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| Thread: Sharpshooters VS Grand elves |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Milamber
Adventuring Hero
Magician of the greater path
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posted May 05, 2002 04:42 AM |
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Sharpshooters VS Grand elves
I personally think that 'sharpshooters' are better than 'grand elves', but as you all would know it also depends on the hero's abilities and also what creatue gets the first turn. But i still think that 'sharpshooters' are better than 'grand elves'.
sharpshooters may be better because on the campaign "armageddonds blade" your starting hero is 'gelu' (the man with long red haired on the starting movie, i think.) anyway he can upgrade 'elves', 'grand elves', 'archers', and 'marksmen' into 'shapshoters'
When i battled sharpshooters against grand elves the shapshooters normally won (3-4 out of 5 times, or 8 out of 10 times.)
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SHARPSHOOTERS | GRANDELVES
ATK: 12 | 9
DEF: 10 | 5
SPD: 9 | 7
SHOTS: 32 | 24
HEALTH: 15 | 15
SPECIAL: No Range Penalty | Shoots Twice
DMG: 8-10 | 3-5
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Patashu
Adventuring Hero
I'm sure something goes here..
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posted May 05, 2002 06:26 AM |
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sharpshooters win
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DonGio
Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
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posted May 05, 2002 11:22 AM |
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Does anyone actually prefer Grand Elves over Sharpshooters??????????????
It's a strange world...
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There are 10 types of people: Those who read binary, and those who don't.
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted May 06, 2002 01:07 AM |
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Welcome to the Library, oh proclaimer of the painfully obvious. Of course Sharpshooters are better than grandelves!!!
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Odvin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 08, 2002 02:30 PM |
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2Milamber:
Oh Milamber, just HOW could you write "gelu"??? He's Gelu, not gelu! Btw he's my favourite hero in H3. It's time to smash anything that stands on the way of Gelu's SHARPSHOOTERS!
2Patashu:
Not "Sharpshotters win". Sharpshooters ALWAYS win against GE.
So I think you understood me. I never choose GE if I can have Sharpies, although they are very expensive.
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PhoebeDuViels
Known Hero
Que?
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posted May 09, 2002 09:24 AM |
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re:
sharpshooter...they don't have any penalty range. So they have to win
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CENSORED MATERIAL NOT APPROPRIATE FOR CHILDREN !
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Gem
Known Hero
Sorceress/Druid
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posted May 09, 2002 02:11 PM |
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How many times does a sharpshooter shoot? Anyway, even if it shoots once, it gets rid of the grand elf becauseof better statistics as well as ability to shoot without the range and siege wall penalties.
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Live in peace, don't rest in it.
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Shadow_Phoenix
Known Hero
Shadow Ruler
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posted May 11, 2002 12:16 AM |
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There is thread about this in the tavern that I created a long time ago. You should check it.
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milamber
Adventuring Hero
Magician of the greater path
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posted December 11, 2003 10:05 AM |
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to Shadow_Phoenix: yes i'm on my way
to Gem: but really you are multiplying the grand elves attack because they have 2 shots so it would really be
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SHARPSHOOTERS | GRANDELVES |GE turn X2
ATK: 12 | 9x2 |18
DEF: 10 | 5 -
SPD: 9 | 7 -
SHOTS: 32 | 24/2 |12
HEALTH: 15 | 15 -
SPECIAL: No Range Penalty | Shoots Twice |shoots one
DMG: 8-10 | 3-5
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to PhoebeDuViels: but what if the GE And SS were getting attacked at close range, the GE would win
to Odvin: ... RIIIGGGHHHHTTT ...
to DonGio: actually i do
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 "....student of black robes and friend of Valheru...."
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Client
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 11, 2003 01:41 PM |
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at close range SS would still win because it will shoot first and has 2x more dmg that GE has
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Delfontes
Known Hero
Sorcerer Extraordinaire
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posted December 11, 2003 05:06 PM |
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Ok, so an upgrade is better than before the upgrade?
Thanks, good to know.
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consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted December 11, 2003 09:40 PM |
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Edited By: consis on 4 Feb 2005
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Sharpshooter vs. Grand Elf evaluation
After reading the question posed: "Sharpshooters or Grand Elves" Even though we are comparing a Level 3 unit to a Level 4 unit I decided to do some reasearch. Here is what I found:
1. The value of a sharpshooter when compared to a Grand Elf should be evaluated by looking at base statistics, terrain, artifacts, hero specialties, and hero spells.
2. Primary stats of the two show the most significant differences in defense, shots available, and damage. The differences lean in favor of the Sharpshooters.
3. Grass adds a bonus to Grand Elf of +1 speed and clover fields add a bonus of +2 luck to Sharpshooters.
4. Artifacts such as Unicorn's Mane Bowstring, Elven bow of cherrywood, and Angel Feathers affect damage bonus to both units. And of course Bow of the Sharpshooter assembled. If both heros carry all 3 artifacts but not assembled then refer back to base stats in which case sharpshooters retain higher value. If both have the assembled artifact then the battle has a possible stalemate. The Grand Elves now have a possibility of scoring higher damage or matching the damage of the Sharpshooters number for number. The Sharpshooters will most likely go first but only if Sir Mullich is not using the Grand Elves on grassy terrain.
5. The three most notable (excluding all spell-specializing heros)heros that could possibly make the most notable difference in the outcome of a debate on base stats for this particular argument are Ivor, Orrin, and Sir Mullich. Ivor closes the gap to a small margin for the primary stat difference with his special bonus he applies to the elves. Orrin raises the archery skill above and beyond the expert lv.(save the Orrin vs. Ivor debate for another post plz) Sir Mullich could possibly give the Grand Elves a speed bonus of +3 when playing on grassy fields.
 Note on unit speed in battles: If two units of the same speed are playing on the battlefield then the unit that was placed higher in the formation will go first. Units move from top to bottom on the battle field when being selected for who goes first. If both units, of equal speed, are at the top of the formation when battle starts then the first to go will be a random choice made by the computer with a 50% turnout in favor of both sides.
6. Almost any spell could affect the outcome of the battle adversely depending on everything associated with spell casting.(also a debate saved for another time)
7. Through all the testing I had also found another factor that does play a significant role in the question posed. That is unit cost. This might be interesting to some who had not previously known.
 Cost in Gold for Wood Elf: 200
Cost in Gold for Grand Elf: 225
Cost in Gold for Sharpshooter: 400
Cost in Gold for Gelu to upgrade a Wood Elf: 200
Cost in Gold for Gelu to upgrade a Grand Elf: 175
If you'll notice the difference for Gelu to upgrade both, Wood and Grand elves, adds up to the total cost of a sharpshooter. However......I decided to experiment with the "Castle Fort Upgrade" structure that will upgrade all creatures of 4th lv or lower for a reduced cost. Here are the results:
Cost in Gold to upgrade Wood Elf: 213
Total cost in Gold for Gelu to upgrade Grand Elf after using the fort: 388
The difference is 12 gold therefore if one upgrades his/her wood elves at the upgrade fort before letting Gelu upgrade them to Sharpshooters then that person would be saving 12 gold for each individual Sharpshooter made. Let's put this into perspective shall we?
Let's say you had 30 available both Grand and Wood elf units in your Rampart and you want to save money when converting them to Sharpshooters.
Step 1: Purchase 30 downgraded Wood Elves.
Step 2: Have Gelu take the Wood Elves to the nearest Castle Fort Upgrade structure on the map.
Step 3: First upgrade the Wood Elves into Grand at the Fort for 12 gold less each.
Step 4: Next Have Gelu upgrade the newly upgraded Grand Elves which will cost you 175 gold per unit.
Now you have 30 Sharpshooters after having paid a total of 11,640 gold. It would have cost you 12,000 gold to perform this but now you have saved 360 gold to add to your wonderful new dwarven treasury!
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted December 12, 2003 05:17 AM |
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I've always been curious about this myself ao I ran some hotseat tests with different situations.
I used 100 each of GE and SS and heroes with same stats and no battle secondary skills. I ran 5 tests for each of the following and averaged the results.
With no arts
On grass SS beat the GE with approx a loss of 5 SS.
GE with Golden Bow (SS attack first)
On grass SS beat GE with 15 lost SS
On dirt SS beat GE with 11 lost SS
GE with speed advantage, but not Golden Bow
On grass SS beat GE with 40 lost SS
Dirt not tested
GE with both speed advantage and Golden Bow
On grass GE beat SS with 43 lost GE
On dirt GE beat SS with 52 lost GE
Then I ran tests looking at the costs. 100 SS costs 40K gold which will buy about 178 GE. So those were the numbers I used.
No arts
On grass SS beat GE with 51 lost SS
GE with speed advantage
On grass GE beat SS with 55 lost GE
On dirt GE beat SS with 59 lost GE
GE with bow but not speed
On grass GE beat SS with 113 lost GE
I also ran a few tests shooting centuar captains, Silver Pegasus and dendroid Soldiers. The creatures did not attack the shooters. I only ran a few tests each and didn't record the numbers. This was 178 GE and 100 SS. All tests with no arts.
With creatures out of full damage range for the GE, the SS out killed all three creature stacks. Within full damage range for GE, the GE killed more creatures for each type. (I *think* it was about 20-30% more than the SS.
I also had the dendroids charge the shooters. The GE had half damage the first attack and full damage 2nd attack and 3rd attack. The GE killed all 50 dendroids before they reached them. The dendroids attacked the SS with 12 dendroids left.
Averaging half and full damage for the GE I think they had a slight overall advantage over the SS, but I didn't do enough tests to be conclusive.
Conclusion: In a real game without much gold the GE seems to have the advantage. With plenty of gold to upgrade, the SS had a big advantage UNLESS the hero has both golden bow and speed advantage.
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Milamber
Adventuring Hero
Magician of the greater path
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posted December 12, 2003 05:22 AM |
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Quote:
at close range SS would still win because it will shoot first and has 2x more dmg that GE has
but the GE have 2 shots so they do more damage than the SS in the longrun.
(i.e the chart i made above.)
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"....student of black robes and friend of Valheru...."
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binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted December 12, 2003 05:57 AM |
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You mean this chart?
Quote:
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SHARPSHOOTERS | GRANDELVES |GE turn X2
ATK: 12 | 9x2 |18
DEF: 10 | 5 -
SPD: 9 | 7 -
SHOTS: 32 | 24/2 |12
HEALTH: 15 | 15 -
SPECIAL: No Range Penalty | Shoots Twice |shoots one
DMG: 8-10 | 3-5
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First, the attack for the GE does not double, only the damage. With 2 shots the GE has base damage=6-10. The SS has base damage=8-10 which is slightly higher.
The SS still has +3 attack increasing their damage 15% against creatures with lower defense and 6% less penalty against creatures with higher defense. That's the reason I ran a few tests against both higher and lower defense creatures.
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Milamber
Adventuring Hero
Magician of the greater path
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posted December 12, 2003 11:08 AM |
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oh my mistake.
so even though you might get more grand elves for the price the sharpshooters are still better.
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"....student of black robes and friend of Valheru...."
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binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted December 14, 2003 03:44 AM |
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Yea, I agree that SS are better. What I'm saying is that there are situations when the GE are better.
If gold is tight there are much better ways to spend the money. The SS are very expensive for what you get. I've made the mistake more than once of upgrading to SS and later regretted spending the gold.
The biggest negative for SS is the cost compared to hit points. With only 15 hit points you can lose a lot of invested gold real fast.
On the other hand, they are great if you can afford them early in the game. Just a handfull of SS are real killers in early low level fights. They are also a big advantage in seiges.
Like just about everything else in HOMM it depends on the map and situation.
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted December 14, 2003 01:20 PM |
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tossers
all the BS stating the obvious and yet you have missed the most important part.
What makes sharpshooters such a pain to fight isnt just their no range penalty but combined with their high speed and high dmg they are lethal and you dont get to attack them early.
Because even if you are to block the SS (with for example silver pegs) you will only get to strike once with your shooters and after that your block fodder will be killed and the SS will get an open striking round at any of your units because of their 9 speed. And even if you will have haste your cent capts/unicorns (using rampart as an example now, but same thing goes for example fortress and dragflies using another fast flying unit as fodder) will only reach one SS stack.
And early in game you wont have no mass haste either, and by the time you get it you should have fast good enough units alrdy to kill the SS without losses.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted December 15, 2003 01:41 AM |
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Depending on the outcome makes both lethal but Stiven is right even if you got creatures in 7 stacks & trying to rush them they can shoot you down like a shooting range.
If you cant get to then round 1 or if ya know you can survive the inslaught to reach them then I would fight them without spells etc.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted December 15, 2003 02:05 AM |
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It depends on the hero stats.
If its independants, my monies on SSs.
If a hero has GElves but he has like, 5&5 for stats, the charts would be in GEs favor.
Sharp shooter/Grand Elf
ATK: 12 | 9+5
DEF: 10 | 5+5
SPD: 9 | 7 (this would give SS first shot change the numbers to 100 | 2 if you want)
SHOTS: 32 | 24 (12 turns)
HEALTH: 15 | 15
SPECIAL: No Range Penalty | Shoots Twice
DMG: 8-10 | 3-5
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What are you up to
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