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JollyJoker
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posted October 05, 2023 03:41 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Galaad said:
that attack was unthinkable
So unthinkable that the US has sent more than 46 billion in security and weapons assistance to Ukraine, between 2014 and 2021. While Ukraine not being in NATO or any other military alliance.
Sounds close to Taiwan situation, where a possibility of a Chinese attack is growing, wonder why.
Nonsense.
You can also check exactly what the Ukraine has and what they got when: click
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Salamandre
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posted October 05, 2023 06:39 PM |
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JJ, your arguments since the start were that there was no intention of making Ukraine a NATO member. When I sent you link to NATO summit in 2021 were it is clearly written "Ukraine WILL become a NATO member", all you had in response was
JollyJoker said:
That's just words.
That's just trolling from you.
As for this new issue, I send you more words :
46 billions sent to Ukraine since 2014
According to DOD, USA packages prior to 2022 provided sniper rifles, rocket-propelled grenade launchers, counter-artillery radars, Mark VI patrol boats, electronic warfare detection and secure communications, satellite imagery and analysis capability, counter-unmanned aerial systems (UAS), air surveillance systems, night vision
devices, and equipment to support military medical treatment and combat evacuation procedures.
U.S. assistance makes up 90% of Ukraine's foreign military aid, article from 2019.
They're absolutely different armed forces from what we had before. Before 2014, even in military doctrine, we didn't have any enemies. After 2014, the Ukrainian armed forces became a real instrument to fight against aggression.
That's only a first step, though, as Ukraine still has a long way to go to build up its navy and air defenses to deter a full-scale Russian attack.
Everyone is shocked how unthinkable was, except Ukraine and US.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 05, 2023 09:36 PM |
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If you could read you would see that the help from 2014-2021 is about 2.5 billion and the other 44 billions was help given after the start of the war.
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artu
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posted October 06, 2023 02:53 AM |
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Edited by artu at 02:53, 06 Oct 2023.
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On this international magnitude, technical details about procedure only matter if you are not in charge. If you have economical and military power to back it up, the law will follow. So if U.S.A. wanted Ukraine in, they would be in NATO, unless, miraculously, all other major members insist on opposing such a move relentlessly. It is that simple. And it doesnt even matter if Ukraine is an official member, it can still act as a NATO base through special treaties, weapon deals etc.
So, at some level, the conflict is really all about how you evaluate Ukraine itself:
1- Ukraine is a sovereign, developed European state. A functioning democracy that has full capability of deciding its own future, including any form of Western alliance.
2- Ukraine is an artificial puppet state which is being used as a pawn for a proxy war between Russia and the NATO alliance led by U.S.A. , simply through coups, espionage, corruption and intervention by global finance.
If people tend to support position one, they are strictly against any argument that takes into account the Russian perspective. Because let's face it, you can be against invasion of Iraq or Syria or Taiwan just as well, but the level of agression you impose on your opposition becomes significantly more serious when you consider the invaded as "one of our own." Then, where does it stop, then, it can happen to anybody. Notice how Doomforge emphasizes that Ukraine is a European country and so on...
Reading about its history, there seems to be a social divide within Ukraine itself also, the mostly catholic West Ukraine seems to be culturally more attached to Europe, where as the East remains culturally closer to Russia. There are even theories about how this war will divide the country in two in the end and Poland (Western alliance) will have part of west Ukraine and Russia will be okay with that as long as it gets its eastern dominance back. But I dont know how valid these estimations are, it is after all, the internet.
I think Ukraine can neither be reduced into a Banana Republic nor it is as independent as some people wish to think it is. It is somewhere in the middle which is a very dangerous "state" to be in. You are neither a neocolony nor you have the political backbone to put your internal and foreign affairs according to the interests of your own people. This is the type of situation that end up in countries being torn out.
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Salamandre
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posted October 06, 2023 09:28 AM |
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Insightful post, artu. However, evaluation without complete information will always remain one-sided and superficial.
Russell Brand taking on western propaganda.
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artu
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posted October 06, 2023 09:44 AM |
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What exactly do you find one-sided about what I said?
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Ghost
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posted October 06, 2023 12:45 PM |
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Edited by Ghost at 13:02, 06 Oct 2023.
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Are some brain-assed beings? No hope someone is better than Russian propaganda or even brain-assed fred, thus Russia spoke brain-assed level that Finnish people haven't electric in Xmas party or toilet papers, for example. No one could believe in Russian TV.. Read so a little wiser! This link English translated Fin-news from Russian propaganda..Ok sorrow-assed ruble, when MIBC, ok the Moscow International Business Center, you can buy two room, one kitchen and two WC, in about 70m2 pays €105,000!! We are speaking a true, and they put a trash things in a low brain-ass, no one could believe in Russian TV..
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JollyJoker
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posted October 06, 2023 02:45 PM |
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We all tend to see this from a position of detachedness, weighing this and that in an attempt to identify the rights and wrongs and the guilty parties and what not.
But that is the wrong perspective here. The perspective this and every other war needs to be looked from is that of the victims. The victims don't care about all these considerations. And there are a lot of victims here, starting with Russian and Ukrainian soldiers and Ukrainian civilians, whether they died or were wounded or raped or bombed out of a home, and ending with the people who starve because the Ukrainian crops are destroyed or not delivered to where they are needed.
And from that perspective, starting the war was wrong. There is nothing to win, there's only been loss so far, and since it's been PUTIN who gave the order to cross the Ukrainian border, fire missiles onto Ukrainian targets and drop bombs on them, it's PUTIN who is ultimately responsible. He obviously wants something for which he is prepared to sacrifice thousands of lives, Ukrainians, Russians and indirectly others, and no good can come from that.
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Salamandre
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posted October 06, 2023 05:44 PM |
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artu said:
What exactly do you find one-sided about what I said?
Nothing in your post, I was talking generally. You say it depends "how you evaluate" Ukraine, I observe most people do such evaluations while not being properly informed, both sides. On such magnitude conflicts, basically affecting everyone on earth - grain, fossils shortage, prohibiting all kind of information from one side - therefore not being able to understand its perspectives - is the worst thing to do if peace is the goal.
So my take is that peace is not the goal, but military destruction.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 06, 2023 08:01 PM |
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What is there to evaluate? There are the people who order death, there are people who earn money with delivering tools to bring death and there are people who die.
If there wouldn't be people ordering death, less money would be earned with the toold to delivering it and less people would die.
That's the perspective of us all here, because I guess that no one here would order death or earn money with delivering te tools, but instead we would be the ones who'd die in effect.
Ohrainians have the right to fight. If they don't they surrender unconditionally and will be destroyed as a country, which is what Putin promised.
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Ghost
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posted October 06, 2023 08:18 PM |
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Can I tell you (JJ)?
When people die in war, who pays payment/indemnity? Ok we are hoping to Russia pays all, if the war is a loss. We (Finnish people) paid to the Soviet in WW2, but not the bodies. I hope the world's first Russia pays to Ukraine. 
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JollyJoker
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posted October 06, 2023 08:27 PM |
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Reparations are not a solution. And Russia won't pay anything. Instead, IF Ukraine survives this, it will be "the West" - me and you - who'll pay.
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Ghost
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posted October 06, 2023 08:31 PM |
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No worries! If anyone hears about this, and we will keep the sanctions on until Russia pays. If an idea is welcome!
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JollyJoker
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posted October 06, 2023 10:01 PM |
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Won't happen. IF Ukraine survives, Russia won't pay. Instead Western corporations will rush in, do a lot of reconstruction on credits given by the ECB to Ukraine and then Ukraine will join the EC, being in debt.
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Ghost
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posted October 06, 2023 10:52 PM |
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Ok 
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Doomforge
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posted October 07, 2023 11:32 AM |
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Russia will not pay war reparations - there is nothing that can make/force them to. An unconditional surrender against NATO would, but nobody wants a war like that. Everything else can - at best - make the Ukrainians retain their sovereignty and their pre-war borders. Nobody will compensate them for dead soldiers, murdered civilians and destroyed infrastructure.
Unfortunately, life is not a Disney movie where the bully ultimately gets taught a lesson and apologizes.
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Ghost
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posted October 07, 2023 01:03 PM |
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Edited by Ghost at 13:05, 07 Oct 2023.
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And we live through the millennium. Russia sees Ukraine as the most valuable thing in the world. What? I don't get it.
Now the rise of geopolitics, someone from Slovakia, nuclear weapons exercises in Novaya Zemlya in Russia, in Lop Nur in China and in Nevada National Security Site in USA. The last nuclear weapons exercises were 1990 in the Soviet, and 1992 in the US.. And Russia also canceled the nuclear weapons treaty..
All the crap must to stop.
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Ghost
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posted October 07, 2023 01:24 PM |
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Heh I meant nuclear weapons tests, ok..
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Salamandre
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posted October 08, 2023 10:31 AM |
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Amazing how people just chew information without questioning what's behind, what it means and what goals it seeks.
It was the USA who first withdrew from nuclear pacts as INF, which limited the deployment of nuclear weapons. At the same time, NATO, which is US military expansion and nothing else, decides to expand up to Russian borders, but now without any limitation on what it can implant as military installations.
This went unreported and unexplained in our mainstream propaganda, but now that Putin suspends (and not cancels) from the treaty limiting nuclear arsenal - which is basically the number of bombs each one has, then emphasizes that Russia will not proceed to any nuclear test, unless USA does it first, it makes the headlines.
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Doomforge
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posted October 08, 2023 12:46 PM |
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Salamandre said:
NATO, which is US military expansion and nothing else, decides to expand up to Russian borders
NATO doesn't "decide" anything regarding one's will to join them. It's a sovereign country's decision to apply for a NATO membership.
You know why countries near Russia do so?
Because they are afraid of your beloved Russia invading them.
As Ukraine's case shows - rightfully so.
And you know who decides who joins and who doesn't after a country applies? NATO. Not Russia. Because:
To put it simply: it's none of Russia's business.
How about this: stop invading, raping, pillaging, making nuclear threats and instead work with your neighbors so that they are actually interested in allying with you and falling under your protection and not NATO?
Yeah, pretty hard for a soviet mind, eh?
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