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Ghost
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posted March 13, 2025 04:55 PM |
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In 2000, Russia condemned further NATO expansion..
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JollyJoker
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posted March 13, 2025 05:35 PM |
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blizzard said:
I never called them war-loving. You said that. This is how imaginary hate speech gets spread. You make up something I said that I didn't say and then I get in trouble for saying something that you said.
I said most Russians support expansion, which they do. It is seen as a healthy policy that benefits Russian interests and Russian national security.
Most Russians are not actively against the war and they definitely do not support losing what they took.
And I said that's BS. Polls and people's opinions are just a matter of what you ask how and what people are fed with their whole life. Most people have actually not a clue what "expansion" actually is in practise (who has to suffer what) or why that even would have any meaning for them. If you ask a Moskovit what the Kurils are and whether they think they were in any way important - what do you think the average Moskovit would answer? "The Kuriles? What the hell?", is my guess.
Our difference is, that you say, "Russians are this or that", while I say, "Russians have been fed with stuff (It started with "The Great Patriotic War") for a long, long time and propaganda works, especially when the state is controlling the media. In Russia the media have been controlled for a century, with a comparatively small phase of media freedom in between. Russians are mostly, what they are supposed to be - and what you can expect psychologically. They are no different from Americans - who are completely different than the rest of the world with a view on gun rights and personal gun ownership. You might say, that "Americans are gun-loving and trigger-happy (as opposed to the rest of the worls), but that's only because Americans grow up in a different legal environment than Europeans.
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Blizzard 
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posted March 13, 2025 07:33 PM |
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Edited by Blizzard at 19:48, 13 Mar 2025.
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That is paternalistic.
You don't know what other people want. Propaganda isn't effective unless it has something to grab onto from the start; something that it can take and then augment, like a pre-existing fear of something or someone. Russian distrust of NATO doesn't all come because of state-sponsored/sanctioned media.
Russians don't view Ukraine as a colony, like Britain looked at India. That is a ridiculous analogy. It is more layered than that. You can survey them and ask them about this stuff, if you weren't so deeply convinced that you already know what they want/need/feel/think more than what they do.
The average mindset in Russia is that life has continued well enough even after sanctions, that there is a legit danger of Ukraine being admitted in NATO, and that international institutions are corrupt and act with partiality towards Western nations and the interests in DC. The average person would also be unhappy with any peace accord that folded entirely to Ukraine.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 13, 2025 08:28 PM |
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Paternalistic? What is? Society? Sure.
But in any case you are wrong and you are naive. You completely disregard psychology. Think about the Milgram experiment. Ask yourself how Nazi Germany was even possible. Because Gernmans are genocidal by nature? And 1984 has made such an impression because everyone thinks, no, that kind of brain-washing would be completely impossible?
And the thin ice you are on shows because it shows because you go into the abstract without even relating to what I said. I think, you have a lot to learn about human nature and psychology.
Oh, and I EDIT this post to add, that you might want to have a look at Ukraine's history. The only reason, Russians aren't viewing Ukraine the same way than Britons view India is the fact that they are neighboring. It looks like an extension. But otherwise there isn't much difference. It's more like Poland. Ukraine has never been an integral part of Russia. It's a different culture.
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Blizzard
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posted March 13, 2025 09:43 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
It looks like an extension. But otherwise there isn't much difference. It's more like Poland.
It's not like Poland.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 13, 2025 09:55 PM |
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Blizzard
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posted March 13, 2025 10:07 PM |
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Ukraine and Russia have a complex relationship and history, with varying periods of Ukrainization and Russofication. Every situation is unique from every other situation, and the situation with Ukraine and Russia is likewise unique. An acknowledgement
and sensitivity towards mainstream perspectives by Russian people towards Ukraine and towards proxy powers operating with Ukraine will help with reaching peace and restoring international stability.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 13, 2025 10:38 PM |
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Sounds grown-up, at least. But it won't.
See, it doesn't matter what people think (or are influenced to think) they are entitled to. I mean, obviously.
If it did, we'd still have no rights for women. Come to think of it, we've got a long way to go.
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Blizzard
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posted March 13, 2025 11:04 PM |
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There is a give and take in diplomacy. Justice or different people's ideas of justice isn't the #1 priority right now with the current leaders on stage (and those leaders reflect public moods).
In order to make steep demands on Russia, Ukraine would need to be in a good position militarily, and it isn't.
There isn't a crystal clear oppressor vs oppressed dynamic between Russia and Ukraine. They have both committed acts of oppression and these have been documented. Neither of these countries rank very great with the way they treat their citizens.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 13, 2025 11:27 PM |
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I'm not sure I get your meaning. I don't think I know about Ukraine trying to annex Russian territory - but maybe I miss something here.
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Blizzard
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posted March 14, 2025 01:59 AM |
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It isn't a completely unprovoked war. Like, somebody just shows up and plants a flag in somebody's backyard. That is not correct.
That doesn't make it legal or ethical, and it still damages Russia's trustworthiness concerning its treaties, but it does affect how to handle the peace negotiations, because if there was good reason to believe Russia would be moving on into other places, like paving into eastern and central Europe, you would act very differently. You would want to defend Ukraine at all cost, dump whatever resources you can into Ukraine, and be uncompromising.
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Salamandre
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posted March 14, 2025 02:11 AM |
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For Russia is was perfectly legal, as they signed early February a mutual assistance treaty with Donetsk and Luhansk. Not validated by the West, exactly as they didn't validate the 3 referendums in Crimea, first in 1991 then last in 2014, where people by 3 times overwhelmingly voted either being autonomous then going back to Russia.
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Blizzard
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posted March 14, 2025 04:13 AM |
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Legal for Russia, not legal for the UN Charter. Territorial integrity and state independence are suppose to be inviolable, and under the UN charter, they are, which the international court of justice has repeatedly cited and which Russia has ignored.
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Salamandre
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posted March 14, 2025 07:30 AM |
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Israel doesn't give a damn about UN charter yet no action is taken. UN didn't give a damn about the non respect of Ukrainian constitution, in which is explicitly stated that all ethnic minorities should have same rights, yet the Russian one only was spoiled of fundamental rights, as the usage of the Russian language in medias, social platforms, culture and school instruction.
And I don't ever mention Minsk agreements where the heads responsible of its application, Germany and France leaders, made it clear on phone call that their only concern wasn't the respect of agreements, but giving time to Ukraine to get a better and bigger army army. Which they increasingly used to bomb the hell out of Russian population within Ukraine borders. So this can go back and forth for a while, depending how you look at.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 14, 2025 10:15 AM |
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Do I have to explain why I link to this?
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Blizzard
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posted March 15, 2025 05:41 PM |
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Edited by Blizzard at 17:50, 15 Mar 2025.
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How many bad analogies from history is that now? 5? 6? 7? I haven't been counting.
It's not like Czechoslovakia. How did NATO respond to Czechoslovakia? What about the UN? Oh that's right, neither of them existed, because it was 1938, and people owned radios and thought cigarettes were cool, and holding a peace conference in Jeddah would have been seen as totally crazy. It's almost as if the world was a vastly different place.
Russia's invasion is limited to Ukraine. It isn't a direct threat to the entire continent. I know some media outlets are spreading fear and saying that it is. After a peace agreement, Ukraine can be given a strong military with very strong air and missile defense systems. There isn't a fullproof way to guarantee there won't be a 2nd war in Ukraine, but even if there is, Russia is still contained most everywhere else.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 16, 2025 09:26 AM |
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Failed. And not unexpectedly at that. Hint: Compare methods.
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Blizzard
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posted March 16, 2025 05:47 PM |
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Edited by Blizzard at 17:54, 16 Mar 2025.
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Supposing the methods are "the same" (they aren't, because they never are) it is still going to be different if you use the same methods in a different environment.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 16, 2025 08:36 PM |
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The important thing isn't whether some detail will be different, the important thing is whether employing the same methods is intended to produce the same results.
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Blizzard
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posted March 17, 2025 12:39 AM |
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What results are that? What is Putin's Russia's goal?
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