with Heroes, playing, map making, changing and testing the game and in general just wondering how to improve it constantly. I don't hate the game, actually it's my favorite game of all time, which is why I still play it after more than 20 years.
But let's be honest there are some things that are not perfect and it's those things I'm trying to improve. I know some people have a hard time handling someone saying something negative, but without adressing the elephant in the room, how can you ever make things better?
I still don't understand why HotA haven't done something about the worst skills, that would help a lot of heroes for a start. Eagle Eye is annoying in itself, but that we also have 3 useless artifacts, that only 1 hero (Ash) actually can use is just annoying. Just get rid of the 3 artifacts, make Eagle Eye work 100% of the time (like Scholar) and give the poor Eagle Eye specialists some better specials.
So again not hating, just trying to improve. 
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 16, 2019 08:48 AM |
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Gandalf196 said:
Unless I am gravely mistaken, I've seen no heroes III bashing and/or hating in this particular topic. In fact, almost all of the suggestions here seem reasonable and even those with which I disagree should be, at least, considered.
I disagree, however, with your idea that Heroes III is perfect. Indeed Heroes III is a masterpiece (as you nicely put, we're still playing it after 20 years...), but that does not mean we shouldn't strive for improvement, after all, the masterly crafted HotA (which, IMHO, is the best expansion Heroes III ever had and the best 'unnoficial mod' to ever see the light of Creation) would not exist at all if people weren't willing to polish this masterpiece more and more.
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1) Yes, you are gravely mistaken, cause he DID bash the game (not this topic as you're trying to put words in my mouth)
2) where on earth do you see any suggestion in this phrase??
It indeed looks like developers had to make 16 heroes for each town and just thought "who cares lol let's make half of heroes have eagle eye and other half will be first aid just to show how little we care"
3) where on Earth have I said that the game is perfect? (again you're manipulating the conversation). I have said that the game is "the best TBS game ever", and as I recall "best" and "perfect" are NOT synonyms
4) where on Earth have I said that we shouldn't strive for improvement??? If you don't have anything to say simply don't say it! But don't play mind games with me cause I'm pretty good at it, too, and I can spot bs from a mile away
@Phoenix4ever .... I wasn't speaking to you
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted April 16, 2019 09:04 AM |
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monere said:
@Phoenix4ever .... I wasn't speaking to you
LOL guess I was the one to missunderstand then.
Were you talking to Gandalf about the Wizard class then?, that did'nt really come of as bashing to me. He have talked about it before and in a way he is perhaps right, it's one thing I would'nt change though.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 16, 2019 09:59 AM |
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I'm pretty sure that the game wasn't exactly prepared with competitive gaming in mind. The drive to make everything "perfectly balanced" was zero.
Which is part of the reason why the game was such a success, I guess. They tried to make HoMM6 "balanced" and in the end everything was just bland.
I think that they went overboard with the number of heroes, but like Sal said, it's been the first attempt of introducing hero specialties. They could easily cut the number in half and it would be still too much, especially since some heroes are essentially clones (i.e. Thunar and Erdamon from Conflux - same specials, same skills - wtf?). Skills like Eagle Eye, Learning, First Aid, etc. were a flop and they kinda missed the opportunity to fix it in the expansions, but then again the game wasn't made for comp. And you could make comp maps and ban useless skills on your own, so..
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 16, 2019 04:21 PM |
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you're all missing the point, which is.... at the time of its appearance (end-90s) the game has been a smashing success, which can theoretically be translated into "perfect".
The game had so much content that all of these minor details that you're so vocal about nowadays no one even imagined they existed. Of course that, as time went on, and players have played the heck out of it, and have learned all of its intimate mechanics the game has started to show its flaws, but back then you wouldn't be able to find a single flaw to it, therefore you could say it's been perfect.
Tell me a single game - regardless of genre - that is still played today by so many people. Not even Diablo 2 (which has been the craze for a decade) has had the same replayability as HoMM 3. Ok, maybe Starcraft is still played today more than HoMM (I don't know, I'm just making a guess), but Starcraft is one for the collection, as well, so...
Anyway, I remember when I have first played HoMM 3 for the first time (in the summer of 99)... it has taken me 5 or 6 months to learn how to play Rampart (the faction that has introduced me to the wonderful world of HoMM mythical creatures). Now granted, I have personally had no idea what HoMM was (I've never even heard of Heroes 1 or 2 prior to playing Heroes 3, nor have I had any friend or know someone who even has remotely mentioned the HoMM franchise). So, I was completely new to the franchise, and I started right with H3, which was the most complex game at that time. And for someone who would play Bomberman, Worms, FIFA, and Mortal Kombat all day long to dive right into a TBS game with H3's complexity.... yeah, for me that a hell LOT of content to digest and get used to, therefore I wouldn't even dream of the "flaws" that you're all so vocal about today.
Like I said, it's taken me 6 months to learn (NOT to master, but to learn to play) Rampart decently, and only after that I have started tried other factions.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted April 16, 2019 06:41 PM |
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I subscribe Phoenix thoughts and I want to reinstate one proposal I did one dozen times, please make Ingham and Theodorus Archery specialists. They make no sense as mid level creature specialists and don't start with proper skills but it would be funny to have skill specialists that don't became OP in two days but are amazing after a few months.
And please, can someone replace Loynis Learning with anything useful in a main hero?
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AlfWithCake
Known Hero
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posted April 16, 2019 09:19 PM |
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Geez, I didn't hate on HoMM, I was just joking and making fun of the fact that there're so many eagle eye specialists. But to me, heroes (not the game) are flawed and not tested enough, which they are. I'm not just going to give them a pass just because it was 1998, this won't make the game better and it's not a good excuse.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 16, 2019 09:39 PM |
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it's not an excuse. It's just how you judge things correctly. Pick any game that has come out in the last 10-12 months and which looks perfect at this moment. Now, can you see its flaws how they are perceived in 2039??
Of course you can't, because..... 1) RIGHT NOW it seems perfect, therefore is perfect, and 2) you don't know what flaws this game might have in 2039 because we can't predict what people will deem good or bad in 2039.
See my point now?
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Pollo2002
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2019 09:50 PM |
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Doomforge said:
Which is part of the reason why the game was such a success, I guess. They tried to make HoMM6 "balanced" and in the end everything was just bland.
A lot of games were made with competition in mind and were way way more successful than heroes 3 ever is gonna dream, and many just slightly more successful.
So I super disagree there.
Heroes 6 fails completly as a competitive game so if they tried to make it "balanced" for a competitive crowd, I've never seen such fail in my life in the world of gaming.
If you know ubisoft, its a publisher that always push the developers to make games ASAP for a quick sell and if it sells well quickly release the following one. Ubisoft policy is to keep releasing "new stuff", never to make something great.
I wish there was a big investment to make heroes 3 a "competitive" game and well balanced, there isn't. And implying heroes 6 which fails in all angles is, is extremely deceptive.
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Pollo2002
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2019 09:54 PM |
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monere said:
it's not an excuse. It's just how you judge things correctly. Pick any game that has come out in the last 10-12 months and which looks perfect at this moment. Now, can you see its flaws how they are perceived in 2039??
Of course you can't, because..... 1) RIGHT NOW it seems perfect, therefore is perfect, and 2) you don't know what flaws this game might have in 2039 because we can't predict what people will deem good or bad in 2039.
See my point now?
I`ve never seen a perfect game or one that looks so, all games are flawed. Some are constantly improved and thus great games (not perfect) others are abandoned early in the process.
You may hear professional designers say "if you release your game when you feel it's perfect, you will never release it"
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 16, 2019 10:03 PM |
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Pollo2002 said:
I`ve never seen a perfect game or one that looks so...
Exactly my point, and what I was trying to explain to Gandalf. Heroes 3 is the best TBS game that I've played, and "best" is not the same as "perfect". That was my initial point
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AlfWithCake
Known Hero
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posted April 16, 2019 10:07 PM |
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And if you look for a definition of "excuse", you will understand that what you describe is excusing homm from these flaws because of the release date. And again, half of points made by Phoenix here describes heroes that are fault by design and do not require future insight to understand that, and you can argue to what extent this makes heroes flawed in general, you can't argue about Vokial having skill he can't use.
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted April 16, 2019 10:07 PM |
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It was already mentioned by someone else, but Homm3 wasn't really build around the competetive scene, and to be honest it was a quite big step by them to make every town have 16 heroes. However, I think there are some things one should consider when talked about these heroes.
At first I would like to point out the part of heroes having somewhat sub-optimal secondary skills: the problem imo there is not the heroes, but the skills themselfs. For example, Learning should be really good skill to have as a starting skill - you would always get the most out of it, and would never have to face the issue that you're given the option to gain the skill at the later phase of the game.
However, we all do know Learning sux, so therefore all heroes having at right from the start lose a lot of their value. But as said, if the numbers would be right with Learning, I can see the world where Learning heroes would be considered really good in some templates.
Also, since each town has so many heroes, it only makes sense that some of them have very different skill sets than others, even if it would cost them to have somewhat worse skills than other heroes.
Then there's the aspect of the lore as well. Sure Inferno's Calh would be stronger if he had Offence instead of Archery, but since he has a speciality for a shooter-type creature, it makes sense to me that he has an Archery skill.
Now, when that's out of the way, I would like to share what I think about from heroes you consider badly desinged. I won't be listing the ones that have bad secondary skills - fixing the skills fixes the heroes as well.
* Heroes specialising in Cure, what's the point really?
Yeah, makes no sense. You can't overheal you creatues, and the bonus is bigger for lower level creatures, which don't have much hit points. I just actully now realised how ridicilous this is.
* Wystan and Calh starting with Archery when Fortress and Inferno have only one low level shooter.
I don't personally have any issues with these heroes. They're not really underpowered or overpowered, so they won't fit to this list very well. Their power does not lie in their starting skills, but instead of their creatures - both have 3 stacks of shooters. Calh is actually one of my favorite heroes in Hota, since you can upgrade Gogs in the first turn, and have AoE damage shooters right from the start. Give it a try sometime.
* Melodia having Luck AND Fortune specialty.
Yeah, this is just lame.
* Inteus specialising in Bloodlust when Conflux has 3 units immune to Fire Magic and two of the rest are ranged. (Leaving Sprites and Magma Elementals the only ones that can really use it.)
Yeah, this is an issue. Overall Conflux castle was rushed, and we can really see that in the conflux hero line up.
* Luna specialising in Fire Wall, a spell the AI cannot cast.
Well, in practice, it would not be "fair" even if AI would be able to cast the Fire wall. I just don't see how AI would be able to use it effectively, when we think how AI generally fights. In the end, I see this as a very very minor thing. Games are made to please us, and not the computer.
* Ciele specialising in Magic Arrow, yeah yeah probably good for the first week or two, but as soon as she learns Ice Bolt or Lightning Bolt, Magic Arrow seems pretty pointless to me.
I don't really see the issue here. Ciele's speciality really doesn't scale up to the late game. So what? We have 150+ heroes in this game, I don't really see why there can't be heroes mainly meant for the early game. Also, if we would put heroes to fight against each other solely with their starting armies, I think Ciele would do great in those kind of battles.
* There are also other spell specialists were certain creatures are immune to their effects, like Gold Dragons, Black Dragons and Magic Elementals.
Not sure if I understand this correctly or not. In case of you meant buff spells, I would like to point out that magic immunity is generally a high level ability. However, in this case those buff spells cast by a specialist would not hit anyway - for example Brissa's Haste only gives a bonus for level 1-6 cretures. I think this same rule goes for other spells as well, thus meaning that Cure cast by Uland would not give any bonus healing for Gold Dragons, even if the spell was able to target them. So the immunity is not really an issue there.
* Mirlanda specialising in Weakness when Dragon Flies also cause Weakness.
Weakness cast by Mirlanda is stronger and it can hit all enemies at once with expert water magic. I would say that's different enough.
* Vokial having Artillery, but no ballista and he cannot buy one at Necropolis.
This has always bothered me.
* Torosar having ballista special, but not Artillery.
Yeah, I think those two things should go hand to hand.
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