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| Thread: [HotA] User made maps broken by changes in game mechanics |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 02, 2020 03:34 PM |
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[HotA] User made maps broken by changes in game mechanics
While the changes in some Secondary Skills may have broken some user made maps, many are arguing that's a problem of the map itself that wasn't made in such a way it could adapt to them.
I would like to counterpoint that there is only one kind of map that will always adapt to any changes and is the intended to PvP matches, be it a randomly generated or a user made one.
Let me explain, if you design and test a map where the human player starts with a Stronghold and Crag as his main hero and then Offense is nerfed to 15%, it is quite possible many battles can't be won. If you make a map with a time limit and tested for Kyrre but then Logistics is nerfed to 20%, it might become impossible to finish it in due time, etc... On the other hand, if the map is even, with several factions and heroes selectable with the same chances of winning, it won't be easily affected by these changes to the game mechanics but, for as many growth and resource bonus you might give to the computer players, it will hardly be a challenge map. More, you can't make it so the second opponent is stronger then the first one and the third stronger then the second, etc.
It's not that maps affected by the changes are bad or poorly conceived, it's that they choose a different path and the game will be much poorer if from now on there is no other way to go then even maps.
HotA as been known as a PvP oriented mod but we already made about 300 maps for it and it would be a petty if they would have to be trashed just to allow for those changes.
So please, HotA team, re-think the way you are implementing them.
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted May 02, 2020 05:21 PM |
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You're making a point and I understand why this subject irritates you.
I wish there was a easy solution for this. I know this is kinda sensitive subject, so at first I would like to say that I don't want to irritate anyone with my comments - that's not my goal.
I'm not sure how you feel about the balance changes in general, but I feel they're necessary for game developement and going forward. It's no different than balance changes in modern games. If some sort of balance is not a real target, there will be things that are either over- or underpowered. This will likely lead into a situation, where only part of all game elements are considered "worthy" to be played around. For example, since Learning is still totally useless, players will play like it doesn't exist, completely ignoring it.
Not everything needs to be (or will be) perfectly balanced, and not every build needs to be viable, but for example in Learning's case, it should have even some kind of niche use, but it currently doesn't have any.
In short, all I'm saying that balance changes need to happen, otherwise we're stuck. I think you agree with me with this in general level at least, but just wanted to point out this to everyone reading this thread.
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I'm not seeing how they would easily solve this. One can dream about "two versions" which was suggested by FirePaladin in the main thread, but in all honesty, I'm not seeing them doing that for various reasons. It's just very big amount of work, and it would be hard for them to keep their own standards and quality for both versions. Maybe if something like this was done since day 1, but as that's not the case, adding something like that and giving players the ability to toggle on or off all changes Hota has done in the past doesn't sound believable to me.
But I want to drown in negativity and I want suggest something myself:
Add some kind of special artifacts, that could only be placed in map editor. For example, an artifact that gives super logistics or crazy amount of mana etc. Those couldn't be obtained in any kind of "normal" gameplay, but they could provide some kind of tools for map makers, if they're desiring to make maps that require some circumstances to be beatable. Perhaps the creator could even choose himself how much movement points or mana etc. each artifact could bring. I know, this doesn't help much the current situation of the existing maps, but I think this could tackle some issues in the furure versions of Hota.
Peace.
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avatar
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 02, 2020 06:21 PM |
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In 2020 we have hard drives circa 1 TB. Copy of Heroes+Hota takes ~800 MB. It's not big deal to create copy of HotA 1.5.4 and play some maps parallel to Hota 1.6.1. I know, it's partial solution, but still you can play older maps.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 02, 2020 06:24 PM |
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@Hourglass I know it's not simple, that's why I didn't purposed this or that solution. But something needs to be done, because with the current attitude each change trashes a bunch of maps, namely created with the previous version, so why bother to make them?
@Avatar That's the only solution I see as things are but is a lousy solution namely because when you download a map for the first time you don't know if it will work adequately with the version you're choosing.
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Revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted May 02, 2020 06:30 PM |
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How many maps which were made with HotA 1.5 in mind were broken by 1.6 release? Please give numbers.
These changes would only hurt a very particular kind of maps like Wayfarer (which were made for SoD anyway) or heavily scripted wog maps which are for wog anyway.
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted May 02, 2020 06:31 PM |
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Still annoying to not be able to enable/disable, and needing to have a copy for other HotA versions. And newer HotA versions might even have new stuff, which we wouldn't experience in the copy.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 02, 2020 06:35 PM |
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Revolut1oN said:
How many maps which were made with HotA 1.5 in mind were broken by 1.6 release? Please give numbers.
How can I? Do you want me to play all the 292 maps in Maps4Heroes? And even if I can't succeed that doesn't prove it was this or that change that necessarily did it, I can be a too weak player to win anyway.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 02, 2020 06:47 PM |
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You guys see we need more options, when it comes to skills now?
I am not proposing an exact solution, but I am sure HotA Crew could figure something out, if they want to.
We need compatibility with all (most) maps.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 02, 2020 08:44 PM |
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Well, in general, its always the best and most creative maps who go down each time a game gets updates breaking compatibility, because such maps use extensively all features then the battle setup is super fine tuned. So I don't see the question "how many maps" having any purpose, who cares if thousand of mediocre maps nobody plays are still compatible.
On the other side, Hota team stated explicitly that they will probably change many things, until their goal of having the perfect MP balance is achieved, so when you start a hota map, think that it may not remain playable upon new updates.
I mean, Hota editor looks stunningly and I already designed about 10 major maps for Heroes, why do you think I never tried Hota? I'm not willing to take the risk.
But thats it, can't have the cake and the money for it.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 02, 2020 10:19 PM |
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I don't play HotA and I don't own a HotA. Even if I'm waiting for HotA to be ready. I have to update my HotA maps. That's why I'm waiting. Now I have fun with SoD. I should download WoG/ERA II. Because my Magician, Warrior and Master (RoE), etc are needed to update. I'm lazy also I don't know which SoD or WoG/ERA II. I did MWM quickly without check, when I thought that only team is Cove. Because of name. So HotA was beauty. Now's snow, Forge? HoMM isn't MM. Child plays Forge? Ok MWM is a special map, when I left empty place for WoG monster, for example. When I know which. I remove MWM (HotA) from maps4heroes. But I wait for HotA is ready then I know better. So you can update your The Red Tent, etc later. The best way! So play SoD and/or WoG/ERA II.
Remember HotA team makes a radical. They said kept a original. Ok then changes. So the best you wait. But Salamandre predicted non-compatibility, older HotA version you can't play. Maybe now you need to be updated The Red Tent.
I don't think so broken now. Because HotA team could succeed in creating a strong AI. Then difficulty level, etc.  Not to only secondary skill.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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wenwell
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 02, 2020 10:51 PM |
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Edited by wenwell at 22:54, 02 May 2020.
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Docent Picolan wrote on this topic recently: vk.com/paragon_homm3?w=wall-174521913_2546%2Fall
You can use google translate and get that: "The most radical changes are over. Some more changes in skills and magic will follow, but from a certain moment, changes in the original elements will stop completely. This is not some kind of chaotic process, there is a specific plan for rebalancing magic and skills - it has an endpoint and with each release it is getting closer."
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 02, 2020 11:20 PM |
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@wenwell Thx, finally some kind of good news.
@Ghost Believe it or not, I couldn't care less about "The Red Tent" nowadays. That map was made before the new Template Editor was out and with it I can recreate his dynamic over and over again in just a few minutes, for instance the new "Power Castle Forever Cpt. 1" does something similar and while it might still need some refinements I believe it has a better gameplay.
But I had started a much more complex map, making use of 4 heroes with great specialties (inspired by the "The Bogmire Brothers" from Maygwan) and guess what, when I had about 200 hours of work done two of the heroes I was using and testing battles with (Logistics and Intelligence specialists) got their specialties nerfed and all the tests will need to be repeated.
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Winston
Known Hero
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posted May 03, 2020 12:08 AM |
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Edited by Winston at 00:19, 03 May 2020.
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I understand your point and agree with it strongly, but the thing is that HotA team does not appear to care. Their mod is chiefly for PvP tournaments and their directive is to remodel the game into their image as they see fit. The sad reality is that for singleplayer, you aren't going to get any solutions to this problem. HotA does everything they can to prevent modding to change things back so you can get your custom HotA maps to work how you want, and they will never make their changes and removal of original game mechanics/features optionally togglable aspects of the HotA mod. Basically, "it's my way or the highway", although I would be overjoyed for them to prove me wrong and make their changes optional and give freedom to players to pick and choose parts of the mod.
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Revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted May 03, 2020 06:14 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
How can I? Do you want me to play all the 292 maps in Maps4Heroes? And even if I can't succeed that doesn't prove it was this or that change that necessarily did it, I can be a too weak player to win anyway.
What I mean is that a great majority of maps can still be completed regardless of whether logistics is 20% or 30%. Only a very limited ammount of truly hardcore puzzle maps, where everything is calculated up to a single movement tile will surely become unplayable.
IMO if one follows that logic, then any change to the existing mechanics should be prohibited. Where to draw the line? What if there was a map made for RoE which was designed around Archangels costing only 5000 gold and no gems? The patch which made them cost 3 gems would cripple the map.
What I mean, this is all hypothetical. You assume that there are some maps somewhere and that there happens something after a patch is released. There might be a few maps affected indeed, but I would bet dollars against donuts that among those 300 mentioned maps there are maximum 5 that are completely impossible to beat now and the rest is still perfectly fine.
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted May 03, 2020 06:19 PM |
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@Revolut1on
Yeah, I don't expect there to be that many such maps, but still annoying when happens.
Btw, on another thread, by family I meant playing HoMM with the kids, sorry dude for the confusion.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Romanov77
Known Hero
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posted May 03, 2020 11:05 PM |
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Can't everything be solved with a simple switch or two for single player?
I start map, and then I decide to allow the vanilla skills, so I get Cove, Factory, quality of life, new adventure map stuff but still get the old skills/spells.
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted May 03, 2020 11:14 PM |
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Romanov77 said:
Can't everything be solved with a simple switch or two for single player?
I start map, and then I decide to allow the vanilla skills, so I get Cove, Factory, quality of life, new adventure map stuff but still get the old skills/spells.
Tell this to the game code. But hey, they might be able to "break" the code somehow and implement that, but from what I've read, the HotA team wants you to have the game a certain way and only that way and done.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted May 03, 2020 11:34 PM |
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Romanov77 said:
Can't everything be solved with a simple switch or two for single player?
I start map, and then I decide to allow the vanilla skills, so I get Cove, Factory, quality of life, new adventure map stuff but still get the old skills/spells.
I'm afraid there are people who would feel this isn't enough, and basically would want to choose between each change:
"I want that slow nerf, but the original armageddon!"
" Mysticism is really good as it should now, but give me that pre-nerfed necromancy!"
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Winston
Known Hero
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posted May 04, 2020 04:44 AM |
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Romanov77 said:
Can't everything be solved with a simple switch or two for single player?
I start map, and then I decide to allow the vanilla skills, so I get Cove, Factory, quality of life, new adventure map stuff but still get the old skills/spells.
This would be the most ideal solution and would in fact remove every complaint there is to be had with HotA, but it's never going to happen.
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shev441
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 05, 2020 03:03 PM |
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Edited by shev441 at 15:08, 05 May 2020.
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Really I TOTALLY don't understand those kind of problems that some users have. Changes that are in HOTA are also benefitial for single player game. I like to play online and I like to play single scenerio/campaign from time to time and even in single player area its way more fun to play after 1.6 changes. Skills like Mysticism are finally working properly and is not total piece of garbage. Same goes for changes in Intelligence and Necromancy/Diplomacy. Is it really that enjobyable for you to play 20 year old game and exploit obv broken mechanic of Diplomacy to crash computer players who are not even that smart? Well, than good for you but majority of players expect some sort of balance introduced.
On top you ARE still able to play old game that you love so much in SOD or even Hota 1.5 where balance changes are subtle. Plus I often hear that there are tons of maps that are broken now. Really? Can you make a list at least of 20 maps that are unplayable? And even if you could which i doubt than they were obviesly prepered for SoD/ older Hota versions so there is not really a point in playing them on newer version cause they don't have objects from new versions used in them anyway. Also most of modern computers have at least 500/1000GB hard drives so I think that if you really that pasionat about 20 year old game to write post on forums you will be able to find another 400 mb on your dics to keep both versions (1.4.2/1.5.1 and 1.6.1).
I am very happy with direction that Hota is taking and I'm waiting for another balance changes in secondary skills (learning, first aid, eagle eye) and magic (earth magic is way more powerfull than other magics). Hope that Hota Crew won't listen to malcontent and will keep their direction.
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