|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
posted June 15, 2020 12:02 PM |
|
|
You are wrong. Give me the statistics of unarmed blacks killed by police in one year, the statistics of interactions police/population, then compare with the press saying "today being black in USA is a death sentence".
I wait.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 12:05 PM |
|
|
So, they read the papers, watch TV and buy into this completely artificial world, and the media does that because of what, so that they overthrow Trump, really Sal? How about before Trump? It wasnt much different.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 12:09 PM |
|
|
|
If nobody dies or/and suffers, nobody buys news.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 12:10 PM |
|
|
Dont they buy news in, say, Denmark?
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 12:20 PM |
|
|
|
hey we talk about a politically extreme polarized country, not some north Europe tribe of soothing fishermen.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 12:27 PM |
|
|
|
But in a politically extremely polarized country - and here we are back at step one - statistics and media can't change anything because the polarization is already there. So your line of arguing makes no sense.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 12:31 PM |
|
|
The polarization is caused by the manipulation of data.
I still wait your statistics.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 12:48 PM |
|
|
Then why is the population not polarized elsewhere?
This may interest you.
Incarceration rate in the US and in comparison
In the US more persons are in prison than in Russia, ten times as many as in Germany - and there are regional differences, as the map makes it clear.
Happenstance?
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 01:01 PM |
|
|
Of course you won't put on paper statistics related to black minorities being or NOT abused, or police being unprofessional - the subject of this thread, as they will instantly invalidate all the crap being wrote here. Instead you will switch to anything else, as long as it creates some smoke
Let me refresh your memory:
350 millions police/population interactions/year.
9 unarmed black killed
18 unarmed people killed in 2018 (all races)
Number of people dying in USA every year because medical errors: more than 250 000
Let's defund the hospitals.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 01:08 PM |
|
Edited by blob2 at 13:18, 15 Jun 2020.
|
artu said:
Who are the ones with guns? I dont get how that fits to what you quoted from me.
If you seriously think the exhaustion about police brutality over there is about people not being able to shoot cops, we are wasting our time here.
I've meant police have guns (which they still have atm), so by tackling them, you know what you're getting into. Even a drunk guy knows that I believe?
I really wonder what effect taking away guns from police, which seems to be the direction in which it's going into, will have on the populace.
That said however I try to approach this is a lost cause. Clearly I have a different set of values then some other people here. Some of you are right with police authority being too much, some things are easy to judge from a distance (as it's always with Internets), some cases seem to have only one definitive answer, especially when they are backed up by social pressure.
I cannot understand why a disobedient citizen is glorified, and policeman doing their job with accordance to law are made public enemies because everyone and their grandma is protesting now. This stands in contrast with the values I've been taught: behave, police won't have a need to use force unless it's a misunderstanding or the cop is hyperactive, which happens (not in Brooks case though, as the policeman were clearly polite through and through until he started resisting, which caught them off guard as much as anyone probably). You can ask if a tragedy could have been avoided, but as always the truth lies somewhere in between. A law abiding intoxicated citizen wouldn't ask someone to drive him home, wouldn't he? It's better to put himself in such a situation? It's better to sleep on a drive-way? He was caught red-handed (car was running), resisted and shot because he pointed a weapon at an officer. Guy turned out to be a threat, if he was capable of attacking police officers who knows what background he could have had, at this point he might've been a criminal that resisted arrest cus he had something to hide, black or not? You tell the police to catch a bad guy, yet when tragedy happens you have at least a dozen ideas how cops could have handled it differently in the heat of the moment, even in extreme situations that 99% of population will never experience themselves. You want to stop the killing? Take their guns away, but also take the guns from the American population (which is impossible cus lobbies and culture).
Besides.
The torrent of changes has already started. Some are positive, some not so much, some are for PR, some are too late.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/12/opinions/great-awakening-empathy-solidarity-george-floyd-jones/index.html
So you have your changes, police are bad and will be in many cases defunded/shunned/disbanded/contract-terminated. No use to even defend them at this point.
At the end of the day I must make a examination of conscience and stop posting about a country far away and try to understand it, because crazy people live and govern there.
Over and out.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 01:29 PM |
|
|
Salamandre said:
Of course you won't put on paper statistics related to black minorities being or NOT abused, or police being unprofessional - the subject of this thread, as they will instantly invalidate all the crap you wrote here. Instead you will switch to anything else, as long as it creates some smoke
Let me refresh your memory:
350 millions police/population interactions/year.
9 unarmed black killed
18 unarmed people killed in 2018 (all races)
Number of people dying in USA every year because medical errors: more than 250 000
Let's defund the hospitals.
Your statistics are wrong. (Source?)
People shot by police in 2015
Reasons for shooting (first 10 months)
Anyway, excusing one thing with another is a strawman. (In this case, something else seems worse, forget the issue).
The REAL question with your 250.000 medical error dead would be how they are divided on race and income, because, if you paid close attention, what I'm saying the whole time is that the SYSTEM sucks and leads via economic realities to something looking like racism, but the racism has been inserted into the system prior to that due to the economic realities.
If you are a poor sod in the US, you are realy screwed because the system works AGAINST you. And there are many (in relation) black poor sods.
That is the issue. Being economically disadvantaged is one thing. But living in a legal system that will use that fact against you - you could just as well live in a system that works with bribes right away, doesn't make much difference.
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 01:37 PM |
|
|
Salamandre said:
hey we talk about a politically extreme polarized country, not some north Europe tribe of soothing fishermen.
Nope, we talk about an extremely polarized two parties system with no real ideological differences between them.
Just ear what Obama had to say here, after 1.05 minute: 40 yards fight
And he painted it as a good thing...
This is the main problem in America today, you really don't have an alternative. It's Tweedledee and Tweedledum.
So people feel disenfranchised and don't vote but instead take the streets in protests.
Or vote Trump, which according to you some time ago, was "sticking the middle finger to" establishment democrats and their propaganda outlets, in the 2016 elections.
____________
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 02:01 PM |
|
|
JollyJoker said:
Your statistics are wrong. (Source?)
People shot by police in 2015
My statistics, as written in my post, were UNARMED people, which translates into police errors. Source
Giving statistics of people killed by police, without precising the circumstances, is like accusing a formula 1 pilot of driving fast. Where, when, how, relevant questions.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 02:14 PM |
|
|
You should read what you quote, though, before you are posting nonsense.
Quote:
In 2015, police shot and killed 94 unarmed individuals, a number that fell to 51 in 2016 before rising to 68 in 2017. This year, police have shot and killed 18 unarmed people, eight fewer than at the same time last year .
The article is of May 8th - so it actually doesn't say anything at all, since we have no idea how 2018 turned out and 2019 either. All we know is that 2016 saw a pretty steep decline, but numbers went somewhat up in 2017 again.
However, this are the official numbers only. The article you quoted goes on:
Quote:
The ongoing Post project [The Post researchers began tracking deadly police shootings in 2015] has found that police have shot and killed 3,309 people since 2015, or more than twice as many fatal shootings per year as the average reported by the FBI. Of those killed, 231, or 7 %, were not armed with guns, knives or other objects that could be used as weapons at the time of the shootings, according to the data.
A review of the shootings of unarmed people shows that officers were reported to be under physical attack in about 40 % of the cases. The remaining 60 % involved a variety of circumstances, including individuals’ making provocative movements or verbal threats (31 %) or fleeing, or being shot unintentionally or in undetermined circumstances, according to a review of news reports and video of the incidents...
Since The Post began tracking fatal police shootings, blacks have been shot and killed at rates significantly higher than their percentage of the overall U.S. population. Blacks make up about 13 % of the population but 23 % of those fatally shot by police since 2015. For shootings of unarmed people, blacks were 36 % of those killed.
In 2016, Alpert, working with Justin Nix, a criminologist at the University of Nebraska in Omaha, used the Post database and demographic data to examine the racial disparities in unarmed shootings in 2015.
That year, police killed 38 unarmed blacks and 32 unarmed whites. Whites accounted for 49 % of all 2015 fatal police shootings, while blacks constituted 26 %. The academic researchers found that blacks who were fatally shot were twice as likely to be unarmed as whites.
The one interesting thing is, that in 2016 and 2017 the numbers for blacks in relation to whites dropped, while for 2018, at the time of the article there were not enough data. Would be interesting to see an update of this, but in any event this article you quoted doesn't support your point of view.
EDIT: This article is about the costs of police brutality.
Quote:
New York City pays by far the most. In 2017, it paid a record $302 million for police misconduct lawsuits, according to the city controller’s office.
Just to throw in a figure.
EDIT 2: Brooks' death has been declared homicide, by the way.
Medical exam found that he was shot in the back, twice.
EDIT 3: Oh, and concerning this:
Salamandre said:
Number of people dying in USA every year because medical errors: more than 250 000
Let's defund the hospitals.
The first thing is that the numbers are extrapolated from samples. And I quote from the article the article is based upon:
Quote:
The researchers caution that most of medical errors aren’t due to inherently bad doctors, and that reporting these errors shouldn’t be addressed by punishment or legal action. Rather, they say, most errors represent systemic problems, including poorly coordinated care, fragmented insurance networks, the absence or underuse of safety nets, and other protocols, in addition to unwarranted variation in physician practice patterns that lack accountability
So actually "medical errors" paint a completely wrong picture (basically as with the police); sure, single cops and docs make mistakes, but the actual culprit is the system.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 07:34 PM |
|
|
@Sal
Okay, I wont get into “your stats versus mine” like JJ. I’ll assume your stats reflect the overall situation. Even if that is so, police brutality, mistreatment, racial profiling doesnt only mean directly shooting unarmed people. You pick the most extreme misconduct and say “see how in fact it is all bubble” while explaining a consistent and widespread behavior against arrests which can only be defined as borderline suicidal by “they are brainwashed by the media which wants to sell more.” In the Floyd case, why do you think the cop kept on what he did despite being aware there were cameras. Because he considered it normal. In these recent years, I watched two other videos where cops accidentally choked suspects. You should seriously stop blaming the media for everything, yes, the media can manipulate things to some extent but it cant create a problem that doesnt exist and stick to it for decades. They are simply not that powerful. And there is not only the liberal media, conservatives also have their own mainstream media (which, as far as I know, is more popular in poorer neighborhoods, they dont read the New York Times in the ghetto.) Suggesting whole communities act according to liberal media manipulation is beyond far-fetched.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 08:04 PM |
|
|
Yes, that what I say as well.
But it's systemic. The "land of the free" has the most people in prison in relation to their pop, 660 per 100.000 (with some States having nearly 1000). That's clearly a systemic problem.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 08:31 PM |
|
|
artu said:
@Sal Okay, I wont get into “your stats versus mine” like JJ.
Well, you should because statistics reflect reality, which CNN opinions don't. But of course, as I said, if you look at statistics all the crap written here is instantly vaporized so instead you start speculating and switch subjects.
Like asking me why I consider police brutality only when they kill an unarmed guy. Maybe because that's exactly why America is now the epicenter of a worldwide riot? Have you heard of... George Floyd?
JollyJoker said:
Since The Post began tracking fatal police shootings, blacks have been shot and killed at rates significantly higher than their percentage of the overall U.S. population. Blacks make up about 13 % of the population but 23 % of those fatally shot by police since 2015. For shootings of unarmed people, blacks were 36 % of those killed.
I don't know why you bold this, like you got the Grail. You show the effects but deliberately choose to ignore the causes, "la-la I don't want to hear". Knowing that blacks, 13% of the population, commit 52% of the homicides, those statistics reflect reality. They will be much more arrested, killed and will be more often subjects of abuses and errors.
Dig?
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 09:20 PM |
|
|
Lol, yes, sure, because there are a lot of black on black gang wars the cops shoot in relation double as much UNARMED blacks than whites. Doesn't make much sense this side of reality.
And, no, YOUR statistics vaporize only YOUR OWN crappy statements.
Last question: police brutality is of note only when an unarmed guy is KILLED (as opposed to an UNARMED guy is killed)?
I wouldn't think so, because killing unarmed men qualifies as homicide and not brutality - like in the Brooks case you have dismissed.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 09:59 PM |
|
|
@Sal
Even the post of mine, you quote by cherrypicking a sentence gives Floyd as an example! The riots are triggered by the most extreme events, yes, but such events are the waterdrop that overflows the glass. They are the tip of the iceberg, they wouldn’t have the same significance had there not been a deeper social issue behind them. That’s why for instance, if cops happen to kill an Italian-American, Italian-Americans dont start riots. You are in this fantasy land in which you explain a decades old social issue with pure media manipulation (and havent addressed anything I said about that.)
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 15, 2020 10:13 PM |
|
|
Salamandre said:
Knowing that blacks, 13% of the population, commit 52% of the homicides, those statistics reflect reality.
The funny thing is, and by the blacks' own admission, the percentage doing all that killing is more like 3%. And, these are the people cops get to deal with. All while being hated from every direction but the bootlicking right. I'm not sympathetic, mind you. Nobody drafted them; they joined of their own free will.
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
