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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 09:21 PM |
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Well, there was, for example, an investigation into the downed Boeing. Did it give something? Western experts cannot be trusted. The West and lies are synonyms.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 09:26 PM |
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AlexSpl said:
I wouldn't play with such things. This case definitely deserves an international investigation.
Here is a great analysis:
https://telegra.ph/Situaciya-v-Buche-CHto-bylo-na-samo-dele-04-03
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 09:27 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 21:30, 03 Apr 2022.
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I agree with that. But whom to trust then? Both sides cannot be trusted because they are at war with each other. I doubt Ukraine would show those crimes to the whole world just to be caught in a lie. It would be game over for Ukraine.
Of course, there are fakes. Fakes, uncontrollable by governments. But this case looks very real.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 09:31 PM |
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AlexSpl said:
I doubt Ukraine would show those crimes to the whole world just to be caught in a lie. It would be game over for Ukraine.
They have already been caught many times. The problem is people who point blank do not see the truth, just like you.
Did you look at the article?
https://telegra.ph/Situaciya-v-Buche-CHto-bylo-na-samo-dele-04-03
If you turn a blind eye to my data - what's the point of discussing ?
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 09:36 PM |
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Well, I don't read every news. I read lenta.ru, for example. Is it a good source of information from Russia? And you know, this one is far from being a pro-Ukrainian media.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 09:41 PM |
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I opened this site for the first time. It's just that this link was given in one good group in VK. I often read ordinary soldiers (or commanders) of Donbass - all these people are widely known in a narrow circle, they have a reputation, and they are far from propagandists.
That is, in such a "soldier" group, I found this link. The presentation of the material is solid (nothing to do with the hysterical Ukrainian media)
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 09:56 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 21:59, 03 Apr 2022.
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The main problem is in that the Russian military fight not for their homeland. If we read such news, say, from Voronezh, no one would blame Russia for defending itself. And Ukrainians defend their homeland. I don't believe you can torture soldiers to fight for their homeland. You can, actually, but it would be very ineffective war. But we see that Ukrainians stand and fight against the county to which many other countries would have given up to fight long ago. It says much about who is right and who is wrong.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 10:00 PM |
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Okay, so I looked through your "evidence" from telegraph website however it seems like it's just a composition of totally different theories which contradict each other, some assume there were no corpses but moving hands instead, some suggest that Ukrainians used artillery and killed those civilians. The only common thing there is that Russians didn't do anything. Do you have a consolidated theory that makes sense?
In other words before you throw links with those investigations let me understand what's your point first. Let me ask the same questions again.
1. How do you think, were there tens of corpses of civilians on the streets of Bucha after Russians left? Or all those corpses from the videos are staged?
2. If there were corpses, then how do you think they died?
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 10:06 PM |
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@AlexSpl,
You and I seemed to be discussing one issue, and as soon as you reached a dead end, you jumped to another (general question).
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 10:10 PM |
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@ihor,
In order to speak with confidence about something, you need to be a direct witness. I think that Russian soldiers will not kill really civilians. As far as I understand, there is a rule - "if a person has a weapon in his hands (even a Molotov cocktail), then he becomes a potential target for attack".
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 10:11 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 22:13, 03 Apr 2022.
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You cannot concentrate on secondary things, when you forgot the main one. Is Russia doing well resolving its main issues in Ukraine? Or we all just forgot why Russian troops are in Ukraine primarily? Think about that we are discussing the seeds of war, not its roots.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 10:13 PM |
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@AlexSpl,
my communication with you is more and more like a conversation with women (sorry, if that). It always seems to me that everything has already been discussed at least 10 times, but women again loop the conversation.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 10:19 PM |
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Ben, I just can't add anything to the discussion about the war crimes of Russia. That's all. There are many evidences, but you just throw counter-evidences, which could be just fake ones as well. So, I cannot continue this until there is new information.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 10:26 PM |
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Ben80 said:
@ihor,
In order to speak with confidence about something, you need to be a direct witness. I think that Russian soldiers will not kill really civilians. As far as I understand, there is a rule - "if a person has a weapon in his hands (even a Molotov cocktail), then he becomes a potential target for attack".
You're avoiding questions again. I understand that you don't believe that Russian soldiers will kill civilians and you're trying to find different versions to prove that didn't happen. The versions include:
1. There are no corpses at all, all videos are fake and staged
2. Ukrainians used artillery after Russians left, and civilians died because of that
3. Ukrainians saw white bands on civilians and by mistake thought the civilians were Russians who are also using white bands and Ukrainians killed civilians.
4. And now a new one - those were not civilians, they might have had Molotov cocktails.
Any sane person would agree that these versions contradict each other and that's why I asked for a consolidated version that makes sense.
-----
I agree that there should be direct witness to confirm things, but we have plenty of them! What about international journalists? AFP? At least they confirmed they saw over 20 dead bodies in civilian clothes. So can we at least agree that the corpses are REAL? This was my first question.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/03/they-were-all-shot-russia-accused-of-war-crimes-as-bucha-reveals-horror-of-invasion
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 10:27 PM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 22:29, 03 Apr 2022.
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By the way, here is the opinion of the writer Lev Vershinin - https://putnik1.livejournal.com/
he writes - "Staging. Bloody, but what to take from the Nazis?"
(https://putnik1.livejournal.com/9004100.html)
His opinion, of course, is not the ultimate truth, but I also read this person. He lives in Spain.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BD,_%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%B2_%D0%A0%D1%8D%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 10:36 PM |
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So what do we have here...
1. You say that one needs a witness to say confidently.
2. You ignore articles by real witnesses, reporters from the same location.
3. You give some posts by Lev Vershinin who probably have never been in Bucha and says everything was staged without any facts.
Where is your objective analysis, man?
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 10:39 PM |
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Oh and by the way, when reading the article of that Lev Vershinin, I laughed so hard at "by this Ukrainians prepare to invade Belarus". Is he insane? That's exactly what Ukraine needs and then after Belarus - Mars is next.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 10:45 PM |
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We are even not there. I don't think that any human being would like to experience all those atrocities first-hand. You can't be the same when you lose your closest relatives, home and leg. This is another version of you. And you cannot shell cities thinking your strike will kill only nationalists. Those disabled people which lost everything they loved and believed in aren't you and me. Even in peaceful times they used to be abandoned, while their comrades, lucky ones, are drinking vodka bolstering with their "battle achivements". Every war was and is exactly this.
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 10:56 PM |
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Don't try to argue with that Ben80 guy. He is a lost soul.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 03, 2022 11:30 PM |
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Like any other war this one will be over eventually, leaving the world in the new reality. And I don't think it will be the optimal one for anyone. You cannot just bam-bam-bam everything, not just human lives and infrastracture, but also the international relations, and think that you did everything right. Another shameful chunk of history for those people from the future who will be immortal.
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