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| Thread: HOMM as competitive e-sport? | |
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ninjata12
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 26, 2019 11:39 AM |
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HOMM as a competitive e-sport?
I was doing some research about the future of e-sport and competitive gaming. It's getting bigger and bigger and it looks like the big gaming companies will focus more and more money and effort towards this market. Now, HOMM is a well recognized brand all over the world, including Asia, which turns out as the continent, where most of the e-sport players come from.
How can Heroes of might and magic become a competitive e-sport? Certainly not with being a slow paced game as it is. You may already know that DOTA2 and League of Legends are probably the 2 most popular e-sport games now. Both came to existence drawing ideas from World of Warcraft (WoW). DOTA was originally a mod of WoW. WoW itself is not popular at all as a competitive e-sport.
Where am I going with all this? Watching players take slow turns on the adventure map is not going to make HOMM a competitive e-sport with a lot of viewers. BUT! Just as DOTA2 took the part of WoW which was most suitable for e-sports and made it a separate game (with $34,292,599 prize pool championship this year), Ubisoft (or why not us?) can make the battles in HOMM a competitive sport! Chess for example is too boring to watch online and becomes predictable, because of the predetermined placement of the figures. But the battles in Heroes of might and magic can be made fast paced and much more interesting. Yes, I am talking about the Duel mode! The gameplay can be made a bit deeper, like having a budget with which you can buy troops, choosing some abilities of the heroes before the fight and of course - putting a timer so that the games goes faster. I love the adventure maps in Heroes, but if we can at least save the future of the series and bring a new fanbase onboard by developing a e-sport specific Heroes battles, I think it's worth going in this direction. What do you guys think?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 26, 2019 12:53 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 13:02, 26 Aug 2019.
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Here is one idea  Classic duel mode has preset skills/armies/artifacts so it lacks replayability and depth. In H6 you could at least build your hero from scratch but the skill system did not allow for much diversity. So either we'd need a far more advanced duel mode with more options and constant balancing/updates or a duel/arena map where you have everything you need to develop in a single day.
In the past there have been youtubers who were kind enough to stream or upload the battles. The tuninator uploaded duel map H5 replays, Simpelicity for H6 and NooBrainer for H5 and H6.
And then there was aza404 that uploaded Duel of Champions replays. Although not technically heroes, it did a lot of things right and was close to the spirit of the series. Honestly, heroes could borrow a few ideas from it.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted August 26, 2019 01:18 PM |
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As it currently stands, HOMM will not ever become an esport. Why? Because card games supplanted that and the cost of developing and animating a full game is much too big. If you look at "failed" card games like Hand of the Gods, they already incorporated HOMM-like mechanics of moving critters (gods) over the battlefield and having to play them through cards in a Hearthstone like mechanic - and they did not even get close to what the biggest card games are.
There are ways to make it more esport-like, but that would pretty much require the game to be more RTS-like or fast-paced to do it. Sadly, duels are actually the closest to what you could turn into a potential esport. However, the problem with the way the HOMM games work is that you usually only have 1 way of winning the game - defeat the whole army. This is where I think you would have to add a more esports-like MOBA-esque approach - make your hero or an elected champion a tower-like critter with massive HP pool depending on the strength of your army/skillset, giving the opponent the opportunity to win either by eliminating your critters or straight up butchering your hero.
The battlefield would also have to be reshaped somewhat to make it broader, more like 3-lanes (hex works best for this), which could even be accommodated into a more accurate representation of the adventure map should that one exist.
It would be possible to MOBA-fy HOMM's adventure map and make it an element of the competitive game, whereby you have a map you can move through within a limited time span (say 30 days, 9000 movement points or whatever) before the gates unlock, farm up arties, skills, bonuses, extra critters, and you can start invading each other/fight in some central arena.
But I still think duels would be the best option here. I even had the idea of how you could work through it all, but it would require some alterations to HOMM formula:
1) pick a faction - pick a champion
2) have a creature spending pool even between the players - each creature worth X amount of population and you can only have X amount of each (cap) based on cost (similarly how you do fantasy leagues but on a bigger scale) - have a timed building phase for it
2a) creatures should not be limited to one faction - make them cost X% more for cross-faction penalties
3) have a non-mobile champion/hero unit but not as a static nobody - with some abilities
4) enlarge the battlefield and make it more dynamic - if you made it large enough you could conceivably add in items into it that you should fight for on it (arties, mini-boosts for attack/defence/magic/w/e), as well as various effects to modify it
This is KIND OF where I would see a HOMM-like heading to in order for it to even be remotely considered an esports-like. Ultimately, it is very unlikely for a game like HOMM to be any esports game without it becoming a RTS-like parody of itself - it just is not fast-paced enough for mainstream consumption. But I would totally dig certain MOBA-esque elements in the game and I think they would only add to it.
The HOMM formula is awesome but it has gone stale - and me and Elvin had many a discussion over this, but in some ways, time has come for HOMM to learn from other games and not fear to get different. At that point you can scratch the HOMM out of the name and make something unique - but at least for us HOMM fans we'd know where the inspiration comes from.
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Yally
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 12, 2019 03:28 PM |
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Edited by Yally at 12:42, 13 Sep 2019.
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I also thought of multiplayer future much last time (though i'm not much a multiplayer homm gamer myself). Even made a post on ubi forum.
Actually I think it's possible to make homm an esport game. And I guess it was on original plan of Ubi when they bought homm in 2004 was to make homm mmo game or even esport (and they had mmo rpg projects at that time). But Ubi's creative producers and gamedesigners turn out to be not so creative (though it's was really a difficult task, and maybe it was not the right time for such a project, too early).
My idea is
1) if u want HOMM as esport, then you should assume that you can't make a classical homm multiplayer map esport format, it's impossiple to make it playable for 1-2 hours without ruinning traditional gameplay (homm 6 is a very good illustration of this point). At the same time duel (even with hero customization) doesn't cover the whole homm gameplay, homm victory is not only about good fight in the final battle, one can also win on the map, you can have just better hero and more troops by the final. And considering this I think it can be good idea to make something like in athletics or swimming in real sport, where sportsmen basicly have several runs maybe even not in one day (qualifiers, quater-final and so on) and we watch only final on TV. I think the gamedesigners can use 1st mission for Realag in homm5 as an idea. Like several players have equal amount of time and equal map to get prepared (it's pretty much rutine, not much interesting to view) and then heroes meet, and very possible that they won't be equal, it's a stage for viewing, it's pretty dinamic, maybe it should be done not like in homm5 mission, it should be more tournament like. Here is actually many details to think threw, but general idea is like this. And the last moment: to make a game popular esport it should be popular just as a game, Ubi needs to make good game first, not 6 or 7
2) if you want to make homm analog of mmo rpg games. Here is much more easy. Gamedesigners just need to make more maps with storyline and with cutscenes for players in ally. Maybe not even maps, but campanies. It can be analog of mmo rpg raid. And in this case game needs good AI. I think present moment for such a game is pretty good. From my point of view (I'm not in gamedev industry and i don't have statistics) mmo rpg suffers kind of idea crises, players can be easily attracted by something new. And homm has some rpg features and fantasy setting as most of mmo rpg. Besides homm has some advantages like a) it's chipper and faster to make homm maps then to make tradition dlc for mmo rpg, 2) player of tbs suffer less problems if they have poor internet connection then players of rpg or rts
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Su_Lang_Manchu
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 26, 2019 05:06 PM |
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I think TDL sums it up nicely. Don't forget that an important part of e-sports is the presentation.
Watching other people play HOMM is much like watching 2 people play chess. Yes, it is fully animated chess that has many more choices and nice to look at, but most of the action is going on in the minds of the players. Now, how are you supposed to make a commentary on that?
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted September 26, 2019 05:22 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 17:23, 26 Sep 2019.
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" is much like watching 2 people play chess." "How are you suppossed to make a commentary of that?"
Uhm, Chess is a very competitive sports.
Sure, it's heydays are gone and computers can beat any human now.
I think the arguments here show that H3 would do better as a traditional tabletop sport, than an "online" flashy sport such as Starcraft 2
The most important thing is pulicity and planning. WIthout New World Computing that isn't happening, unless Ubisoft decides to make the game free and open source.
(blizzard did make Starcraft free, tho)
I think a publisher COULD try to make the next installment an e-sport and it COULD gain traction about a new game, if they really tried.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 27, 2019 10:11 AM |
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Su_Lang_Manchu said:
Watching other people play HOMM is much like watching 2 people play chess. Yes, it is fully animated chess that has many more choices and nice to look at, but most of the action is going on in the minds of the players. Now, how are you supposed to make a commentary on that?
Well, the commentators understand (or try to) the moves of the players and speculate, study the possibilities etc. Chess tournaments have commentators.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted October 14, 2019 09:54 AM |
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To me a key of competitive gameplay is map readability. Since H3 we have been losing it, even H4 map looks a bit of a mess due to the art style and it is hard to immediately notice what is relevant in highly decorated maps.
3D makes this worse by introducing more occlusion and perspective issues.
See Startcraft 2 as an example, it is less reasable than SC1 but it has tried to adress this with a cartoonish style and isometric-like maps (square slopes, big ramps, everything graphically exaggerated and clearly marked, etc.)
Art style is a big thing as it regards reading the map correctly and seeing action in combat. DIfferentiation of background and key features that stand out and are gameplay relevant, and each having an unique design. This was very easy in Heroes 3 due to the map-inspired style and 2-dimensionality.
But you can also render 3D in an isometric way, for example.
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Alon
Known Hero
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posted October 14, 2019 01:57 PM |
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I don't think Heroes 3 would make a good e-sport. Evidently, the game came out around the same time as the original Starcraft, and even though it succeeded commercially, it did not sprout a competitive scene. I'd like to explain why, because any fan-made H8 should aim at enjoyable 1v1.
1. Most important: the turns on the overland map take too long. On my turn, my hero will have a bunch of random encounters, including PvE combat, during which other players have nothing to do.
2. There are too many turns. If the turns are short then it's fine, but they're not, so a macro game on a large map can last hours. Long, complex turns are okay if there aren't many, allowing PBEM, like the Games by Email version of Axis and Allies, where usually it takes 5-10 rounds for the losing side to GG.
3. The macro isn't all that complex. For the same reason, Red Alert did not become the e-sport sensation that Starcraft became, even though there was online play (RA invented the rush). Cities are fixed, so there really isn't much of a concept of expansion - you can take neutral towns, but then usually it's too easy to defend them. A town with a capitol will produce just enough gold to recruit all creatures with upgrades at castle growth; with city hall it's half as much, but then there's Estates. So even the decision of which army to produce isn't too difficult. With neither scouting nor economic harassment, the rock-paper-scissors of expanding, attacking, and defending doesn't exist.
4. The tech tree isn't complex. A solid build order will have you at castle, capitol, and level 7 dwellings at the end of week 2. A macro game on a large map will last several in-game months. Late game looks like mid-game with army sizes multiplied by 10.
5. The ability to take neutral towns of any alignment means that you can effectively change alignment mid-game. A competitive map would have to do hacks like make all the neutral towns that one can take as expansions have the same alignment as the nearest player's starting town - if the towns have random alignment then the game has too much randomness and the player's choice of starting town is not as important.
So what makes H3 fun to play anyway? It's the campaign, and playing versus the AI. The RPG elements are very good for single-player mode. The micro in the game is excellent too - there's complex tactics concerning how to distribute <7 different unit types across stacks, which spells to cast, which army formations are best. Micro can make for a competitive e-sport, but only if it comes alongside strategy macro, rather than just RPG elements.
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