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| Thread: Kogwin's Ideas Thread | |
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 16, 2020 07:52 AM |
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Kogwin's Ideas Thread
Not much to say, just posting this because Kogwin can't start threads himself yet.
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veteran_player
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 16, 2020 08:32 PM |
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vision of HoMM
Thank you, Matt!
We have some refreshing inter-thread generational confluence going here!  All towards the same purpose: the rebirth of HoM&M as a TBS cult-classic!
My generation thanks you!... 
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veteran_player
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 17, 2020 06:46 PM |
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Evolution of HoMM (1995 - 2018)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-TB8h4vU_M&t=2s
This video illustrates some of my points - graphically..
However, in keeping with Kogwin's Ideas... there can also be tbs de-volution(MMHVII??)... but ultimately... keeping with the times... we all want another generational leap forward... like HoMMV was at the time!(2006-7)
It should be as fun and engaging as the original HoMM!
My thread(http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=46124) covers the two and a half decades since its release... as well as what divides and connects us - strategy-wise - to this day!
It has been rewarding posting here! 
Thank you all! 
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Alon
Known Hero
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posted August 18, 2020 12:18 AM |
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Just to remind everyone, this is the proposal we're discussing, by Kogwin:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NdqKMuNR1TJr-Z61VTE2bYvis8woD9nq/view?usp=sharing
tl;dr: it's a hyper-detailed design doc for a game that's for the most part based on Heroes 5. Units have a choice between two upgrades; the faction list is the eight of H5 plus a water faction, Atlantis, that I think comes from H6; the skill system looks like an evolution of H5-7; the Academy is desert-flavored.
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veteran_player
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 18, 2020 01:22 AM |
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Alon said:
Just to remind everyone, this is the proposal we're discussing, by Kogwin:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NdqKMuNR1TJr-Z61VTE2bYvis8woD9nq/view?usp=sharing
tl;dr: it's a hyper-detailed design doc for a game that's for the most part based on Heroes 5. Units have a choice between two upgrades; the faction list is the eight of H5 plus a water faction, Atlantis, that I think comes from H6; the skill system looks like an evolution of H5-7; the Academy is desert-flavored.
I have only one word...
E.P.I.C.
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kogwin
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 18, 2020 05:39 AM |
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Thank you all for your enthusiasm!
I appreciate that my hard work can be read and reviewed by many HOMM fans like me out there. This makes everything worthwhile.
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kogwin
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 18, 2020 06:12 AM |
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Jiriki9 said:
MattII said:
Okay, new thread up specifically for Kogwin's proposal.
And to get back to the original proposal, I wanted to comment on it as well.
features:
the features seem solid, though not overly creative, imo. However they feel like they would work, and they combine good aspects of the previous games, which I like.
Knight
I do like the idea of castle as "no supernatural beings" town, but the lineup, imo, suffers what most castle lineups of this style do...a feeling of variety: 4 units that are just "infantry" in style, 2 cavalry units, an archer and a priest. To me, that is just too basic. At least, I would suggest switching the Nomad for something more creative. I would also take the swordsman out, preferredly, between militia, pikeman and crusader. Non-holy ideas could include:
-Bred&Trained War Dogs (With a chance to do what they wish instead of orders, probably rising if the stray too far from allied units)
-Falconer (ranged, the falcon attacked)
-Pioneers or Sappers as a defensive support unit
-Witch Hunters or Inquisitors, trained to fight especially against the supernatural that this faction does not have
I also would have liked to see more creative things in the abilities.
BARBARIAN
Again, a bit more variety might still have suited the faction. This is clearest in Tier 4, where you have...a hairy beast and a frosty hairy beast...Ogres on Tier 2 feels strange to me, as well...but I can understand the choice. Overall, the lineup again feels rather solid than great.
Ranger
Though creativity again is not the main point here, I do like that lineup. I do find Unicorn in top tier strange, though. But why not.
Warlock
This feels like Dungeon meets fortres and with subterranean as terrain, it has too many and unfitting flyers for me. Wasps underground especially, feel strange to me, and could be replaced by a creature similar in gameplay, but maybe more fitting, f.e. a bat. Wyvern also feels un-underground to me, but that is mainly because I have H3 in the head, probably. I wonder, also, that you regard this your most conservative faction, as your others mostly seemed equally conservative to me.
Wizard
Again a solid, likeable, but not very outstanding lineup. The inclusion of Simurgh makes sense.
Necromancer
I must say, while htis is also very conservative, it is my favorite lineup in your proposal. And I think the reason that it is so conservative, is that it is both easy and hard at the same time, to be creative with Necromancer. I also like the ability, and the general debuff-feel of the faction.
Dark Lord
I am a bit dividided towards the name alone, here. It sounds a bit...childish, to be honest. THis again follows the conservative route and for this faction, I think it could definitely use more creativity, because there is SO much option for it. THus, while it working well, probably, it frankly feels a bit boring to me.
Beastmaster
I like the inclusion of this faction, finally bringing something not-that-conservative into your faction lineup. And I also like the lineup and would like to play it.
Sorceress
I got intrigued by this faction at first sight, combining Sacntuary and Cove. I especially liked the Kraken with it's mini earthquake here.
Overall, your proposal feels very conservative and could be a bit bolder, to me. The main reason for that is, if I want to play Homm3, I just play it, and need no new version of it, necessarily.  I would especially like more features that bring something new into the gameplay, when the lineups are so conservative.
Also the 4-tier-system of H4 was not one of its strongest parts, imo. I like, though, that you are not making the choice thing, and keeping lineups.
Yes, I agree. My proposal of creature line-ups seem to be very conservative. There are many reasons for this:
- I am a conservative player. In my humble opinion, what happened to Heroes 7 is what would happen when creativity is not in check. Each faction has a motif, a "soul" so it cannot deviate too far away. For example, Haven is modeled after Western Medieval Military, Western religion and folklore in real world. So stuff like War Dogs seem weird to me. However, I welcome the idea of Falconers, Sappers, or Witch Hunters. I will look into that.
- There is a strategic arrangement that must be made before choosing a creature name. Each faction must be arranged in a balance way that each have about two/three infantry, two flyers, one/two casters, two large creatures. These line-ups must be arranged carefully so the faction don't overlap with each other a lot. For example, if Haven have a tier 2 shooter then there can only be one or maximum two other factions have a tier 2 shooter, or if Sylvan have a tier 3 flyer then only one or two other factions have a tier 3 flyer. This arrangement takes priority so it may limit my creativity.
- Creature line-up is not my sole focus. I have worked on many other details such as complex skill wheel, hero specialties, more spells, more creature abilities, more equipment...
However, I appreciate your thought on this. We can use some new ideas here. For example:
- Haven can have some special tatic units like Falconers, Sapper... replacing good old Griffin with the hyppogriff or winged lion.
- Dungeon can use some more underground or cave creatures such as bats, troglobites
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted August 18, 2020 06:50 AM |
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My answer in the original thread (which you quote here) was my reaction to LizardWizards proposal.
I haven't read through yours yet, but I hope I'll manage, and then I'll react here.
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Alon
Known Hero
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posted August 18, 2020 07:01 AM |
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Meta-question: your proposal is extremely synthetic in the sense of looking like a complete product with stats, special abilities, and skills. So it's weird to think of it in terms of analytical questions about balance and strategies. So, help me, please - what is the difference between the two upgrade options for each unit? In other words, if I play Haven vs. (say) Academy, when do I upgrade pike to sentinels and when do I upgrade to praetorians? If I encounter mass cabir, what do I build?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 18, 2020 09:29 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 10:18, 18 Aug 2020.
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My main issue with it is that it's based in/on Ashan, which was honestly rather bland. I mean, the Dwarves use runes, which are Nordic, yet seem to have few other Nordic traits to them. In Norse sagas, the dwarves were the ones to create Mjornir (Thor's Hammer), Gungnir (Odin's Spear), and Gullinbursti (Freyja's Boar), amongst other things, yet we don't see that in the games.
Mind you, the idea to use Google Docs to make a post is pretty neat. Might have a go at it myself some time. Almost certainly won't be as extensive as this though.
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veteran_player
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 18, 2020 05:16 PM |
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MattII said:
Not much to say, just posting this because Kogwin can't start threads himself yet.
kogwin said:
Thank you all for your enthusiasm!
I appreciate that my hard work can be read and reviewed by many HOMM fans like me out there. This makes everything worthwhile.
Thanks to our enthusiasm, the community, and the broader fan-base in general, we have accumulated enough content and material as well as ideas to stimulate/motivate the development of a new HoM&M title/product! One that is hopefully standalone and unique in the tbs world in general and the HoM&M series in particular... Hopefully, a better alternative to Heroes 3, which, to this day, seems to get most of the fans' attention( ). 25 years is a long time, but not wasted, as it can also give us better perspectives, as adults... I believe the strategy genre of computer games is the most positive and beneficial to our personal growth as human beings, tbs even more so... assuming that we can get past persistent, childish fixation on Heroes 3!!!
Gracias, amigos!!
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Alon
Known Hero
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posted August 18, 2020 09:52 PM |
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MattII said:
My main issue with it is that it's based in/on Ashan, which was honestly rather bland. I mean, the Dwarves use runes, which are Nordic, yet seem to have few other Nordic traits to them. In Norse sagas, the dwarves were the ones to create Mjornir (Thor's Hammer), Gungnir (Odin's Spear), and Gullinbursti (Freyja's Boar), amongst other things, yet we don't see that in the games.
I think fantasy generally likes to make the dwarves Germanic? Hell, in my D&D campaign, my PC is a mountain dwarf from a society explicitly based on Switzerland. It feels weird, though, since Northern Europeans have pretty much always been taller than the rest of the world (it's the meat consumption, I think? Northern Europe ate a lot of meat for a pre-industrial civilization). But in general I don't even mind how Ashan renders the dwarves.
The real thing that bothers me re mythological basis is the H5 Academy. I wish the devs had asked Middle Easterners to look over it first. The architecture and clothing styles and hero names scream "this is based on the Middle East," but the creatures come from all over, and only the jinni is Middle Eastern, whereas the actually Middle Eastern roc is given over to the stronghold.
I wonder if it's possible to even redo the entire basis of towns, from the way Heroes does it to a distinction based on real-world origins. So there's the European town, filled with army types used in medieval Europe and creatures that are depicted positively in European mythologies like the griffin and the angel; a Chinese town, with siege engineers, hand cannons, and positively-depicted creatures like the wingless-but-still-flying dragon; a Middle Eastern town, with mounted archers and creatures like the jinni, the simurgh, and maybe the behemoth; and an Indian town, with war elephants and rakshasas and nagas.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted August 19, 2020 07:39 PM |
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If we are talking about recycling visual references or cultural origins, then redoing things would be a thing. I don't particularly think this is an issue on this case.
If the author did his own artwork, for example, he could depict things in a way that they would all fit well together, even if we merge mythical creatures from my country, for example, and those of Europe and East Asia. And knitting them side by side with new lore should suffice. We need to keep in mind that, in the creatures' point of view, there is no America, Europe and whanot.
The focus should be on the basic perks of these creatures/units, what they are really known for and why they were singled out. We know that a lot of these creatures were terrible, right? But which one used to turn people into stone when staring at them? Which of those lured sailors into the water with beautiful voices and charm? Having a starting point to identify that unit is all that takes to string together the line up. Then you make do to have them all fit like they belong together as well.
Ah, and congratulations to the author for having the discipline to be able to amass all the content. My head is just like that, full of stuff to write down, specially regarding Heroes which so deranged from anything I would still call fun to play, so I do write down very slowly and sparingly, trying not to get too obsessed. ^_^
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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kogwin
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 26, 2020 05:46 AM |
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Alon said:
Meta-question: your proposal is extremely synthetic in the sense of looking like a complete product with stats, special abilities, and skills. So it's weird to think of it in terms of analytical questions about balance and strategies. So, help me, please - what is the difference between the two upgrade options for each unit? In other words, if I play Haven vs. (say) Academy, when do I upgrade pike to sentinels and when do I upgrade to praetorians? If I encounter mass cabir, what do I build?
Dear Alon,
Here how it works?
When you build an upgrade version of a creature dwelling within a town, you can recruit an upgrade version of that tier creature. Each tier creature has 02 upgrade choices that player can freely choose to recruit between each one.
For example, you can recruit either sentinels or praetorians at any time and freely change your mind.
For tier 7 creature, there is also another catch. Each faction has 02 options for their tier 7 creature. They can only choose to build a dwelling for either one, but not both. For example, Haven can only choose between Angel and Angelic Dragon.
Once you made your tier 7 decision in a town, you can never go back. However, you can choose a different one at a different Haven town.
Upgrading your tier 7 creature is the same as other tiers. You also have 02 different versions of upgrade for each one.
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kogwin
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 26, 2020 06:03 AM |
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MattII said:
My main issue with it is that it's based in/on Ashan, which was honestly rather bland. I mean, the Dwarves use runes, which are Nordic, yet seem to have few other Nordic traits to them. In Norse sagas, the dwarves were the ones to create Mjornir (Thor's Hammer), Gungnir (Odin's Spear), and Gullinbursti (Freyja's Boar), amongst other things, yet we don't see that in the games.
Mind you, the idea to use Google Docs to make a post is pretty neat. Might have a go at it myself some time. Almost certainly won't be as extensive as this though.
Yes, I have thought about that. It is hard to integrate those ideas into the game without disturbing the game balance.
Here are the few things that I have added:
- Fortress unique set items - MAGIC FORGER - is based on the idea of Mjornir and Thor's power of Thunder
- The Fenrir - tier 7 creature - is a new idea I got from Norse Mythology
I know it is not much. I tried my best here.
Please give me some of your ideas.
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kogwin
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 26, 2020 06:19 AM |
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veteran_player said:
MattII said:
Not much to say, just posting this because Kogwin can't start threads himself yet.
kogwin said:
Thank you all for your enthusiasm!
I appreciate that my hard work can be read and reviewed by many HOMM fans like me out there. This makes everything worthwhile.
Thanks to our enthusiasm, the community, and the broader fan-base in general, we have accumulated enough content and material as well as ideas to stimulate/motivate the development of a new HoM&M title/product! One that is hopefully standalone and unique in the tbs world in general and the HoM&M series in particular... Hopefully, a better alternative to Heroes 3, which, to this day, seems to get most of the fans' attention(). 25 years is a long time, but not wasted, as it can also give us better perspectives, as adults... I believe the strategy genre of computer games is the most positive and beneficial to our personal growth as human beings, tbs even more so... assuming that we can get past persistent, childish fixation on Heroes 3!!!
Gracias, amigos!!
Thank you for your compliment!
I have the same thought as you. It is the reason I still occasionally play H3 and H5 today and I am a 33-year-old man with a proper job.
Like many fans out there, I am also stuck at Heroes 3 a lot. However, I also have my unyielding passion to get over it to develop a better alternative - which is this Manual right here.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 26, 2020 01:51 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 23:06, 26 Aug 2020.
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One issue I do have with the proposal is that the creature abilities only get explained down on page four-hundred-and-something, whereas, if you eliminate the icons (they're really not needed for creature abilities. I known H4 did it, but they had pop-up boxes with explanations), you could actually put the ability descriptions with the creatures, making things much more intuitive.
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ArdentWyrm
Famous Hero
King of the Elder Dragons
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posted November 14, 2022 11:33 PM |
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When I click on the link it says the page you are looking for does not exist.
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